Omar is back

[Signals.Cpl]

That is how old I was and I was not 15 and 10 months...... next question. Nor is any Cadet under 16 in the Armed Forces, not even the Militia.

So? What is your point? You think that the 54 days between his capture and his 16th birthday would have made him any wiser? This is like arguing that you are not an adult at 17 years and 10 months but are magically responsible for your actions at the age of 18 years and 1 minute.

Recruited and sent to "camp" by his father at the age of 14. He began as a "child soldier", and he was 15 when the US attack occurred.

You mean like the Cadets that are send to camp, given military style training including for some weapons handling? Many join the reserves at their earliest opportunity. Now, if you want to argue that he is an idiot with out the ability to think because he is 15 go right ahead, but then we need to treat every 14,15 and 16 year old the same way, they commit a robbery, rape or murder just give them a nice lecture and let them go since they did not know right from wrong.

I could not sign up at 15 , a couple months shy, 4 months shy, 1 year shy, 1 week shy, 1 day shy.

But the fact that at age 15 and 355 days you have pretty much the same mind set as age 16 docent change. Again, either we let anyone under the age of 16 or whatever other magical age you choose go because they are lacking the ability to determine right from wrong just say so, I for one hold the belief that at age 14,15 or 16 young adults are responsible for their actions and should be held to account for their actions.

Regardless, you wish to play semantics. IN WAR one side is on the offensive and one is on the defensive. You need not play with the facts to make your point. The evidence as it stands in all court documents and testimonies states the operation clearly.

Yes, and in this war he chose to go and fight against his country and its allies.

The Current Afghan government of Hamid Kharzi has no need, no desire, nor legal precendent to take an unwanted foreigner prisoner, let alone one being held in US custody.

Exactly why would Afghanistan want a Canadian?

Because he decided to fight the government of Afghanistan and fought on the side of the Taliban and I believe that they deserve to punish him in any way they find fit. Also since he fought on the side of the Taliban the US should return him to the organization that he fought for or wait until the end of the war to release him back to them.

All true all factual, and he did this between the age of 14 and 15.

And if he had done it at age 16 or 17 it would be different?

You have swung full circle as you tried to justify a Canadian Soldier , trained by real soldiers starting at the age of 16.

I don't have to justify anything, I have had the pleasure to work with many soldiers who joined the military at 16 and they were more than enough proof that a 16 year old is capable of determining right and wrong.

So yes, you had a 15 year old, engaging in combat missions trained by Foreign Terrorist cells to do exactly as you stated above.

A 15 year old trained to build and deploy IED's that do not discriminate between soldier and civilian, so yes a 15 year old who was trained to blow people up without regard to wether they were soldier or civilian. A 15 year old who likely caused more deaths through his work than we know about or will ever know about, so there is no comparison between what he did and what CF members do, what I am trying to point out is that 16 year olds are capable of determining right from wrong and in some cases even though their parents might have chosen not to delve in the subject.

First the whining. I normally appreciate your posts, although I fully respect Army Guys posts. When I read your post, it has a tinge of whining to it.

In other words, you are currently Whining about the outcome.

I wouldn't argue that point, I am whining, because he will be rewarded for the murder we know he committed and the others that he probably is responsible for.

No, I expect justice was served and a 15 year old enemy combatant has spent 11 years in prison, been and subjected to a very miserable existence for his actions.

He spend 10 years in prison.

And there is still an 8 year conviction to be served, which was the sentence provided by the Military court.

And lets see how much of the 8 years he will serve or the parade he will receive when he is set free.

A person cannot be charged twice for the same crime. The US Military has Incarcerated, charged, convicted and sentenced the offender.

The US government has decided to return him to Canada.

As I said, some people don't want to accept justice.

He was charged for the crimes he committed against the US, but I would say that he has not been held to account for the crimes he committed against 1) Canada 2) Afghanistan.

You like to rah rah the Conservative Government. Well I supported the previous omsbudmen who was actively supporting the Veterans and their requirements. And we know what the Conservatives did about that......

I would beg to differ, I don't support the conservatives, I support their policies and decisions. If they do something that does not appeal to me I do not support it.

[Signals.Cpl]

As mentioned before, the laws of double jeapardy could apply, but I don't believe ANYONE wants the details of a criminal trial in a public civilian court. He has been released to the Civilian Canadian Government, not to the Canadian Military.

If you had wanted him released to the Canadian Military , he would have been charged HERE first and not by the United States Military. The United States Military did NOT release him to the Canadian Military.

The Canadian Military did not request for his transfer for such charges nor did the Canadian Military ever charge Khadr with treason in 11 years. The same could be said for the Civilian Government. The Crown did not attempt to lay a charge against Khadr in 11 years.

And what does the Canadian military have to do with this? The CF has no authority over civilians, DND is not a Law enforcement agency to anyone other than it's own. I am pretty sure that the military does not deal with treason unless it is directly tied with a member committing the act and even then it would be doubtful that the military has the authority to charge him with anything.

[scribblet]

The General is not his family. The point of scribblets post was not to judge him based on his family but actually looked at the family support unit. I would say by the looks of the family outcomes, it is not your typical suburban Canadian family and not the life that average Canadian children would have been subjected to.

I would think he is going to require ALOT more support then that once released from Prison. And the American General will not be in Canada to help with the process...

I did mean that, he stands a chance of becoming a decent upright citizen if he has a supportive family who can help him to integrate into our society so he can become a good citizen.

How likely his family will be able to do that given their terrorist ties/leanings ?

Another factor would be his Mosque and what/how they teach him.

Having said that, he was a 14 year old soldier who fought against us, not with us, the odds are IMO he's allready too far radicalized.

Edited September 30, 2012 by scribblet

[kraychik]

Nothing to do about right or left. Stating an opinion isn't a discussion. Debate the points.

Nobody is forcing you to participate in this thread, or even to be here on MLW. If it's that unbearable for you, there's a red 'X' at the top right of your browser window. All you ever do is try to shut down discussions that are in any way related to Islamism or contemporary terrorism. It's so transparent.

[kraychik]

Without facts or a proposal to base a discussion on, it's nothing but stating of opinions back and forth. Not a productive discussion.

Poster 1: Harper sucks !

Poster 2: Harper rocks !

Poster 1: Harper sucks !

Etc.

Our "forum facilitator", ladies and gentlemen!

[scribblet]

Sheez, most of this is an opinion, what the heck, in fact after 2 -3 pages most discussions go off on tangents unrelated to the original topic or unrelated to good governance anyhoo.

[Michael Hardner]

All you ever do is try to shut down discussions that are in any way related to Islamism or contemporary terrorism.

Not at all - I'm interested in discussion as defined in the Rules and Guidelines and those discussions trend towards the unacceptable.

[Michael Hardner]

Our "forum facilitator", ladies and gentlemen!

I think you misunderstood: I'm not in favour of the types of discussions I was outlining there.

[scribblet]

Not at all - I'm interested in discussion as defined in the Rules and Guidelines and those discussions trend towards the unacceptable.

IMO over the last few years the rules and guidelines are rarely fully adhered to.

[Michael Hardner]

IMO over the last few years the rules and guidelines are rarely fully adhered to.

Well, we're drifting the thread, but the proportion of posts, and posters reported on is a small minority and the proportion upon which the reports are actioned by the moderators is even smaller.

[Keepitsimple]

I'm glad that our government delayed as long as possible - it shone a light on a gaping hole in our immigration and citizenship legislation. Our forefathers, previous Prime Ministers and Parliaments could never have foreseen the despicable nature of an entire family like the Khadr's. They could not have foreseen terrorism and the fact that people like the Khadrs could obtain citizenship while hating the very country and the culture that they are "joining". 15 years old or not, Khadr nor his family deserve to have Canada bending over backwards to protect their rights. Their rights HAVE been protected - but slowly. Enough light has been cast on this family to provide Canadians with the knowledge and the will to discuss legislation that will prevent families like the Khadrs from becoming Canadians in the first place. That is the issue that has to be addressed. We are saddled with Khadr and have to find ways to make the best of the situation - but we need to stop this outrageous abuse of Canadian generosity from ever happening again. Jason Kenney is plugging the holes and hopefully, if a situation as disgraceful as this occurs again, we'll have better recourse than we do today.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Keepitsimple

[Deuce]

Nobody is forcing you to participate in this thread, or even to be here on MLW. If it's that unbearable for you, there's a red 'X' at the top right of your browser window. All you ever do is try to shut down discussions that are in any way related to Islamism or contemporary terrorism. It's so transparent.

I'm glad somebody else finally noticed this.

Not at all - I'm interested in discussion as defined in the Rules and Guidelines and those discussions trend towards the unacceptable.

Define "trend towards the unacceptable"... if by unacceptable in your mind than I understand where you are coming from.

Well, we're drifting the thread,

No, unfortunately you're drifting the thread.. Just like the other 3 "muslim" threads you thought were trending towards the unacceptable

--------------------

[eyeball]

I recall how pedantic and anal the sycophants get whenever they're dissecting the words and terms in the conventions and declarations they think get us off the hook for our war crimes. And then I see this.

So? What is your point? You think that the 54 days between his capture and his 16th birthday would have made him any wiser? This is like arguing that you are not an adult at 17 years and 10 months but are magically responsible for your actions at the age of 18 years and 1 minute.

GTFOH. You morally challenged savages are not the least bit willing to give this kid any break whatsoever for the fact he was 8 when his brainwashing started. That is just utterly depraved and that's all there is too it.

Edited September 30, 2012 by eyeball

[kraychik]

I recall how pedantic and anal the sycophants get whenever they're dissecting the words and terms in the conventions and declarations they think get us off the hook for our war crimes. And then I see this.

GTFOH. You morally challenged savages are not the least bit willing to give this kid any break whatsoever for the fact he was 8 when his brainwashing started. That is just utterly depraved and that's all there is too it.

He's not a kid. He's 26 years old.

Here's the family he'll move back in with, and hopefully his beautiful mother, sister, and brother will assist him with his ongoing reformation to prevent recidivism. Fast forward to 3:00, and then to 4:45 to meet his mother and sister who live in Toronto and are Canadian citizens. Get some insight into their attitudes.

[Michael Hardner]

Define "trend towards the unacceptable"... if by unacceptable in your mind than I understand where you are coming from.

You can check the Rules and Guidelines. Coming onto this forum and posting "I don't like this" without evidence or ability to create progressive dialogue is trolling.

[eyeball]

He's not a kid. He's 26 years old.

He's an innocent victim and we're just one more link in the chain of guilty pricks who've been screwing him over.

Get some insight into their attitudes.

You didn't hear me when I said his mother should be charged with illegally indoctrinating him into becoming a soldier?

[Signals.Cpl]

I recall how pedantic and anal the sycophants get whenever they're dissecting the words and terms in the conventions and declarations they think get us off the hook for our war crimes. And then I see this.

GTFOH. You morally challenged savages are not the least bit willing to give this kid any break whatsoever for the fact he was 8 when his brainwashing started. That is just utterly depraved and that's all there is too it.

So from now on we will ask rapists, murderers and every other criminal if they were brainwashed since the age of 8. If they were brainwashed starting at a young age they automatically will be released with a pat on the back and an apology for a crappy childhood?

There are many people who grew up to become proper and productive members of society in spite of what their parents did rather than because of what their parents did and there are even more who became criminals inspire of having good law abiding and loving parents. Is this going to become an automatic defence? I had a crappy childhood and criminals for parents who brainwashed me from an early age therefore I am innocent of any and all crimes I subsequently committed even though I was at an age when I could or should know the difference between good and bad?

[Bonam]

He's an innocent victim and we're just one more link in the chain of guilty pricks who've been screwing him over.

[eyeball]

So from now on we will ask rapists, murderers and every other criminal if they were brainwashed since the age of 8. If they were brainwashed starting at a young age they automatically will be released with a pat on the back and an apology for a crappy childhood?

Well in the first place we're not talking about a rapist, murderer or any other run of the mill criminal however their circumstances should be taken into account, and they should be rehabilitated if these are found wanting before being judged by experts as to whether they can be safely released.

None of this should of course be conducted with the pure vile vindictiveness you seem to crave in our justice vengeance system.

The apology for the crappy childhood should come from the people responsible for it. Then they should be punished.

There are many people who grew up to become proper and productive members of society in spite of what their parents did rather than because of what their parents did and there are even more who became criminals inspire of having good law abiding and loving parents. Is this going to become an automatic defence?

I had a crappy childhood and criminals for parents who brainwashed me from an early age therefore I am innocent of any and all crimes I subsequently committed even though I was at an age when I could or should know the difference between good and bad?

Not automatically...but in your case I'd reflect on the utter lack of empathy you've displayed towards Omar Khadr, write you off as a lost cause and crowd you into a cell with a rapist, a left wing one just to rub it in and somewhere up on Baffin Island preferably.

[eyeball]

Looking forward for your turn in line are you?

[Guest American Woman]

So? What is your point? You think that the 54 days between his capture and his 16th birthday would have made him any wiser? This is like arguing that you are not an adult at 17 years and 10 months but are magically responsible for your actions at the age of 18 years and 1 minute.

Ironically, it seems that if he had been captured 6 months earlier, he wouldn't have been considered a child soldier. The definition/guidelines used to be under 15, but was changed to 18 that February.

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, Article 38, (1989) proclaimed: "State parties shall take all feasible measures to ensure that persons who have not attained the age of 15 years do not take a direct part in hostilities. However, people who are over the age of 15 but still remain under the age of 18 are still voluntarily able to take part in combat as soldiers. The Optional protocol on the involvement of children in armed conflict to the Convention that came into force in 2002 stipulates that its State Parties "shall take all feasible measures to ensure that persons below the age of 18 do not take a direct part in hostilities and that they are not compulsorily recruited into their armed forces" link

--------------

The protocol came into force on 12 February 2002. Khadr was captured on July 27, 2002.

[scribblet]

He's an innocent victim and we're just one more link in the chain of guilty pricks who've been screwing him over.

You didn't hear me when I said his mother should be charged with illegally indoctrinating him into becoming a soldier?

Charge the parents with indoctrination, wow, that would be a slippery slope. Maybe 'child' endangerment although he wasn't a child. I suppose their views haven't changed, he'll be going back to the same atmosphere and beliefs.

Did he go willingly with his father to fight, or was he forced to go under some terrible threat ?

[eyeball]

Convention on the Rights of the Child blah blah blah.

How about when kids are compulsorily recruited into an armed force when they're 8? It's their own damn fault if they're not rescued before they grow a moustache?

You freakin' people make me want to kick the shit out of something.

[Guest American Woman]

How about when kids are compulsorily recruited into an armed force when they're 8? It's their own damn fault if they're not rescued before they grow a moustache?

You freakin' people make me want to kick the shit out of something.

How about quoting me correctly? And after that, see if you have the dexterity to kick the shit out of yourself.

Edited September 30, 2012 by American Woman

[Guest]

You freakin' people make me want to kick the shit out of something.

And that's just for having opinions. Imagine what you'd want to do if someone destroyed a couple of your skyscrapers full of office workers.