Ontario Disability

Jiblethead · September 29, 2012

ODSP is all too common in my town. There are way too many able people that collect a monthly handout simply because they are too lazy or stupid to have a job and be productive. A lot of them are drug addicts, who make no effort to get off drugs, and no effort to find work. There are also people who lie, pretending to be disabled or insane. There are also skores of people collecting unemployment benefits, while pretending to look for work. It is far too easy to leech off the system in this country.

Michael Hardner · September 29, 2012

Hi Jiblethead - please read the Rules and Guidelines above. You need to make sure that your posts generate good discussion. There aren't any supporting links, or data backing up your opinion on your town (whatever that is?).

madmax · September 29, 2012

Hi Jiblethead - please read the Rules and Guidelines above. You need to make sure that your posts generate good discussion. There aren't any supporting links, or data backing up your opinion on your town (whatever that is?).

Possibly one of the best articles on Job losses and Ontario Works was written last year, continuing 3 years of pain in London Ontario. This is startling as London is a very well educated and finance driven city.

The Anedotal evidence above is just that. An opinion, and an observation but peel the layers off the onion and see what is really happening and as of last year, it wasn't good.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/06/10/18266391.html

Just some highlights.

City staff brace for welfare flood

London's mounting job losses threaten to swamp the city's welfare rolls, a scenario "scaring the hell" out of the city's social services department

The London area shed 6,400 jobs over the last year, but the unemployment rate has changed little because people have given up looking for work, Statistics Canada reported Friday.

The bleak job figures will put even more pressure on Mayor Joe Fontana to achieve his goal of creating 10,000 jobs over his mandate

Though the unemployed have stopped looking for work, some may have returned to school and others may be waiting until their savings are depleted before filing for social assistance

But Fair fears many are waiting to apply for Ontario Works because they can't receive welfare if they have money or a car valued at more than $10,000.

"They may be just waiting, sitting at home, burning through their assets" before going on social assistance, Fair said.

The article covers the diverse problems hitting the region.

Now, IMHO, with that many skilled people out of work..... why would I consider to hire someone with drug addictions and a poor work ethic to my firm, first?

Since 2007 London started to Hemorage. The housing market has been in decline. The stimulus in construction has ended...

And quite frankly anyone who thinks that one is going to have a great life on $550 a month (single male) before Rent would be foolish to trade their working security for such "Luxury".

Finger pointing to anecdotal is always fun.

I recall once a large number of people hating the "welfare" family down the road. It turned out that the Welfare hotline was called and sure enough... no one in the household was on the dole.

We all have an anecdotal story.

I got lots on Poor University students with heavy tuition debt and no job 3 to 6 months after graduating. Its either welfare or waiting on tables or a combination of both.

But the concern is not if someone is on welfare, its

Why are they there now?

What has changed?

And will this be the end of the line or the security of person to start a new beginning.

I got no use for those who point fingers at those affected the most by this recession.

I have watched people lose their homes, their cars, their families during the 1 to 2 years it takes to turn things around again. And then its rebuilding from the bottom up.

No Canadian likes one who abuses a system.

I can't recall which person it was that was on Welfare that wreaked havoc on my associates pensions, or caused 5 and 6 figure losses to investments......

Must have been that welfare recipient Maddof.....

See their is such a thing as corporate handouts and securities.

If one is breaking the law, they are breaking the law.

Don't confuse those who break the law with those who are people in need.

Anymore then you confuse a stock investor with a criminal such as maddof.

One Brush , a bucket of tar and feathers.

have fun.

Jiblethead · September 29, 2012

question, do you think it is too easy to attain disability? Is the screening process rigorous enough? Or can anyone fake it and get their free handout?

Is it too easy to gain unemployment benefits? The rules on unemployment benefits have recently changed. I'm not sure what exactly has changed, but apparently you don't get them for as long, and they are also much harder to obtain.

madmax · September 29, 2012

question, do you think it is too easy to attain disability? Is the screening process rigorous enough? Or can anyone fake it and get their free handout?

A doctor is required to document someone for ODSP. This can take up to 6 months or longer.

Can you prove that they are faking? It only takes proof to have someone removed. That is because it is "Fraud".

I dare you to try to "fake" the screening process and receive ODSP.

Last night I hosted dinner with one of those "fakers". My wife had to cut her meat for her as she is paralyzed on one side of her body.

Is it too easy to gain unemployment benefits? The rules on unemployment benefits have recently changed. I'm not sure what exactly has changed, but apparently you don't get them for as long, and they are also much harder to obtain.

EI was changed back in 1995. The eligibility for EI has changed little. You pay into it.

EI ran a $56Billion Surplus that was taken and used for other pet projects by the government.

EI payouts were reduced back in 1995.

55% is not alot of money to receive from your base wage.

If you earned $10.25 you would get $5.50 on EI.

If you make $20 you would get $10 in EI.

However, you have to pay it back particularly if you make over $46,000 or such.

ALso any EI is deducted from your severance. Also both Severance and EI is taxed.

This could easily put somene over the threshold.

EI benefits have always fluctuated based upon region. The higher the Unemployment at the time of your termination or layoff, the longer or shorter you will be able to collect EI.

EI requires you to provide a list of all email, hardcopy and phone correspondence for your jobsearch.

EI will Terminate, fine and BAN for 5 years or more, anyone engaged in fraud or that mistakenly files their claims incorrectly or takes a trip outside of Canada.

EI imho is a support mech for a slow bleed.

Anyone who is used to earning a wage of $40,000 or more is unlikely to make ends meet while on EI.

Anyone making closer to $10 prior to termination is unlikely to make ends meet while on EI.

As there are generally more minimum wage jobs , its regular that the transistion back into teh workforce is quicker for lower waged.

The % of people who pay into EI and would be eligible to collect is around 60%.

I recall a couple gentlemen with 40 years, yes, 40 years of experience not yet 65 and collecting their first EI cheque.

They were shocked and startled by the interrogation process, and a bit bitter as they had never previously collected EI in their life.

The biggest change in EI was the Conservative government to fail to provide to the Ontario Government their portion of the EI training monies.

Thus retraining took a kick in the teeth as the ads ran and the retraining and self employment programs had no actual funding.

In 2009 an election was averted as the CPC worked with the NDP to extend EI in Regions of greater hardship. This added 20 weeks to those with 30 years of experience or 55 years of age.

The demographic of Diane Finleys riding, the Minister who prescides over EI.

So...if you ever remember her statement

"We are NOT going to pay people to lay on the couch"

It wasn't backed up with training funds, as that would have bankrupted the country, also they had already given away $8 Billion in Corporate tax breaks to the very companies who laid off the majority of these employees.

In the end, the Conservatives quietly paid people to "stay home" or more accurately, continue to seek work vs seek training, until the market corrected.

Obviously its better today tehn in 2009. ALOT better.

But there is a long ways to go, and those stats from London demonstrat that.

By the way Jibblethead.

Welcome to MLW, I see you have posted alot since your arrived.

Edited September 29, 2012 by madmax

Michael Hardner · September 29, 2012

Thanks for posting some substantive information Madmax - it makes for a much better discussion than just personal takes from one person's perspective.

Topaz · September 29, 2012

First of all, London has a 8% unemployment, with the Fords closure adding to that. Most people on EI paid into some for years and years, with not collecting. Workers of certain age will have problems finding workers because companies don't want them. I would think anyone on disability is on there because they need it and you have to have a doctors reference to usually get it.

Jiblethead · September 30, 2012

unfortunately, i personally know several people who have faked their way into obtaining disability. One person convinced the doctor he had done too many drugs, and had gone insane. He continued on to tell the doctor he thought the city hall was run by the free masons, and he was going to burn it down. He also claimed he had vivid halucinations and withdrawl symptoms due to drug use. None of which are true. He has been collecting disability for over a year now.

And also, i do appreciate the facts on EI. I do realise that unemployment is on the rise, London has been getting hit for years now, and I myself have been unemployed for about 6 months. I do not collect benefits, because I still have some money saved, and I am still able to find some small time cash jobs in the meantime.

In order to collect EI, you must prove you are seeking employment. This is extremely easy to fake, all you have to do is send out resumes, and if you land an interview, it is pretty easy to intentionally blow it. I know several people who have been doing this for a few years now, they collect over 1000 a month, and even do some work to make extra money, while not letting the government know.

No system we have is perfect, there will always be ways to slip through the cracks. We need to apply stricter processes for people to attain disability or EI. The people who actually deserve it get it, which is a great thing. There are just too many people out there getting a free ride.

Shady · September 30, 2012

Ontario Disability abuse is a problem. There are a lot of young, able-bodied people that seem to qualify for assistance for whatever reasons. But I'm not sure it's as big of a problem as OHIP fraud.

One of the biggest problems in Ontario right now, is new commers to the province, that apply and recieve permenant resident status, or Canadian citizenship, establish Ontario residency, and then leave to go live back in their home country, only coming back to Ontario when they seek medical care. It's a large problem, and a large drain on the health care budget.

Jiblethead · September 30, 2012

i have heard a lot about this problem, i personally dont know anyone abusing that system. I have heard that the Canadian government has been cracking down on these kind of people recently. Im sure there are still a ton of cases out there undiscovered.

TheNewTeddy · September 30, 2012

able-bodied

Disabilities are not limited to the area below your eyebrows.

jacee · September 30, 2012

Ontario Disability abuse is a problem. There are a lot of young, able-bodied people that seem to qualify for assistance for whatever reasons. But I'm not sure it's as big of a problem as OHIP fraud.

One of the biggest problems in Ontario right now, is new commers to the province, that apply and recieve permenant resident status, or Canadian citizenship, establish Ontario residency, and then leave to go live back in their home country, only coming back to Ontario when they seek medical care. It's a large problem, and a large drain on the health care budget.

I think you'd better provide some evidence to back up either of those claims.

'Everybody knows' or 'I think I know somebody who ...' type assertions are just drivel ... or the political propaganda you are fed.

Without some evidence ... well ... you don't really have a point do you?

madmax · September 30, 2012

unfortunately, i personally know several people who have faked their way into obtaining disability. One person convinced the doctor he had done too many drugs, and had gone insane. He continued on to tell the doctor he thought the city hall was run by the free masons, and he was going to burn it down. He also claimed he had vivid halucinations and withdrawl symptoms due to drug use. None of which are true. He has been collecting disability for over a year now.

So if you are smarter then the doctor, go ahead and call the Hotline and prove it. You do realize that medical evidence regarding drug abuse is higher threshold then the drug testing required to land many jobs.

And also, i do appreciate the facts on EI. I do realise that unemployment is on the rise, London has been getting hit for years now, and I myself have been unemployed for about 6 months. I do not collect benefits, because I still have some money saved, and I am still able to find some small time cash jobs in the meantime.

1) I would suspect you are not collecting EI becuase you haven;t paid into EI to collect it or worked long enough to qualify. How much you have in savings does not affect your ability to claim EI.

2) You can do small time cash jobs while on EI. Most on EI do so and are allowed to claim that income.

3) If you have been unemployed for 6 months, I cannot see how you can bother to point fingers at those other "Lazy people" who are "blowing" job interviews.

If its so ez to send out resumes and land a job interview, but choose to blow it, why aren't you getting interviewed? Are you not sending out enough resumes?

In order to collect EI, you must prove you are seeking employment. This is extremely easy to fake, all you have to do is send out resumes, and if you land an interview, it is pretty easy to intentionally blow it. I know several people who have been doing this for a few years now, they collect over 1000 a month, and even do some work to make extra money, while not letting the government know.

I am going to have to call your bluff.

You cannot collect EI for "A few years"

Collectioning a "$1000" per month on EI is doable and I would say the person doing so would have previously held a position of employment for $14 an hour to do so. Hiding monies from the government while on EI is rediculous as their is no significant penalty and can extend your EI claim in many circumstances to meet the maximum length of a claim. Otherwise you can collect , depending on region 25% to 40%.

I have to say. Why are these "lazy people on EI" who are Faking Resumes, Blowing Interviews, yet working more then you "under the table" yet able to collect EI for years......

you do realize that what you have stated is NOT possible.

If you can prove any of what you say, its called FRAUD.

If you don't believe me, I can assure you I have witnessed people who have been terminated and fined and denied the right to claim EI "Even though they will still have to pay into it", for such blatent violations.

Also, I have seen innocent people put through the grinders regarding EI.

I suggest you find a fulltime job. It should be EZ as you claim you are surrounded by slack and idle bags unwilling to work.

No system we have is perfect, there will always be ways to slip through the cracks. We need to apply stricter processes for people to attain disability or EI. The people who actually deserve it get it, which is a great thing. There are just too many people out there getting a free ride.

EI is NOT free. You can only collect IF you pay into it.

EI collects significantly more then is ever paid out.

That is why the government had generated over $56Billion in Surplus. Which was then used to justify the Billions in tax cuts and "training and investment grants" that were used to relocate operations to Mexico and Overseas.

I really think you need a job.

As there are likely no less then 200 Temporary Employment Agencies in London, I am certain you could walk into anyone of them and start working someplace 2morrow for 50% of the wage of everyone else.

If I recall correctly there is a bus that delivers unemployed workers from London and delivers them to a Manufacturing operation 1 hour from London to work nights and weekends and Afternoon shifts.

If you are a hard and dedicated worker, you will find this.

In the meantime, during the last 5 years, Particularly since 2009, I have helped a few dozen workers from London locate decent paying jobs. I live no where's near London, but these hardworking Job Seekers knew how to find me and where I was located and that I was good at what I do.

No one gets a free ride.

You are not going to get one either.

What is your education background.

Your Skilled Trade , or your University Degree in?

What kind of upgrades have you engaged in during your 6 months out of work?

Edited September 30, 2012 by madmax

Jiblethead · September 30, 2012

what i am trying to say, is that FRAUD is committed far too often. And these people are not getting caught.

As for myself, i do qualify for EI, but i don't feel the need to take it

I am certified as a sterile processing technician. I have been certified for almost a full year and have not been able to find work in my field. The work I have been doing since i was 14 is in restaurants waiting tables or cooking in the kitchen.

added: i have payed into ei since i began working.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Jiblethead

madmax · October 1, 2012

what i am trying to say, is that FRAUD is committed far too often. And these people are not getting caught.

Fraud will occur at every level of society. If you have proof, report it. Otherwise what you have is simply anecdotal hearsay. Why should this fraud attract your interest more then other fraud? Is it Fraud that is committed far to often? I find Corporate fraud, Financial and insider fraud all to common and not addressed by Canadians as it

Welfare fraud is prosecuted far more often and successfully then corporate fraud. However, it is even more common for those involved in actions you described are removed from the system when discovered.

My Concern is that it was FRAUD that has lead to significant loss of confidence in the economy and financing, causing the consumer to lose trust in the market at the same time companies are taken Billions in tax cuts, loans and grants while heading off to foreign countries with Canadian taxpayers dollars.

A thread title on Fraud could rank the level of fraud and loss caused towards society.

Even monies obtained through welfare fraud find itself back within the local economies. Investor Fraud, the monies are lost , period.

As for myself, i do qualify for EI, but i don't feel the need to take it

The course takes roughly for Sterile Process Technician takes anywheres from 12 to 21 weeks, and you have had your certification for 1 year and the last 6 months unemployed...... I would have to assume that you worked while you took that course for you to be eligible for EI in the first place or you took the online course.

Did you do a coop of roughly 400 hours and was it paid or unpaid?

I am certified as a sterile processing technician. I have been certified for almost a full year and have not been able to find work in my field. The work I have been doing since i was 14 is in restaurants waiting tables or cooking in the kitchen.

added: i have payed into ei since i began working.

It is my understanding that you choose to continue in this field until a position in your new field comes available.

There has been postings in your area within the last week and a few more within 1.5 hours drive.

That said, if you are not tied down to London... there appears to be many posting across the Province and Country in this field. Obviously you need to gain more experience as well...

I would go to Fanshaw everyday and have them help you with Job Search.

You have made a good choice. Its just a matter of getting hired and of course many of these positions can be part time to start, but that gets you the experience and foot in the door.

Edited October 1, 2012 by madmax

Jiblethead · October 1, 2012

i have completed my placement and i had to pay to do it. Fanshawe has only recently started charging for the clinical placement from what i have heard. The local hospitals have told me they are hiring in october and i have been contacting them at least once a week since i did my placement (completed june 29)

and you are right about corporate fraud. It is a far worse problem, but i just dont know anything about it first hand.

edit: the course was completely online and was 8 months long normally it is 1 year but i overlapped some of the courses to finish sooner

Edited October 1, 2012 by Jiblethead

TheNewTeddy · October 1, 2012

Not all disabilities are visible either.

October 2, 2012

Not all disabilities are visible either.

Gasp. on subject point. Apparently chronic constipation is one of them.

This near made me puke then, ............still does.

"Dr. Wong has dealt with it by filling out more special diet forms than any other physician in the province. According to college lawyer Carolyn Silver, an audit by the Ministry of Community and Social Services revealed Dr. Wong completed 13 per cent of Ontario’s special diet forms in a 3½-year period. Out of the forms that prescribed the greatest amounts of money, Dr. Wong filled out half of them during that period — often with no explanatory notes, evidence of physical exams or requests for lab tests.

In a separate review of 130 special diet forms filled out by Dr. Wong, the ministry discovered that he had diagnosed 98 per cent of the patients with chronic constipation and four food allergies. In one case, Dr. Wong certified that all 10 members of a family had those conditions, which translated to a fat monthly cheque of $2,500.

http://taxeela.blogspot.ca/2011/10/robin-hood-doctor-prescribes-extra-govt.html

Edited October 2, 2012 by Peeves

Jiblethead · October 2, 2012

i guess its pretty easy for a doc to pump out these forms im sure there are plenty out there that will take bribes in exchange for them signed

and obviously not all disabilities are visible...

madmax · October 2, 2012

i guess its pretty easy for a doc to pump out these forms im sure there are plenty out there that will take bribes in exchange for them signed

It is also PRETTY EASY to get CAUGHT and Its highly unlikely any Doctor is going to accept a Patients "BRIBE" and put his practice and license in jeapardy.

This doctor was caught because of the billings to OHIP, and OHIP flags unusual practices.

You cannot get approved for special diet without OHIP and a Doctor.

In the case above, we are looking at an $800,000 fraud for the Doctor personally, vs a $2500 claim for food for 10 people.

As I said, no one supports fraud, and also in the article the Doctor paid back those monies in full and what isn't stated is those people who received the Special Diet Supplement would go under even further scrutiny, likely loss of ALL benefit for those who engaged in Fraud and they will be on record as having to pay back the exta funds.

TheNewTeddy · October 3, 2012

Gasp. on subject point. Apparently chronic constipation is one of them.

This near made me puke then, ............still does.

"Dr. Wong has dealt with it by filling out more special diet forms than any other physician in the province. According to college lawyer Carolyn Silver, an audit by the Ministry of Community and Social Services revealed Dr. Wong completed 13 per cent of Ontario’s special diet forms in a 3½-year period. Out of the forms that prescribed the greatest amounts of money, Dr. Wong filled out half of them during that period — often with no explanatory notes, evidence of physical exams or requests for lab tests.

In a separate review of 130 special diet forms filled out by Dr. Wong, the ministry discovered that he had diagnosed 98 per cent of the patients with chronic constipation and four food allergies. In one case, Dr. Wong certified that all 10 members of a family had those conditions, which translated to a fat monthly cheque of $2,500.

http://taxeela.blogspot.ca/2011/10/robin-hood-doctor-prescribes-extra-govt.html

It is untrue that it is so superduper easy to get on the special diet allowance. I know because I've tried to get on it myself. And yes, I am on ODSP.

I told my doctor that I thought I qualified for the diet allowance because I would literally rather starve than eat certain foods.

He told me I needed to change my way of thinking, because this was "not healthy"

I found a cheaper source of foods I enjoy.

October 4, 2012

It is untrue that it is so superduper easy to get on the special diet allowance. I know because I've tried to get on it myself. And yes, I am on ODSP.

I told my doctor that I thought I qualified for the diet allowance because I would literally rather starve than eat certain foods.

He told me I needed to change my way of thinking, because this was "not healthy"

I found a cheaper source of foods I enjoy.

If your dietary problem is about a reaction to specific foods, allergic or other symptoms, I can't see how a special diet could be denied. The vague and brief "literally rather starve" claim to ODSP benefits provides no substance for contention.

madmax · October 4, 2012

If your dietary problem is about a reaction to specific foods, allergic or other symptoms, I can't see how a special diet could be denied. The vague and brief "literally rather starve" claim to ODSP benefits provides no substance for contention.

exactly... but you might have missed the tone and meaning of the post.

That said, I know people with many different allergies, like Gluton, or diseases , like Crohns, who do not receive the special diet and I have met others that do.

It depends on many factors.

But yes, suggesting that the amount of monies you receive doesn't allow you to buy healthy food is not a reason to receive the special diet, cause that would be true with most on OW.

Its a trip to the foodbank 1 month and making it to any church breakfast/dinner/supper possible.

Sad quite frankly.

TheNewTeddy · October 4, 2012

LOL healthy food.

ODSP does give me enough money to buy the things I need. I just had to adjust to actually living within my means VS living outside of my means while making a fair bit over the minimum wage.

Mr.Canada · October 4, 2012

I fully support ODSP for people that are really in need and have a legitimate disability. Some people don't even seem disabled yet they are receiving ODSP. I expect people on ODSP to have had a serious and ongoing injury preventing them working. People on ODSP for depression? Give me a break.