Mr.Canada Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) BTW, they say a prayer before the NASCAR races that ends with "Praise Jesus Christ. Shalom." thereby insulting all three "great" religions. Jesus Christ is a prophet to Muslims as well. He just isn't as high in the order as Mohammad. Jesus is fourth I believe in Islam. Mohammad, Abraham and Moses are ahead of him I think. So all three major religions are represented. Edited October 3, 2012 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
bleeding heart Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 There is in discussion of the motivation of immigrants. It's the same then as it is now. No...they were going to what they broadly viewed as an empty or practically-empty land, in which infrastructure and government would need to be set up...by definition. The current immigrants are not along these lines at all. They're entering a pre-existing, infrastructure-heavy, stable-governed society, heavy with laws and rules, and in which they wish to find their place. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 You need to make sure you have the right group though. Whats relevant to a discussion about immigration is not how muslim communties behave in Sudan or Indonesia. Its how they behave in CANADA. So we need to look at the 600 thousand muslim immigrants here, and study them, before we can even know if theres a problem that warrants reforming immigration law. Right, because when Somalian and Sudanese Islamists come to Canada they magically become different people. Why keep a Nazi or communist out of Canada? They might act completely differently once they come into our country, right? Do they behave? Do they pay taxes? Do they honor our laws? And these questions of course have to be answered relative to other immigrant demographics. Considering Canada doesn't keep such statistics, there's no point in trying to pull a Michael Hardner "show me the peer-reviewed studies from a social science journal" attempt to kill the discussion. I know what I see, and contemporary immigration in Canada is a disaster, which is entirely predictable, considering leftist politicians formulated the policies to comply with their utopian worldviews. Extra bonus: they expand their own voter base by importing useless freedom-hating third-worlders who will be dependent on so-called "social programs". Then once we have established there is a problem, and ascertained the scope and extent of that problem we can move to the solution phase and talk about constuctive ways to mitigate that problem About half of the participants in this thread refuse to even acknowledge a problem. I'm pretty sure that half includes you. Quote
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 Yes, it's problematic. That's why the pragmatist in me says we should be focusing on areas of the world, on cultures of the world, more likely to produce immigrants who will be not only economically successful but be better able to culturally integrate. That isn't judging the individual, it's judging the group. I regard immigrants as a commodity Canada is acquiring. Seems to me that grabbing groups with the highest success rates only makes sense. And we know that people from certain areas of the world fare more poorly economically, and seem to be more prone to societal adjustment issues than others. It's a lot easier to just go on a case-by-case basis. The problem is we're not screening applicants at all when it comes to values. Why? Because according to multicultural" Canada, anything goes. About half of Canada subscribes to the Justin Trudeau view that describing "honour killings" as barbaric is too harsh, and he was (still is?) the Liberal immigration critic. Quote
g_bambino Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 The current immigrants are not along these lines at all. They're entering a pre-existing, infrastructure-heavy, stable-governed society, heavy with laws and rules, and in which they wish to find their place. Most. Some want to change aspects of the existing order. Quote
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 There are vast differences in a person/familiy's ability to integrate even when they are from the same cultural background. While there may be differences between the cultures to some extent, there are much larger factors like community support, socioeconomic status, education, jobs, languages, etc. that play a much larger role in people's ability to integrate. Thank you for fulfilling my prophecy. I states earlier in this thread that socialists and communists like yourself will inevitably obfuscate the role culture plays in shaping a person's set of values, and by extension, their ability to integrate meaningfully into a still largely free society like Canada. A basic question even you should be asking is why Canada is bringing in immigrants that are failures? Are we really so short on applicants that we're desperate to bring in Islamists from Somalia to clean our federal government offices? The answer is because our system is broken because it was established by leftists who refused to implement reasonable standards for reasons I've outlined several times in this thread. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 Most. Some want to change aspects of the existing order. So do many native-born. I propose we start screening Canadians for Canadian values. Quote
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 Well, the only problem with having such people with these beliefs in this country is when you get enough of them in this country that they have the voting power to elect many MP's with their views and are able to actually change the laws. So far luckily this is far from the case, but I respect their right to protest but I'm in agreement that I'm not thrilled with Canada immigrating people who wish to have things like the anti-Muslim film banned or wish the filmmaker "hanged to death". It's not at all far from the case. Leftist immigration policies have dramatically transformed the demographic composition of this country over recent decades, and by extension increased the base of supporters for the NDP and the Liberals. You should be less concerned with their calls for the murder of the Los Angeles filmmaker and a lot more worried about their contempt for freedom of speech and expression. We already have plenty of people in this country (and on this board) who despise this most basic freedom. Why are we bringing more of them in to provide a stronger electoral base for politicians who share this hatred of free speech and expression? On the other hand, a Muslim in the crowd claims that the film qualifies as a hate-crime, which is a legit argument because maybe it could I'm not sure. Seriously? Making a video lampooning Islam is a "hate crime"? See, you're another one of those lemmings that in one breath states support for freedom of speech and expression ("I respect their right to protest", you said) and then in the next breath you reveal that you don't even understand what this freedom means by suggesting the film be viewed as a criminal act, as a "hate crime". If you didn't already know this, "hate crime" is a nonsense term coined by your side. Quote
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 But we're not grabbing groups: we're grabbing individuals from those groups. We should be grabbing the individuals who can adjust better and bring more to the table and not close ourselves off from potential contributors by slamming the door on the whole group. After all, if you take immigrants on a case by case basis based not on the performance of the group, but the individual qualifications, you will probably be excluding those who would be more likely to struggle: your "illiterate goat herders." Yes, it should be done on a case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, Canada is packed with leftists like you who refuse to actually implement any standards whatsoever to screening applicants based on values. Quote
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 Unless you genuinely believe that most immigrants are coming here with the express desire of taking over and implanting their own culture(s) and laws and societies over our own, as we are a bunch of subhuman savages. You're trying to ridicule Bonam by suggesting that he thinks there is some sort of conspiracy among Muslims to usurp societies and take over. He never said that, or even so much as implied it. You're one inch away from demanding that Bonam produce a secret document signed in blood by all Canadian Muslims committing themselves to a stealth takeover of the country. What he did actually say was entirely correct - that irresponsible immigration policies can destroy a country and change it for the worse. Democracy contains the mechanism of its own destruction. I'm not saying it's inevitable, but we shouldn't tempt fate by importing people who gleefully have their young children hold signs declaring "BEHEAD ALL THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET". This is a recipe for disaster, but predictably, you're here to obfuscate from the core issues and attack strawman arguments in order to deflect from the failures of your socialist ideology. At any rate, if that's the claim (that they are planning to take us over) it's going to take some serious evidence to back it up. Nobody made that claim, so you're just continuing to hack away at your strawman argument. Well, nobody except folks like Qhadafi who stated the war with the West would be won with babies, and not bullets. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Yes, it should be done on a case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, Canada is packed with leftists like you who refuse to actually implement any standards whatsoever to screening applicants based on values. And yet, despite your fevered thoughts to the contrary, it is not because of...whatever dumbass reason you ascribe to "leftists" but rather out of simple pragmatism. As much as you would wish "national values" were as firm, inflexible and unchanging as your underwear, they aren't. A few decades ago, "national values" screening would have excluded Catholics. Values-based screening ensured the deaths of thousands or more Jews in the Holocaust. Hell, if you were an immigrant, values-based screening would probably keep your ass out of the country (given your deep and abiding hatred for contemporary Canadian society). Which, now that I think about it, is a compelling argument in its favour. Edited October 3, 2012 by Black Dog Quote
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 The declining economic performance of immigrants has been very well-identified and documented for some years now. That's because of the declining standards in screening them as opposed to earlier years. Quote
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 And yet, despite your fevered thoughts to the contrary, it is not because of...whatever dumbass reason you ascribe to "leftists" but rather out of simple pragmatism. As much as you would wish "national values" were as firm, inflexible and unchanging as your underwear, they aren't. A few decades ago, "national values" screening would have excluded Catholics. Values-based screening ensured the deaths of thousands or more Jews in the Holocaust. Hell, if you were an immigrant, values-based screening would probably keep your ass out of the country (given your deep and abiding hatred for contemporary Canadian society). Which, now that I think about it, is a compelling argument in its favour. The thing is, there are no concrete Canadian values that you are willing to articulate. For leftists like you who've made a religion of moral relativism, you're not willing or able to take a stand for basic values: starting with freedom of speech and expression. There are some components of Canadian culture that should be rigid and inflexible, unfortunately we have so many Canadians that are like you, who are unable to stand up for these values because they either don't understand them, or worse, sincerely disagree with them. There is nothing "pragmatic" about importing trash to come into the country, demonstrate in favour of Islamism, and to occupy subsidised housing projects and emergency rooms. Unless, of course, your objective is to expand the voter base of the Liberal Party and the NDP. Quote
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 And yet some of us aren't shivering in terror, maddened by visions of the caliphate's crescent shadow looming over Western civilization. This is just a desperate attempt to slander those of us who reject your ridiculous attempts to pretend that there isn't a problem with contemporary immigration and multiculturalism policies as hysterical buffoons wearing tinfoil hats. What a surprise, your entourage of socialists and communists clap like seals in agreement with this strawman argument of yours! You leftists are like lemmings, and the phenomenon is clearly observable even in a discussion forum. Quote
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Posted October 3, 2012 Sure, and I agree with all of this but the bigger problem is sloganeering and the dumbing down of every debate by people who refuse to discuss things with any grace or subtlety. Let's stop that. I suppose you don't think you're dumbing down this discussion by pretending that concerns about Islamic expansion are as ridiculous as anti-Semitic narratives about global Zionist conspiracies? I guess 14 million people with a tiny strip of land are to be compared to about 1.5 billion who form mega-majorities in about 60 countries and have a rich history of conflicting with non-Muslims in India and Pakistan, Indonesia, Chechnya, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, and so forth, and where we've seen mass murder in the name of Allah carried out across the globe? Yeah, this conversation sure has been dumbed down, but not in the sense that you mean. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 The thing is, there are no concrete Canadian values that you are willing to articulate. I know this not to be true. You're arguing with phantoms in your mind. As always. For leftists like you who've made a religion of moral relativism, you're not willing or able to take a stand for basic values: starting with freedom of speech and expression. This is just empty sloganeering with nothing to back it up. There are some components of Canadian culture that should be rigid and inflexible, unfortunately we have so many Canadians that are like you, who are unable to stand up for these values because they either don't understand them, or worse, sincerely disagree with them. The ability to sincerely disagree over what constitutes "Canadian values" is a Canadian value. There is nothing "pragmatic" about importing trash to come into the country, demonstrate in favour of Islamism, and to occupy subsidised housing projects and emergency rooms. There is however, something entirely pragmatic about not instituting practices that are ineffective at achieving their stated goal. And, since we're talking about failing to articulate things, for all your blather in this thread and others about the need for values-based screening, you have utterly failed to articulate how such a system would work in practice. Unless, of course, your objective is to expand the voter base of the Liberal Party and the NDP. Don't forget the CPC. They're in on it too. Quote
guyser Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Why keep a Nazi or communist out of Canada? They might act completely differently once they come into our country, right? Actually they do! Katriuk in Quebec. Csaraet in Nova Scotia. Oberlander and Fast.... All of them kept low profiles and no criminal record. Geez, how many you want Einstien. Great oops moment huh? Considering Canada doesn't keep such statistics, there's no point in trying LOL Another brain fart. Of course that info is kept, nice try to deflect away, because surely...oh wait, I'm talking to you ,well most people would see or know to look , that in fact we do keep those figures. About half of the participants in this thread refuse to even acknowledge a problem. I'm pretty sure that half includes you. and some people dont sleep well at night cuz they be fraidy cats worrying about the mooslims. Oh....the sky is falling. Edited October 3, 2012 by guyser Quote
guyser Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 Don't forget the CPC. They're in on it too. How about up to their eyeballs in it? Immigration has increased to record levels under the party that stands up for canada....rah rah ...flag waving CPC's. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 How about up to their eyeballs in it? Immigration has increased to record levels under the party that stands up for canada....rah rah ...flag waving CPC's. Well, we know they aren't really conservatives. No true Scotsman and all that. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 I dont know if it would be a hate crime or not in Canada. Probably not. But it could be a case of wreckless endangerment which is broadly defined as... How can a film risk physical harm to someone? It's not the filmmaker risking harm, it's the people who are actually being violent. Does the Koran tell worshipers to be idiots and physically hurt people if they disrespect the Prophet? Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
guyser Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 Well, we know they aren't really conservatives. No true Scotsman and all that. Ah yes, silly me! Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 This is still a touchy subject, but the degree of insults and bad arguing has diminished some over the past few days - thanks for that and keep at it. We'll agree on this issue yet ! Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bleeding heart Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Most. Some want to change aspects of the existing order. Probably a few. But it's trivial. To make it analogous with the original waves of immigrants--who (in their minds) were not even arriving into already-existing society(ies) is a specious argument at best. To listen to some posters, there's an actual "immigrant" (read: Muslim) conspiracy to come here for the sake of changing Canada's culture...which, of course, is static, perfected, and "European" (read: British). Alternatively, the overwhelming majority of immigrants are going to take the easy approach: rather than politically radicalize Canada, or turn it into a theocracy, they'd prefer to live their lives in peace, make some money, raise their families, and enjoy life. And if we weren't talking about scaaaaary Musselmen, these basic truisms wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. Edited October 3, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
DogOnPorch Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) And if we weren't talking about scaaaaary Musselmen, these basic truisms wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. Islam is, after all, the West's longest standing enemy. The Battle of Lepanto wasn't against JWs. Edited October 3, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bleeding heart Posted October 3, 2012 Report Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) This is just a desperate attempt to slander those of us who reject your ridiculous attempts to pretend that there isn't a problem with contemporary immigration and multiculturalism policies as hysterical buffoons wearing tinfoil hats. No, it's a decidedly undesperate observation about cowards and fear-mongers. What a surprise, your entourage of socialists and communists clap like seals in agreement with this strawman argument of yours! You leftists are like lemmings, and the phenomenon is clearly observable even in a discussion forum. You don't think I've seen arguments precisely identical to yours summoned a thousand times by a (thankfully quite small) number of fringe right-wing not-quite-intellectuals over the years? You're not the first rodeo clown I've been compelled to slap to the dust, I assure you. Surely you don't think you're original and individualistic? Ye gods. Edited October 3, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
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