Muslims in Toronto demand end to freedom of speech and expression.

[kraychik]

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I don't agree that I am disgusting. Now, moving on.

Do you deny that religious scapegoating was a salient feature of one of our major opponents of WW2 ? There was an entire propaganda arm that blamed a religion for problems of that era. I see it very similar to the situation we have today.

We know you do. That's why you've not-so-subtly labelled me, DogOnPorch, and Wild Bill as being Nazi-like. We understand that you don't comprehend the difference between what we're saying and Nazi ideology.

Immigration and terrorism are being well managed by a succession of governments in our country, governments that are have diverse ideologies.

No, they are not. Again, we understand that you don't understand the problem.

I don't see the point of coming onto a web board and showing videos of a few idiots, then tying it to a billion people who you effectively want to keep out of the country. From the behavior of you and several posters like you, there doesn't seem to be much interest in having a discussion but instead you get 'disgusted' at the drop of a hat, and go off on tirades in post after post.

It's tied to every single Muslim in one way or another. Does that mean we're suggesting every single Muslim is the same, or that every branch of Islam is the same? No, although that's what you're trying to suggest. The common denominator here is hardcore Islam, although of course there are other cultures and sets of values (communism, Nazism, etc) that need to be kept out of Canada as best as possible.

Luckily, most of the country has moved on and is glad to adjust to the new way of the world: open, multicultural and prosperous.

We get it, you don't see a problem and you want to perpetuate cultural, social, and economic suicide in Canada.

Edited September 28, 2012 by kraychik

[kraychik]

What I saw during my recent 60 day vacation from MLW was the "Islamic World" go nutz over a film that doesn't even rate the humor found in Jihad Suicide Hotline while blood runs in rivers in Syria and little girls in Pakistan are accused of blasphemy.

The tour will never happen, my friend...

That's hilarious, thanks for sharing it. Perhaps cybercoma can now come in here and tell us how disgusting, reprehensible, and offensive it is.

[Michael Hardner]

You first.

Well, this is the Canadian Politics forum so let's talk about how this relates to Canadian politics. I have seen one valid suggestion come out of the many posts of outrage and disgust from the very emotional contingent here who appear to not like Muslims. And it was admittedly flawed by the person who suggested it, but whatever - it's something.

Forgive me, but it really seems that people here just want to condemn Islamists. Not interesting and not conducive to discussion.

[Michael Hardner]

We get it, you don't see a problem and you want to perpetuate cultural, social, and economic suicide in Canada.

What is the problem in Canada ? How does it warrant these continuous emotional outbursts ? Can anything alleviate how upset you are over this, really ?

[Mr.Canada]

Forgive me, but it really seems that people here just want to condemn Islamists. Not interesting and not conducive to discussion.

Islamist [ˈɪzləmɪst]

adj

(Non-Christian Religions / Islam) supporting or advocating Islamic fundamentalism

n

(Non-Christian Religions / Islam) a supporter or advocate of Islamic fundamentalism

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Islamist

Yes I condemn Islamists. They have no place in Canada.

[kraychik]

Look, if you don't get it by now you're never gonna get it. The way these events are related to Canadian politics is that we're bringing in hundreds of thousands of people, eventually millions, and including them into our citizenry, who do not value the most basic freedoms essential to a free society. To make matters worse, they are actually encouraged not to integrate into our societies via "multiculturalism". Anyone can do some basic predictions about Canada's future if this trend continues. This much was obvious in the original post, but not to those people like Michael Hardner.

[kraychik]

Yes I condemn Islamists. They have no place in Canada.

Another example of Michael Hardner using terms he doesn't understand and needing a dictionary.

[kraychik]

What is the problem in Canada ? How does it warrant these continuous emotional outbursts ? Can anything alleviate how upset you are over this, really ?

If a tree falls in the woods and Michael Hardner isn't there to hear it, does it make a sound?

[DogOnPorch]

Enjoy....

In Canada, we've all been to one of these. Or had one happen next door...across the alley...at the lake...etc, etc. It is dangerous behavior and definitely destructive. Often leading to visits by peeved RCMP (et al) officers. Law breakers get arrested if we're lucky. But, I think we can agree that we wouldn't want one 'go-off' in our houses.

It's a little different when thousands gather to call for the creation of blasphemy laws that would affect everybody. Even worse when riots break out and good folks get killed. In Australia, a group not unlike the one in Toronto went on a rampage while stunned police tried to rally enough force to deal with the problem.

I hope I don't have to repeat the tired old 'not all Muslims are like this' biz...because we all KNOW they're not all the same. It's the ones acting like Brown Shirts that need something...and for the luv o' me I'm not sure WHAT they need.

Edited September 28, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[kraychik]

In Canada, we've all been to one of these. Or had one happen next door...across the alley...at the lake...etc, etc. It is dangerous behavior and definitely destructive. Often leading to visits by peeved RCMP (et al) officers. Law breakers get arrested if we're lucky. But, I think we can agree that we wouldn't want one 'go-off' in our houses.

It's a little different when thousands gather to call for the creation of blasphemy laws that would affect everybody. Even worse when riots break out and good folks get killed. In Australia, a group not unlike the one in Toronto went on a rampage while stunned police tried to rally enough force to deal with the problem.

I hope I don't have to repeat the tired old 'not all Muslims are like this' biz...because we all KNOW they're not all the same. It's the ones acting like Brown Shirts that need something...and for the luv o' me I'm not sure WHAT they need.

The fact that we have people like madmax who seemed to, in seriousness, try to draw a parallel between those sorts of destructive events (for example, the Vancouver Stanley Cup riots) and what we're talking about here with Islamist demonstrations demanding destruction of the most basic freedoms tells me everything I need to know about the possibility of having a serious discussion with these leftists: It's impossible.

[DogOnPorch]

Well, this is the Canadian Politics forum so let's talk about how this relates to Canadian politics. I have seen one valid suggestion come out of the many posts of outrage and disgust from the very emotional contingent here who appear to not like Muslims. And it was admittedly flawed by the person who suggested it, but whatever - it's something.

Forgive me, but it really seems that people here just want to condemn Islamists. Not interesting and not conducive to discussion.

Awww...I missed you too, Michael.

Meh...perhaps I'm just old and stodgy in my ways. Western civilization can die off with me and perhaps you kickin' zee bucket. This is a global issue by the looks...well you might think different...so perhaps it does belong in the International Section with Toronto being a mere footnote in the Grand Struggle.

[kraychik]

Awww...I missed you too, Michael.

Meh...perhaps I'm just old and stodgy in my ways. Western civilization can die off with me and perhaps you kickin' zee bucket. This is a global issue by the looks...well you might think different...so perhaps it does belong in the International Section with Toronto being a mere footnote in the Grand Struggle.

It's pretty clear that Michael Hardner doesn't grasp what's at stake. That's why he remains confounded and demands to know what the problem is, despite it being laid out right in front of him. Even when the spoon is brought to his mouth, he keeps his lips shut and wonders why he's still hungry.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes I condemn Islamists. They have no place in Canada.

Maybe we can just have one condemnation thread that everybody posts on and we're done with it. No more posts about this topic ever. That would be great.

[Michael Hardner]

This much was obvious in the original post, but not to those people like Michael Hardner.

We have your pop quiz now to protect us. Thanks.

[Michael Hardner]

This is a global issue by the looks...well you might think different...

We're fine. Every other religion and culture has been adopted into ours - why would this one be different ?

[guyser]

[it's a little different when thousands gather to call for the creation of blasphemy laws that would affect everybody.

The thing is DoP , anyone can protest for any reason. we allow it, and none of us want to advocate stopping the expression, whether we agree with said protest or not.

Secondly, you and I both know there will be no change to our laws to accommodate what they want. They will never get traction, not now, not in ten years.

There will be no sharia law either.

It is no different that 1000's protest this because it says nothing on the face of it. They will never get what they protest for, and will in time move on, whether physiscally or otherwise. We already have blasphemy laws on our books, supposedly they won before the protest was organized. But you and I and everyone else with one ignorant exception, know that the blasphemy laws have gone unused for a century. On top of that, legal experts all agree a chrage under that law would never get past first sniff as it violates our charter.

But I dont see all of them expressing a need for change, I do see them expressing how upset that there religion was maligned (or truth, whatever floast the the boat)

Even worse when riots break out and good folks get killed. In Australia, a group not unlike the one in Toronto went on a rampage while stunned police tried to rally enough force to deal with the problem.

Fair enough, it sucks, but protests turning ugly are a norm of society. Should we castigate this one, yes, but we should fairly castigate all that protest violently. The violence is the problem, not the religion of said protestors.

I hope I don't have to repeat the tired old 'not all Muslims are like this' biz...because we all KNOW they're not all the same. It's the ones acting like Brown Shirts that need something...and for the luv o' me I'm not sure WHAT they need.

You dont have to repeat that mantra. You are a fair poster and recognize the truth of this.

But some (one) do need to face up to that mantra because they are believing that one is the same as all.

As Canada ages, these people will have kids who lessen the righteousness of their parents. With each and every generation the kids and their kids absorb and integrate the culture that surrounds them.

We saw it in Vancouver during the Oly's. Tons of kids of immigrants all cheering on Canada.

We see it in Italians of 2nd 3rd and so on generations, who while holding on to some values passed down, they only hold on to innocuous parts, ie family dinners, food, etc and let go the restrictive aspects of an old culture (dad is always right, daughters cant date but the boys can go F around at will)

Italian are the only ones, see it in Polish and E Euro cultures all the time. And dont forget, there was a fair bit of mouth foaming when the damn I-ties moved in what with the curly cue railings and the nice gardens.

Lastly culture is not a static entity as krabchik is want to believe. Neither of us can dictate what it will be, or where it will go. That will be a collective swing by the younger generation coming up.

So its why I dont ascribe to the hand wringing , sky is falling scenario as some want to do.

MH saying that your parents (sorry G-parents) fighting in WW's to giev freedoms to our populace, is IME an apt point. They did die to defend freedom, including speech.

I never worry about what is in front of my face, ie these prote4stors, but I am always looking around at the quiet ones who plot in silence.

Edited September 28, 2012 by guyser

[DogOnPorch]

Maybe we can just have one condemnation thread that everybody posts on and we're done with it. No more posts about this topic ever. That would be great.

That line-o-thought I'd normally agree with. Plus, I never start these squabbles. You can take a boo and confirm that, if you like. But, I don't think one can actually condemn too much when it comes to our ability to say things and point out that lo, the Emperor really ISN'T wearing any clothes. When I see two guys with a 'Down with Free Speech' sign, I don't get alarmed. When I see thousands willing to get off their butts and demand blasphemy laws while at the same time demanding vengeance...errr...justice, I think: "Who are THEY voting for?"

[DogOnPorch]

The thing is DoP , anyone can protest for any reason. we allow it, and none of us want to advocate stopping the expression, whether we agree with said protest or not.

Secondly, you and I both know there will be no change to our laws to accommodate what they want. They will never get traction, not now, not in ten years.

There will be no sharia law either.

It is no different that 1000's protest this because it says nothing on the face of it. They will never get what they protest for, and will in time move on, whether physiscally or otherwise. We already have blasphemy laws on our books, supposedly they won before the protest was organized. But you and I and everyone else with one ignorant exception, know that the blasphemy laws have gone unused for a century. On top of that, legal experts all agree a chrage under that law would never get past first sniff as it violates our charter.

But I dont see all of them expressing a need for change, I do see them expressing how upset that there religion was maligned (or truth, whatever floast the the boat)

Fair enough, it sucks, but protests turning ugly are a norm of society. Should we castigate this one, yes, but we should fairly castigate all that protest violently. The violence is the problem, not the religion of said protestors.

You dont have to repeat that mantra. You are a fair poster and recognize the truth of this.

But some (one) do need to face up to that mantra because they are believing that one is the same as all.

As Canada ages, these people will have kids who lessen the righteousness of their parents. With each and every generation the kids and their kids absorb and integrate the culture that surrounds them.

We saw it in Vancouver during the Oly's. Tons of kids of immigrants all cheering on Canada.

We see it in Italians of 2nd 3rd and so on generations, who while holding on to some values passed down, they only hold on to innocuous parts, ie family dinners, food, etc and let go the restrictive aspects of an old culture (dad is always right, daughters cant date but the boys can go F around at will)

Italian are the only ones, see it in Polish and E Euro cultures all the time. And dont forget, there was a fair bit of mouth foaming when the damn I-ties moved in what with the curly cue railings and the nice gardens.

Lastly culture is not a static entity as krabchik is want to believe. Neither of us can dictate what it will be, or where it will go. That will be a collective swing by the younger generation coming up.

So its why I dont ascribe to the hand wringing , sky is falling scenario as some want to do.

MH saying that your parents (sorry G-parents) fighting in WW's to giev freedoms to our populace, is IME an apt point. They did die to defend freedom, including speech.

I never worry about what is in front of my face, ie these prote4stors, but I am always looking around at the quiet ones who plot in silence.

We're friends for a reason. For the most part I'd like to take comfort in your words. The Provos tried to 'change my opinion' when younger...along with many unlucky others. Wrong place...wrong time...and I remember the hunt for all things Irish. This seems a tad familiar to that sort of chaos, but with a larger crowd and a kooky bent.

[dre]

THe thing is how are we going to decide which groups to blackball, based on their "values" and who decides what the litmus tests are.

The vast majority of Canadians favor the right of women to make reproductive decisions. Yet we have have a vocal minority that actively campgains to take these rights away. Should we have a litmus test for that too? Turn pro-lifers back at the border?

BTW... canada has always been a very xenophobic country when it comes to immigration...

Heres some fun examples...

January 1923

Order in Council issued excluding "any immigrant of any Asiatic race" except agriculturalists, farm labourers, female domestic servants, and wife and children of a person legally in Canada. ("Asia" was conceived broadly, going as far west as Turkey and Syria).

No asians unless they work in the fields or as female domestic servants

Order in Council (P.C. 2115) issued prohibiting the landing of "any immigrant of any Asiatic race", except wives and minor children of Canadian citizens (and few Asians could get citizenship).

Cant have folks with peculiar habits!

Under the authority of Section 38 of the Immigration Act, an Order in Council was issued prohibiting the entry of Doukhobors, Mennonitesand Hutterites, because of their "peculiar habits, modes of life and methods of holding property".

We dont want any jews... but we dont wanna actually SAY that!

1938

Memo to Mackenzie King by Departments of External Affairs and Mines and Resources: "We do not want to take too many Jews, but in the circumstances, we do not want to say so. We do not want to legitimise the Aryan mythology by introducing any formal distinction for immigration purposes between Jews and non-Jews. The practical distinction, however, has to be made and should be drawn with discretion and sympathy by the competent department, without the need to lay down a formal minute of policy".

Edited September 28, 2012 by dre

[DogOnPorch]

THe thing is how are we going to decide which groups to blackball, based on their "values" and who decides what the litmus tests are.

The vast majority of Canadians favor the right of women to make reproductive decisions. Yet we have have a vocal minority that actively campgains to take these rights away. Should we have a litmus test for that too? Turn pro-lifers back at the border?

Does a fellow like Anjem Choudary set off any alarm bells with you? If you haven't heard of him, take a few minutes to find one of his YouTube comedies. He was born in Welling, Middlesex...a burb of London.

[guyser]

We're friends for a reason. For the most part I'd like to take comfort in your words. The Provos tried to 'change my opinion' when younger...along with many unlucky others. Wrong place...wrong time...and I remember the hunt for all things Irish. This seems a tad familiar to that sort of chaos, but with a larger crowd and a kooky bent.

The large crowd w a kooky bent is alarming. But taken in contrast to the vast majority of people the percentage holding this belief amounts to less than 1% of the populace.

You saw it in the Irish treatment, I can see it in KKK down south. We are both of an age where we saw large (larger than this demo) protests against integrating blacks.

Was anything ever really done about it? Not that i know of, however the more those people talked and protested , the more they made themselves irrelevant. Today does anyone worry about the KKK ?

I dont think so.

We have laws being wiped off the books because there is no harm being committed to anyone . Gay marriage laws, sex laws wiped out( we realized hell, its their business) thats ort of thing.Laws are needed only when harm comes to the person(s). Thus, blasphemy laws (we already have) will be wiped out, not re inforced and upheld. We as a nation will not tolerate any idea of amending speech laws because we all know that harms the person. No politician will ever take that cause up, not if he ver wants to be elected that is.

I feel confident as we collectively age, the relevance of religion dictating society or any of societies participants will diminish and fast. We can see how religion for most of us born and raised here as the upmteenth generation of immigrants (read mainly caucasian/W Euro/UK) has died out as guiding light.

I see the same happening for the children of militant Muslims. The kids will likely grow up and say..." really Dad? Really? You hold these feelings for a country that made us comfortable and successful? Dad...really? "

I saidi the same to my mom re church when I was 12 or so.

The faux conscripting of you and Wild Bill by K was particularly galling. Grasping at straws is what it was and I thought no no no.....and decided to say so.

Edited September 28, 2012 by guyser

[DogOnPorch]

The large crowd w a kooky bent is alarming. But taken in contrast to the vast majority of people the percentage holding this belief amounts to less than 1% of the populace.

You saw it in the Irish treatment, I can see it in KKK down south. We are both of an age where we saw large (larger than this demo) protests against integrating blacks.

Was anything ever really done about it? Not that i know of, however the more those people talked and protested , the more they made themselves irrelevant. Today does anyone worry about the KKK ?

I dont think so.

We have laws being wiped off the books because there is no harm being committed to anyone . Gay marriage laws, sex laws wiped out( we realized hell, its their business) thats ort of thing.Laws are needed only when harm comes to the person(s). Thus, blasphemy laws (we already have) will be wiped out, not re inforced and upheld. We as a nation will not tolerate any idea of amending speech laws because we all know that harms the person. No politician will ever take that cause up, not if he ver wants to be elected that is.

I feel confident as we collectively age, the relevance of religion dictating society or any of societies participants will diminish and fast. We can see how religion for most of us born and raised here as the upmteenth generation of immigrants (read mainly caucasian/W Euro/UK) has died out as guiding light.

I see the same happening for the children of militant Muslims. The kids will likely grow up and say..." really Dad? Really? You hold these feelings for a country that made us comfortable and successful? Dad...really? "

I saidi the same to my mom re church when I was 12 or so.

The faux conscripting of you and Wild Bill by K was particularly galling. Grasping at straws is what it was and I thought no no no.....and decided to say so.

And I thank you. It's Brown Shirt-like behavior that riles me and I don't care who does it. Civilized folks expecting a civilized response from an uncivilized movement. Tolerating intolerance and all that jazz. It didn't work on You-Know-Who and it won't work with the forces aligned against us now. What to do next is anyone's guess. But, turning into the Beast With Five Fingers as per: the monster is us certainly isn't the right idea. Tried that with the Japanese and it turns out Dr Suzuki wasn't in command of the Japanese navy. However, I do have to agree with K--- that certain major news medias were oddly silent for their own reasons...notably the NP and the CBC....which should have covered it. That is also an example of the wrong thing to do, IMO.

Edited September 28, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[PIK]

So now, the National Post is an ally of the CBC?

Strange but true. That leftist media took it over. It was a major thorn in the leftist media side, when conrad was running it.

[Bonam]

If you are, then please explain why we're talking about these "cultures" in the first place. If we can't agree on that, then we have nothing to build a discussion on do we ?

I believe they've explained why they are talking about these cultures quite clearly.

As for clear proposals, I believe threads of this sort in the past have often included specific suggestions as to how our immigration system might be modified.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Bonam

[Michael Hardner]

I believe they've explained why they are talking about these cultures quite clearly.

As for clear proposals, I believe threads of this sort in the past have often included specific suggestions as to how our immigration system might be modified.

Yes, we have a suggestion of a set of screening questions to see if immigration candidates hold "Canadian values". Fine with me, but is that we have pages and pages on this topic and new threads daily ?

As eyeball suggested, it's really just about picking a fight, or maybe just feeling good about yourself - which is kind of vain when you think about it.