Michael Hardner Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Would you say the Amish have assimilated into Canada's larger culture? I haven't heard of too many problems lately. The US government gives them special consideration, and possibly Canada does too. It's a little more touchy than allowing Turbans, though, as they don't like paying income tax. For that matter, have natives assimilated into our larger culture after centuries of interaction? You're right, we English and French have assimilated poorly into their country and we're probably the worst example of immigration so far. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 And the alternative is what? Knee-jerk decisions made by uneducated, paranoid conspiracy nuts like you? This is a touchy discussion, so let's lay off the insults on both sides, hmmm ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Black Dog Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Well that's a somewhat better post than attacking me personally, but you still carry-on with the fallacy. "Appeal to probability" or some similar one like that. For it to be a logical fallacy, I would have had to claim that all Muslims will assimilate because all other immigrants have. I made no such absolute claims ergo no fallacy. Is "appeal to obscure Koran verses" a fallacy? It should be. Muslims aren't monolithic? OK...lol. I suppose all those riots are over gas prices going through the roof... And the millions not rioting? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 If they're raised in a community which has a different language, culture and beliefs, and spend most of their time among that community, what makes you think they will assimilate into the larger, surrounding community? They have to go to school and mix, they have to work ... every other group has done this and assimilated. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Given how young and often wrong the field of social science is, its results are often not meaningful at all, and in some cases "common sense" or "common knowledge" can be just as insightful (or more insightful) as the nascent results of social studies. This is of course very different from harder sciences like physics, chemistry, and biology. And those of us who are familiar with science are also familiar with its limits and abuses. Attempting to isolate the influence of a multi-faceted factor like religion is next to impossible, and prone to misinterpretation by the public. Quackery exists, and is as much of a problem as mushy-headed liberal social science. The best results come from having an informed bipartisan discussion by interested and positive individuals. This is why MLW is a good thing. What doesn't help is refusing to offer any evidence, or the idea that evidence itself isn't needed, or that "the man" or some other conspiracy renders it suspicious. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Is "appeal to obscure Koran verses" a fallacy? It should be. Is it obscure or are you merely claiming it to be obscure? I think the later. And the millions not rioting? There were millions upon millions of good Germans, too. It didn't stop the SS. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Michael Hardner has made a consistent effort to portray himself as an ultra-rationalist who is only driven by compelling evidence. The reality is, of course, that he uses this unsatisfiable demand for "scientific evidence" from "experts" or "authorities" which simply doesn't exist in order to shut down discussion. Let's put it this way: you wouldn't accept my opinion as evidence of anything, so why should I accept yours ? He's basically told us that is he is incapable of accepting or understanding anything until a Peter Mansbridge tells him to. Hmmm.... that doesn't *sound* like something I said. Maybe you're paraphrasing me ? he tried to tell everyone to shut up No. .. we all lack "sufficient expertise" in education. No. He is that caricature of a leftist ... great cog in the machine ... 1984. No. Continued mischaracterization of my point of view. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Black Dog Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Is it obscure or are you merely claiming it to be obscure? I think the later. Doesn't really matter either way. There were millions upon millions of good Germans, too. It didn't stop the SS. Speaking of fallacies...reductio ad Hitlerum. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Doesn't really matter either way. Yes it does. You're simply ignoring information that doesn't fit your mold. Speaking of fallacies...reductio ad Hitlerum. Hardly, I view militant Islam as being quite similar to the SS of which I have personal interests. Similar background...similar influences. Hitler harnessed it during WW2 for his purposes. Himmler thought Islam the ideal warrior's religion. So save your Godwin's Law for a case that isn't fascism run amok since that's what we're seeing in the "Islamic World" these days. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 ...go on to ignore the Koran's own words about assimilation. It's been awhile since people evoked the Holy Book excuse as to why people are different. The next step in this argument is for people to quote the plentiful Old Testament instructions to kill, maim sinners... then the reaction is to explain that it's just *just* the Holy Books you see, it's that *with* the culture. And then we're back at this idea that *culture* is behind these issues, with nothing to do with that idea except maybe give people a pop quiz to see if they're suitable to come to Canada. HELLO IMMIGRANT COMING TO CANADA ! DO YOU ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT YOU WILL BE CANADIAN ? IF SO CHECK THIS BOX. That being said, I already concur with the idea. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 It's been awhile since people evoked the Holy Book excuse as to why people are different. The next step in this argument is for people to quote the plentiful Old Testament instructions to kill, maim sinners... then the reaction is to explain that it's just *just* the Holy Books you see, it's that *with* the culture. And then we're back at this idea that *culture* is behind these issues, with nothing to do with that idea except maybe give people a pop quiz to see if they're suitable to come to Canada. HELLO IMMIGRANT COMING TO CANADA ! DO YOU ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT YOU WILL BE CANADIAN ? IF SO CHECK THIS BOX. That being said, I already concur with the idea. I didn't write the Koran, Michael. But thanks for the credit. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Black Dog Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Yes it does. You're simply ignoring information that doesn't fit your mold. Not really, no. The quote doesn't mean anything here. There's no context, no explanation. It's a turd on the rug of this thread. Hardly, I view militant Islam as being quite similar to the SS of which I have personal interests. Similar background...similar influences. Hitler harnessed it during WW2 for his purposes. Himmler thought Islam the ideal warrior's religion. Classic reductio ad Hitlerum. "Hitler liked X, therefore X is bad." Did you know Hitler was a vegtarian as well? What's up with that? So save your Godwin's Law for a case that isn't fascism run amok since that's what we're seeing in the "Islamic World" these days Reductio ad Hitlerum is not the same as Godwin's Law. Anyway, I've done enough of my Nazi homework to know that radical Islam and national socialism are only related in so far as both belonging to the very large and nebulous category of "things people consider to be Bad Things." Quote
DogOnPorch Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Not really, no. The quote doesn't mean anything here. There's no context, no explanation. It's a turd on the rug of this thread. Classic reductio ad Hitlerum. "Hitler liked X, therefore X is bad." Did you know Hitler was a vegtarian as well? What's up with that? Reductio ad Hitlerum is not the same as Godwin's Law. Anyway, I've done enough of my Nazi homework to know that radical Islam and national socialism are only related in so far as both belonging to the very large and nebulous category of "things people consider to be Bad Things." The Russians claimed he had one ball. Hitler had his thug the Grand Mufti raise numerous all Muslim divisions for the SS including the infamous 13th SS Handshar. That's the same Grand Mufti who brought us the Arab-Israeli Wars. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Black Dog Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 The Russians claimed he had one ball. Hitler had his thug the Grand Mufti raise numerous all Muslim divisions for the SS including the infamous 13th SS Handshar. That's the same Grand Mufti who brought us the Arab-Israeli Wars. DoP's Law: As an online discussion with Dog on Porch grows longer, the probability of a reference to the Grand Mufti of Jersualem appearing approaches zero. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 DoP's Law: As an online discussion with Dog on Porch grows longer, the probability of a reference to the Grand Mufti of Jersualem appearing approaches zero. He was real and you seek to shut-down any discussion about his influence on the Middle East situation. I must say, I'm not surprised. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Black Dog Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 He was real and you seek to shut-down any discussion about his influence on the Middle East situation. I must say, I'm not surprised. I know he was real. As for the rest, I don't really care about his influence seeing as how we're talking about immigration and assimilation in Canada, not religious leaders who have been dead longer than I've been alive. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 I know he was real. As for the rest, I don't really care about his influence seeing as how we're talking about immigration and assimilation in Canada, not religious leaders who have been dead longer than I've been alive. You were born after 1974? No wonder... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Black Dog Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 You were born after 1974? No wonder... What, is there something about people born before that date that makes them incapable of keeping on topic in online discussion forums? Quote
wyly Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) They have to go to school and mix, they have to work ... every other group has done this and assimilated. true but xenophobics don't want to acknowledge it, the first generation will always regardless where they come from stay with their group for social comfort, their kids raised in canada will integrate with some resistance from their parents, the next generation will freely intermarry with other canadians of different religions and ethnic origin will have fully integrated into society...this behaviour has repeated itself throughout history in every country, and each time the new minority becomes integrated with the old population becoming as native as the natives...I recall reading study from the netherlands regarding islamic immigants, the children of the immigrants were found to abandon islam and become atheists at the same rate as the children of dutch christians... i'm an immigrant, i married the daughter of an asian immigrant who banished her from her family, that parental resistance disappeared after a decade and now there is an entire new generation of of mixed race canadian kids who are as completely integrated as any other canadian... Edited October 1, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 What, is there something about people born before that date that makes them incapable of keeping on topic in online discussion forums? MH claims we don't even need threads like this. So why did you start it? Oh wait...you didn't and neither did I. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Black Dog Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 MH claims we don't even need threads like this. So why did you start it? Oh wait...you didn't and neither did I. Uh. What? Quote
Bonam Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) this behaviour has repeated itself throughout history in every country, and each time the new minority becomes integrated with the old population becoming as native as the natives... There's a key word here. Minority. And you are right, when it is a minority, over time, they will indeed most likely become integrated. But what about when immigrants are not the minority? What about when there are more immigrants than natives? What about when entire cities or large subsections of cities are predominated by one or two immigrant cultures? I'll tell you what happens: the native culture disappears, replaced by that of the newcomers. And there are just as many examples of this in history as there are of assimilation. If we want to maintain our culture, immigration rates must be controlled and limited so that this does not happen. Edited October 1, 2012 by Bonam Quote
wyly Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Reductio ad Hitlerum is not the same as Godwin's Law. Anyway, I've done enough of my Nazi homework to know that radical Islam and national socialism are only related in so far as both belonging to the very large and nebulous category of "things people consider to be Bad Things." and godwins law isn't a law, it's an irrelevant internet meme...putting the word "law" behind anything doesn't give it legitimacy... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 Based on what? I think they will each have a very substantial effect. - Modern technology allows people to communicate with and stay in touch with their homeland and its culture more than ever before. In the past, immigrants in a new land were immersed in it and had basically no communication with home. Today that is not the case. - The relatively recent policies of modern multiculturalism, which emphasize "celebrating" diverse cultures, rather than encouraging immigrants to adapt to their new culture, as was the norm in the past These are the points I would discount. Being able to watch TV channels, talk to the relatives, hear about multiculturalism at school... to me negligible. We have a melting pot the same as the US... government spending on such things is marginal and the influence of far flung cultures... my impression is that they're not great. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted October 1, 2012 Report Posted October 1, 2012 MH claims we don't even need threads like this. So why did you start it? Oh wait...you didn't and neither did I. My complaint is that threads that say "I don't like this situation" with no opportunity for progessive discussion aren't useful. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
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