wyly Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 Problems that stem from these states' unwillingness to accept immigrants into their society. Rather than accepting them and helping them assimilate, these countries marginalize their immigrant populations, which creates a lot of the problems that we don't have in our multicultural society. a lot of that is media sensationalism...if you go to those countries you won't find pure ethnic/nationalities...immigration (individual and mass)has been part of europe for thousands of years, friction between immigrant and native populations has always been present but disappears quickly as the immigrants become absorbed in to the population...canada is a nation of immigrants, with an immigrant culture, we are the sum of our parts immigration shapes our culture... whereas in europe it's more immigrants joining an existing culture and becoming part of that culture... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 Many western countries do have those same values. Each has their own uniqueness, and Canada's does rather well as one of the top destinations, so, there's probably a reason. without quizzing each and every immigrant you won't know why they came here, you can say it was because of our values but I doubt that, IMO it's opportunity...they likely had other destinations in mind as well but we accepted them or other countries rejected them...Where have I said anything that would make you respond with that?it wasn't a criticism, I was expanding on on your postIf the choice is between people like you and immigration, then I pick immigration. Seriously, there are many immigrants who love this country in ways that you'll never understand. canadians do not see/love/appreciate canada as an immigrant would...native born Canadians never had to make a conscious choice to be a canadian so there appreciation/love will be different... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Black Dog Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 a lot of that is media sensationalism...if you go to those countries you won't find pure ethnic/nationalities...immigration (individual and mass)has been part of europe for thousands of years, friction between immigrant and native populations has always been present but disappears quickly as the immigrants become absorbed in to the population... I don't buy it. Ethno-religious separation is pretty ingrained in European countries. It's well documented they mostly do a far worse job assimilating immigrants than Canada and the U.S. And I'm not talking about sensationalist media claims either. That aspect is particularly noticeable in the post-colonial age as a lot of European states are facing populations of immigrants of far different ethnic and religious backgrounds than in the past and they have no clue what to do with them. Quote
PIK Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) IMO, that's BS. But it is the 'values' of the country that have shaped the country into the destination that it is. Immigrants families may not adapt completely in the first generation, but usually, by the second generation, they become very 'Canadian'. Even the first generation immigrants ofthen love this country in a way that many of us, who are born here, can't really understand. Canadian values make it a better place to live. The above are examples of what I'm talking about when I say that some immigrants love this country in a way that natural born citizens often don't understand. I watched a recent Lebanese immigrant brought to tears during the fireworks show in Ottawa in 2010. That's not something fake or rare, and it's not something that some of you will ever understand. Sorry bud but don't tell me that someone from lebanon or where ever is as passionate as I am or many real canadians that were born and raised with canadian values and morales,sure they are happy to be here but that is because of the secruity they have by being here. You just don't become canadian just by showing up here, it is bred into you. And my family showed up here in the late 1700's. People like you need to read up on canada before trudeau arrived on the scene. So are honour killings now a part of canadian life? Edited September 20, 2012 by PIK Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
wyly Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 As for the OP, it seems rather a Rube Goldberg solution to talk of rewards for having children. The major difference working families have less children is because they have less disposable income and much less security. Plus we are taxed more than previous generations! Larger baby bonus cheques won't help if you lose your job, especially when the economic status quo these days is for both parents to have to work. yup, mrs wyly was fired twice for being pregnant, the laws do bugger all to protect pregnant women...no amount of daycare will help if you don't have a job...People are not going to chose to have more children until and unless we return to one worker families where that worker is not constantly afraid of losing his job.for some that will matter but the trend even in countries with much better child support than what we have is small families, people want more freedom to live a relaxed lifestyle you can't do that dragging 4 kids along...then there is the orthodontics! and post secondary costs!...we should'a stopped at one kid... Somehow, a few hundred dollars more as a child dependent deduction on our taxes is not likely to cut it.have a comfortable life and a good pension plan with one kid or be prepared to work your arse off forever with more...sometimes I think I'll be moving into a retirement home before my kids move out of my home.. Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 So are honour killings now a part of canadian life? ya canadians never kill their wives or children, oh noooo that never happens here Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
PIK Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 ya canadians never kill their wives or children, oh noooo that never happens here By people that are idiots ,not because your daughter dishonoured the family name by having a boyfriend. How can anyone defend anything like that. And as I said before we produce enough of our own idiots, why bring more in. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
wyly Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 Problems that stem from these states' unwillingness to accept immigrants into their society. Rather than accepting them and helping them assimilate, these countries marginalize their immigrant populations, which creates a lot of the problems that we don't have in our multicultural society. that isn't true the problem is racism, the state can't force a company to hire an immigrant... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
guyser Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 Sorry bud but don't tell me that someone from lebanon or where ever is as passionate as I am bud might not tell you, but I will They can be moreso than you, as they are able to recognize an opportunity whereas they only felt disillusioned back on the old country. or many real canadians that were born and raised Ugh...the real canadians meme. Ergo, born out of canada, never a real Canuck. Jacques Parizeau.....your on MLW? with canadian values and morales,sure they are happy to be here but that is because of the secruity they have by being here. You just don't become canadian just by showing up here,No, you are born into it or you wait 4 years.See that was simple! So are honour killings now a part of canadian life? Well, at some point someone honourably killed your thought process, so...I guess so! Quote
wyly Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 I don't buy it. Ethno-religious separation is pretty ingrained in European countries. It's well documented they mostly do a far worse job assimilating immigrants than Canada and the U.S. And I'm not talking about sensationalist media claims either. That aspect is particularly noticeable in the post-colonial age as a lot of European states are facing populations of immigrants of far different ethnic and religious backgrounds than in the past and they have no clue what to do with them. united states does a good job? how many millions of illegal immigrants are there in the US? recall the race riots in the US, the huge number of blacks in US prisons? these people have been in the US for over 200 years and they're still not assimilated and still being persecuted...euros have as many racists as we do here is nothing any state can do change that...but you'll also find in europe immigrants fully blended in with the their adopted countries and after a generation or two as native as the natives... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 By people that are idiots ,not because your daughter dishonoured the family name by having a boyfriend. How can anyone defend anything like that. And as I said before we produce enough of our own idiots, why bring more in. ah I see,so people who commit honor killings aren't idiots, interesting...so now I assume there different types of killings some not so bad and others really bad?so a man kills his wife because she burnt his toast(clearly idiot classification) is not as bad as a man who kills his wife for adultery? a honor killing... oh hang on! canadians kill their wives and husbands for adultery as well! oh hells bells! canadians do honor killings too! wow we should deport ourselves back to where ever it is we all came from.... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Canuckistani Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 ah I see,so people who commit honor killings aren't idiots, interesting...so now I assume there different types of killings some not so bad and others really bad? so a man kills his wife because she burnt his toast(clearly idiot classification) is not as bad as a man who kills his wife for adultery? a honor killing... oh hang on! canadians kill their wives and husbands for adultery as well! oh hells bells! canadians do honor killings too! wow we should deport ourselves back to where ever it is we all came from.... Do you not see the diff between a culture that supports honor killings and one that condemns it? How many "Canadians" (you obviously don't see the people who practice honor killings as Canadians, how bigoted of you) have killed their daughters for wearing miniskirts or going out with boys? We should deport any non-citizen who commits a serious crime, one that could potentially result in a 2 year or higher sentence. Quote
Wild Bill Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 that isn't true the problem is racism, the state can't force a company to hire an immigrant... Thank Heaven! Wyly, I once had a manager show me a resume that came in for a position. The qualifications were excellent but the applicant was a visible minority fresh from the middle east. "Wish I could hire him but I don't dare!" said my boss. "What do you mean?" I asked him. "Well, the problem is that if he doesn't work out I could have a helluva time trying to get rid of him!" Instantly, I understood. If we fired the fellow he could pull the race card. Even if we eventually won, it would cost us a LOT of time and money! Before you say we were just being paranoid, this was a distribution business before computer inventory. We had just spent months fighting various government departments for refusing to hire a wheelchair applicant as an inside salesperson. The government folks just couldn't understand that there was more to it than sitting at a desk with a phone. The worker also had to run back to the warehouse for stock checks while a customer waited. Shelves and shelves of parts up to 7 feet high! Impossible to do from a wheel chair. We did have visible minorities among the staff but they had been in Canada for generations. We shared the same culture. We tended to hire from internal recommendations and so everyone tended to be compatible. It was common knowledge in our industry about problems experienced trying to fire bad employees who were recent immigrants - actual cases and not just biased hearsay. Our industry was high tech electronics and very much a "Star Trek" environment. There was little to no actual racism but a great deal of realism as to how our "system" was being abused. So the converse of your premise is quite true. The State CAN and DOES force a company NOT to fire an immigrant! Often government attempts to solve problems are "cures" worse than the disease. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Topaz Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 Getting back to the topic, yes it would help those people who want kids and not all people should have kids. Giving someone a $100 per month for childcare does really help those who pay $1000. By opening more childcare centres, it would increase employment, help parent who don't have a relative to babysit, which would help that parent be a better worker because they don't have to worry about their kids. Perhaps more companies should offer childcare. Quote
Black Dog Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 united states does a good job? how many millions of illegal immigrants are there in the US? I said they do a better job. Not perfect. recall the race riots in the US, the huge number of blacks in US prisons? these people have been in the US for over 200 years and they're still not assimilated and still being persecuted... Different issue than immigration euros have as many racists as we do here is nothing any state can do change that... Racism in Europe is far far more commonplace and socially acceptable than it is here. but you'll also find in europe immigrants fully blended in with the their adopted countries and after a generation or two as native as the natives... Going back to the example of Turkish immigrants to Germany, there are people who are third generation, born in Germany and aren't citizens. I don't know where you're getting your information from. Quote
Black Dog Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 Do you not see the diff between a culture that supports honor killings and one that condemns it? How many "Canadians" (you obviously don't see the people who practice honor killings as Canadians, how bigoted of you) have killed their daughters for wearing miniskirts or going out with boys? I guarantee far more women and children are murdered by ex-boyfriends/husbands/fathers for non-religious reasons than in "honour killings". And you know what? They're just as dead. We should deport any non-citizen who commits a serious crime, one that could potentially result in a 2 year or higher sentence. I'm pretty sure we already do. Quote
Canuckistani Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 I guarantee far more women and children are murdered by ex-boyfriends/husbands/fathers for non-religious reasons than in "honour killings". And you know what? They're just as dead. I'm pretty sure we already do. You might want to look into that and see how many criminals we allow to stay. As for who's killed, the point is the difference between a cultures that celebrates the killings and one that condemns it. Every culture has murder, but some have excuses for certain kinds of murder. The victim is just as dead, but at least the perp is punished instead of congratulated. Quote
wyly Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) Thank Heaven! Wyly, I once had a manager show me a resume that came in for a position. The qualifications were excellent but the applicant was a visible minority fresh from the middle east. "Wish I could hire him but I don't dare!" said my boss. "What do you mean?" I asked him. "Well, the problem is that if he doesn't work out I could have a helluva time trying to get rid of him!" Instantly, I understood. If we fired the fellow he could pull the race card. Even if we eventually won, it would cost us a LOT of time and money! to turn someone down because they're an immigrant? that's pure racism the boss is trying to find an excuse to justify it,"hey we can't hire him because he may do something" immigrants are governed by the same labour laws as the rest of us are, they have no special privileges...I've encountered a number people pull the "unfair labour accusations" and they were all white native born canadians none were immigrants...the immigrants without fail have been among the hardest working uncomplaining co-workers I've had... Before you say we were just being paranoid, this was a distribution business before computer inventory. We had just spent months fighting various government departments for refusing to hire a wheelchair applicant as an inside salesperson. The government folks just couldn't understand that there was more to it than sitting at a desk with a phone. The worker also had to run back to the warehouse for stock checks while a customer waited. Shelves and shelves of parts up to 7 feet high! Impossible to do from a wheel chair. job description trumps all...mrs wyly lost both human rights cases for being pregnant because the employers reclassified her job to tailor fit her temporary replacements resume, not a thing the judge could do, all nice and legal...the standard line for an employers not to hire someone even though they're highly qualified-"you weren't a good fit" and that's it they don't have to justify it any further... We did have visible minorities among the staff but they had been in Canada for generations. We shared the same culture. We tended to hire from internal recommendations and so everyone tended to be compatible. It was common knowledge in our industry about problems experienced trying to fire bad employees who were recent immigrants - actual cases and not just biased hearsay. Our industry was high tech electronics and very much a "Star Trek" environment. There was little to no actual racism but a great deal of realism as to how our "system" was being abused.it's still racism, only instead of colour it's "where were you born"...So the converse of your premise is quite true. The State CAN and DOES force a company NOT to fire an immigrant! sorry I don't believe it, you may honestly believe what you've been told is true but there's probably more to it... Edited September 20, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) I said they do a better job. Not perfect. no, the US is doing a horrible job...you're being selective with who they do well with, "white people" and in the past not even then, the irish faced huge discrimination problems...but you ignore the balcks and hispanic issues...Different issue than immigration same issue, american blacks were forced immigration...discrimination and lack of integration.. Racism in Europe is far far more commonplace and socially acceptable than it is here. myself being european(dual citizenship) I'll choose to disagree you have no way of substantiating that...Going back to the example of Turkish immigrants to Germany, there are people who are third generation, born in Germany and aren't citizens. I don't know where you're getting your information from.my info obviously better than yours, my mother was born in Germany but her parents weren't German, she turned downed an offer by the German government to accept citizenship even though she hasn't lived there since 1926...a child born in Germany to non-german parents does not get automatic citizenship one of the parents must have permanent resident status, this isn't an anti turkish law my mother was born in germany many decades before there were an turkish migrant workers in germany... -to acquire German citizenship at birth if at least one parent: -has a permanent residence permit; and -has been residing in Germany for at least eight years. Edited September 20, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Argus Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 If the choice is between people like you and immigration, then I pick immigration. Seriously, there are many immigrants who love this country in ways that you'll never understand. Your reply was unnecessarily insulting and personalizing. You might want to work on that. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
The_Squid Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 it's still racism, only instead of colour it's "where were you born"... I disagree... it probably has all to do with colour! Do you think that this employer would accuse someone who is a Dutch immigrant of being able to "pull the race card"? Nope. WB is talking about the dark skinned immigrants. The white immigrants are probably A-OK. I wonder how they feel about dark skinned Canadians who could "pull the race card"? Do they avoid hiring them too? Quote
Argus Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 **applause** Our families were all immigrants once, and Canadian values reflect our awareness that many different cultures worked together building Canada. People come to Canada because of Canadian values Oh please. They come here because they think they can make more money and have a better life here in terms of peace and order. They don't come here because they think we have great 'values'. Tons of immigrants deride our values and cherish their own instead. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 Not necessarily, but, most likely. I've met a lot of immigrants. The number one reason to come here is economic. Everything else is a distant second, but top place among that second tier would be nobody shooting at you. Nothing else really comes close. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 I would bet its a better place to live in part because of CDN values. As opposed to those hellholes with Swedish, Norwegian, German, Dutch, Swiss, Norwegian or Belgian values? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 20, 2012 Report Posted September 20, 2012 Problems that stem from these states' unwillingness to accept immigrants into their society. Rather than accepting them and helping them assimilate, these countries marginalize their immigrant populations, which creates a lot of the problems that we don't have in our multicultural society. Or maybe they're getting different kinds of immigrants from different source countries, or in different numbers. I.e., if 10% of our population were now Muslims of mideast and north african origin, would we be having the same issues as France has? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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