pete t teepee Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 I'm gonna chime in and say I don't buy the "mistake" excuse. It was cheating the same as the conservatives cheated. They both did it, neither one is defensible. That said, NDP has a lotta cheats to go to catch the cons lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) I'm gonna chime in and say I don't buy the "mistake" excuse. It was cheating the same as the conservatives cheated. They both did it, neither one is defensible. That said, NDP has a lotta cheats to go to catch the cons lol. Well. that's your opinion, Pete! Not necessarily fact. It's just your opinion. That being said, I find the situation rather amusing. Both sides are railing against each other but from what I'm hearing, both sides are right! It does sound as if the NDP did nothing wrong, or if they did do wrong it was an honest mistake and rather trivial anyway. So their defense rings true! However, past history shows that if it were a Tory sin under discussion the NDP would be trumpeting that it was a crime against the Universe, on the level of the Watergate breakins! The NDP have always been totally partisan in their criticisms and have shown no limits on their hyperbole. As far as the NDP are concerned, the shoe is now on the other foot. How do you like the fit now? You are innocent but you have made yourselves an easy target and motivated your enemies to use your tactics against you. You ALWAYS attack your rival's character! You ALWAYS make the issue personal, with your attacks more ad hominem than focused specifically on the facts of the issue! Times have changed for politicians. We live in an age where perhaps the memories of voters have not improved but they have easy access with google and other search engines to instantly retrieve what has been said and done before. Old style lambasting now will only come back to bite you! This is true of course for all parties but the NDP is especially vulnerable. They have always been in the forefront of bombastic rhetoric. Their baseline has always been the union rally - appealing to emotion more than their rivals usually do. Time to modernize, M Mulcair! This is what Jack was working so hard to do before he was so suddenly and tragically lost. The sooner you change the tone the sooner you will no longer look like hypocrites. Edited September 4, 2012 by Wild Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete t teepee Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 They ALL know the rules, forwards and backwards. They choose indiscretions that can be validated with plausible excuses. They ALL carry on with the bombastic rhetoric Bill. My previous post was opinion. This one is fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 They ALL know the rules, forwards and backwards. They choose indiscretions that can be validated with plausible excuses. They ALL carry on with the bombastic rhetoric Bill. My previous post was opinion. This one is fact. Yes, they ALL do it! That's no excuse. NOBODY is as good at it as the NDP! Just spend 5 minutes listening to them at any public meeting, especially if the meeting includes Sid Ryan or better yet, Buzz Hargrove and it becomes obvious. The days of "rebble"-rousing are over. Jack knew this. Mulcair sounds much more reasonable when he talks. Still, there is a large contingent of the "old guard" within the NDP. They have matured a lot but they still have a ways to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Yes, they ALL do it! That's no excuse. NOBODY is as good at it as the NDP! Just spend 5 minutes listening to them at any public meeting, especially if the meeting includes Sid Ryan or better yet, Buzz Hargrove and it becomes obvious. The days of "rebble"-rousing are over. Jack knew this. Mulcair sounds much more reasonable when he talks. Still, there is a large contingent of the "old guard" within the NDP. They have matured a lot but they still have a ways to go. You're living in the past. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2006/02/12/ndp-hargrove060212.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 You're living in the past. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2006/02/12/ndp-hargrove060212.html I used Buzz as an example, like I used Sid Ryan. There are many others who could have served. I may be living in the past, but you sir are picking apart my model and ignoring my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 You're ignoring the fact that your point is outdated. The NDP is not that party anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 You're ignoring the fact that your point is outdated. The NDP is not that party anymore. Actually CC, maybe you're right! I started to think about the last time I heard the old "proletariat" rhetoric and realised it's been maybe a decade, provincially or federally! Thank you! You give me hope! I have been saying for a long time that the NDP needed to become much more Tony Blair and much less Sid Ryan. Maybe it's finally been happening. Certainly Jack and now Mulcair are much more practical and sensible than what we saw before. I truly believe that Canada would be better served by having two parties, both with at least a modicum of fixed positions and philosophies. That means Tory and NDP, since the Liberals haven't shown any fixed beliefs for a long time, if ever. They are a brokerage party, changing their values for whatever might get them into power at any given time. Let the Liberals die as they deserve and let the Tories and NDP give Canadians clear choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Hey cool. Thanks for acknowledging that. I'm sure there's plenty of room for the NDP to backslide into its proletariat rhetoric and I would probably stop supporting the party then. Let me tell you though that the only reason I support them now is that they're closer to Tony Blair today than they are Hugo Chavez. Although some posters don't get it or think I'm being pedantic, but this is why it's so important to understand the difference between social democracy and democratic socialism. The NDP used to be the latter, but have moved into the territory of the former. The only reason the party constitution hasn't changed is for the same reason the federal constitution is so hard to change. It needs to be voted on at convention by the membership and its sometimes hard to get everyone to agree to specific wording. Many people that belong to the NDP and are looking for a true socialist choice in Canada are resistant to changing the wording, but that's all they have left in the party now, words on paper. The NDP is certainly a social party, but they're far from a socialist party or the union party anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Hey cool. Thanks for acknowledging that. I'm sure there's plenty of room for the NDP to backslide into its proletariat rhetoric and I would probably stop supporting the party then. Let me tell you though that the only reason I support them now is that they're closer to Tony Blair today than they are Hugo Chavez. Although some posters don't get it or think I'm being pedantic, but this is why it's so important to understand the difference between social democracy and democratic socialism. The NDP used to be the latter, but have moved into the territory of the former. The only reason the party constitution hasn't changed is for the same reason the federal constitution is so hard to change. It needs to be voted on at convention by the membership and its sometimes hard to get everyone to agree to specific wording. Many people that belong to the NDP and are looking for a true socialist choice in Canada are resistant to changing the wording, but that's all they have left in the party now, words on paper. The NDP is certainly a social party, but they're far from a socialist party or the union party anymore. I'm not always as good at acknowledging the other guy is right as I wish I was, CC. If someone's argument is good enough then it has to be accepted, or at least given strong consideration. I worry that now that I'm getting to be an old fart my brain might ossify! And yeah, I can understand how the NDP can't change its spots in a weekend or two. Still, it is very encouraging to see the leadership maturing. Maybe in this situation "trickle down" might work! Isn't it interesting that as the NDP becomes less hardcore socialist their support has dramatically increased! Jack was right! Mind you, they are still not my cup of tea but at least I can respect them. I no longer fear they will get in power and destroy the country. I am reminded of a story about Margaret Thatcher, when she finally lost to Labour and to Tony Blair. She was quoted as saying that Blair would serve Britain well! She recognized that Blair was a sensible leader who would not return Britain to the days of Scargill. Mulcair would not be my first choice but I believe that he will serve Canada well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 I sometimes lose sight of this, but there's an old saying, "Things are never as good--or as bad--as they seem." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 At least with three parties we DO have a choice but if we have only two parties than I think less people will even bother to vote. Just look at the US, two parties who are elected every other election. Why bother to have an election, the Dems are in now, so its the other parties turn, just think the money saved. I'm sure the Tories would like the two party system because they feel they would be the rulling party forever against the NDP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) At least with three parties we DO have a choice but if we have only two parties than I think less people will even bother to vote. Just look at the US, two parties who are elected every other election. Why bother to have an election, the Dems are in now, so its the other parties turn, just think the money saved. I'm sure the Tories would like the two party system because they feel they would be the rulling party forever against the NDP. The more parties the better. The Liberals don't stand for anything though. That's the problem with them. As a brokerage party they just go where the wind blows. The Conservatives could easily split into wings that are neoconservative and socially-liberal/fiscally-conservative. The NDP likewise could split into democratic socialists and social democrats. The Liberals.... they don't belong anywhere. The problem, unfortunately, is that FPTP doesn't work very well with more parties. You need some functional form of PR. Edited September 6, 2012 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 .... Mulcair would not be my first choice but I believe that he will serve Canada well! I'm not sure about that, particularly when it comes to Quebec and separatism. The NDP don't support the Clarity Act, Mulcair says 50% plus 1 is just fine. Sherbrooke declaration) I've read that the Federal Liberals are thinking about a motion asking Parliament to reaffirm its support for the Clarity Act. Good idea in my books as it'll force Mulcair to come clean. This is why why we needed Charest and his full support of Federalism, the reason he was drafted to lead the Liberal party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 anything to deflect away from the most heinous of offenses committed by the CPC that of subverting the very essence of our democratic process...denying people their most fundamental right, the right to vote and a fair election... No need to get yourself upset about this because quite simply,you WILL NOT see it mentioned by the consensus media again.You will however,keep reading about the alleged(but unproven)violations by the Conservative Party concerning the robocalls.It will be rehashed over and over and over... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 You will however, keep reading about the alleged(but unproven)violations by the Conservative Party concerning the robocalls. It will be rehashed over and over and over... have another --- feel free to comment on the details described! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 I'm not sure about that, particularly when it comes to Quebec and separatism. The NDP don't support the Clarity Act, Mulcair says 50% plus 1 is just fine. Sherbrooke declaration) I've read that the Federal Liberals are thinking about a motion asking Parliament to reaffirm its support for the Clarity Act. Good idea in my books as it'll force Mulcair to come clean. This is why why we needed Charest and his full support of Federalism, the reason he was drafted to lead the Liberal party. Quebec will never separate because their Hydro and all their power would stay in Canada. Stop fearing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Thank you! You give me hope! I have been saying for a long time that the NDP needed to become much more Tony Blair Sans the War Criminal bit, hopefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Sans the War Criminal bit, hopefully. What "War Criminal bit"? Is this something real or just another stretch to slam Harper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 What "War Criminal bit"? Is this something real or just another stretch to slam Harper? Nothing to do with Harper...I don't know from where you got that conclusion. It was about Oily Tony, the "facts fixed around the policy," the "sexing up of documents," the unneccessary (therefore illegal) war...the warnings about "45 minutes" before Saddam could unleash destruction upon the dewy shores of England. Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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