socialist Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 We've all heard about the alberta teacher who got in trouble for giving zeros. i guess he expects to be terminated. that's what happens when you against the research of educational experts. heres the story from cbc., http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/08/30/edmonton-dorval-no-zero-termination-hearing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewTeddy Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 I've come to learn that in life, sometimes, it is important to follow the rules, especially the stupid and nonsensical ones. That being said, I hope he gets a job in a province that has fewer stupid rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted August 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) I've come to learn that in life, sometimes, it is important to follow the rules, especially the stupid and nonsensical ones. That being said, I hope he gets a job in a province that has fewer stupid rules. actually this no zero policy can be found coast to coast. educational research backs it up. Heres an article from nova scotia. http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/131227-keep-no-zero-policies-out-of-schools-in-nova-scotia Edited August 30, 2012 by socialist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewTeddy Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 actually this no zero policy can be found coast to coast. educational research backs it up. Heres an article from nova scotia. http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/131227-keep-no-zero-policies-out-of-schools-in-nova-scotia *shrug* At least all the provinces are equally stupid, and will all equally suffer when these idiot students grow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted August 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 *shrug* At least all the provinces are equally stupid, and will all equally suffer when these idiot students grow up. How do you know they will all grow up to be idiots. that is an ignorant statement. they may grow up compassionate because a teacher gave them an option besides failing. its easy to give zeros and research has shown they are damaging to a students progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 How do you know they will all grow up to be idiots. that is an ignorant statement. they may grow up compassionate because a teacher gave them an option besides failing. its easy to give zeros and research has shown they are damaging to a students progress. From your link: Hopefully, school board members across Atlantic Canada will take the time to carefully review the research evidence on no-zero policies. If they do, they’ll find that the evidence does not support the claims made by no-zero supporters.One of the best-known no-zero advocates is Ken O’Connor, an assessment consultant in Ontario. In his book How to Grade for Learning, O’Connor claims that zeros cause students to withdraw from learning. However, the only source he cites to back up this claim is an article in the NASSP Bulletin by Thomas Guskey, an education professor at the University of Kentucky. Guskey does make the statement attributed to him by O’Connor, but cites only one research study to support this claim — a 1992 article in the British Columbia Journal of Special Education by Deborah Selby and Sharon Murphy. In it, Selby and Murphy describe the experiences of six learning-disabled students in mainstream classrooms. These six students had negative experiences with letter grades and blamed themselves for their poor marks. It should be obvious that it is absurd to generalize the experiences of six learning-disabled students to the rest of the student population. And yet this article is regularly cited by Guskey when he makes the claim that grades of zero have a negative impact on students. Even a more recent article by Guskey that appeared in the November 2011 edition of Educational Leadership contains the same claim, with Selby and Murphy’s article again providing the only research support. Clearly, the claim that research evidence strongly supports no-zero policies is flawed. No-zero proponents cannot hide behind the research argument since the evidence for their position is quite weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Setting the kids up for failure. As a comment appeared in the article today about it. Scenario 1 Boss - did you get that report done I needed by today? Worker - No. Boss - Ok no problem, we can try later. Scenario 2 Boss - Did you get that report done I needed by today? Worker - No. Boss - Pack your stuff up, you're fired. Which do you think takes place in the real world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrutz Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 How do you know they will all grow up to be idiots. that is an ignorant statement. they may grow up compassionate because a teacher gave them an option besides failing. its easy to give zeros and research has shown they are damaging to a students progress. Yes, clearly the lesson being learned in Quebec is that the world needs more humanities students who have no concept of the real world beyond their desire to change it into whatever Marxist utopia their profs rant about everyday. A zero is a number, it means nothing more than any other number, it has a value ascribed to it, if the student deserved a 5% would they be given a 5% or is that also not allowed, what lower limit of numbers can a student be given, which 'researcher' has determined the lower limit of allowable percentages that one is allowed to give? Is it now that we give students who deserve a zero a slightly higher failing grade, in effect making that higher grade the new zero? What idiot believes that will make the students feel better about their progress, please raise your hands and be counted, don't be confused if the counting starts at 10, im just concerned for your well being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrutz Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Setting the kids up for failure. As a comment appeared in the article today about it. Scenario 1 Boss - did you get that report done I needed by today? Worker - No. Boss - Ok no problem, we can try later. Scenario 2 Boss - Did you get that report done I needed by today? Worker - No. Boss - Pack your stuff up, you're fired. Which do you think takes place in the real world? Just like the protesting students in Quebec, this isn't about what the real world is, it's about what they want to change in into, by force if required, the rest is just window dressing. Edited August 30, 2012 by gunrutz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Just like the protesting students in Quebec, this isn't about what the real world is, it's about what they want to change in into, by force if required, the rest is just window dressing. I was on board with the Quebec students for about a week. I get what they are doing, but they pay the lowest tuition fees in the country. So more more love for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I was on board with the Quebec students for about a week. I get what they are doing, but they pay the lowest tuition fees in the country. So more more love for them. I disagree with this take on it. I do, mind you, very much agree that it is good, healthy, and wise to recognize the ways in which we might have it better than most of the world in so many respects. But by your reasoning, you shouldn't be concerned about the surveillance state or police brutality, because these things are so much more intrusive and oppressive elsewhere in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 We've all heard about the alberta teacher who got in trouble for giving zeros. i guess he expects to be terminated. that's what happens when you against the research of educational experts. heres the story from cbc., http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/08/30/edmonton-dorval-no-zero-termination-hearing.html I will say this once and once only. THERE IS NO EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH THAT SAYS GIVING OUT 0s HURTS THE STUDENTS. There is an educational philosophy which says that. That philosophy is not supported by most teachers. It however is supported by Administrators, Board Members, and Ministers of Education people who support not for the good of the students but for the good of themselves. When they go to whoever they report to and say graduations are up across the board it sounds good and they want to see statistical improvement from year to year (this btw was the downfall for the Soviet Union so I have no idea why someone who believes in Socialism would support a policy that we already know doesn't work). It however does nothing for the students or society. If you really are going to be a teacher you need to stop being a yes man. Somethings supported by people you admire are wrong and stupid. You are smart enough to figure out all on your own what doesn't make sense then do the research to find out why and form your own beliefs. Start doing that now or you will never contribute to society in any way because for all the good you do you will be doing a whole lot more damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I was on board with the Quebec students for about a week. I get what they are doing, but they pay the lowest tuition fees in the country. So more more love for them. they are made out to be selfish because they pay less than elsewhere in canada but maybe they're right...maybe the other schools are charging too much, maybe we should be finding ways to reduce tuition, get more students into post secondary, reducing their debt load so they can help drive our economy forward when they graduate instead of paying off mountains of debt...I don't know the answer here just trying to see both sides of the issue.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Setting the kids up for failure. As a comment appeared in the article today about it. Scenario 1 Boss - did you get that report done I needed by today? Worker - No. Boss - Ok no problem, we can try later. Scenario 2 Boss - Did you get that report done I needed by today? Worker - No. Boss - Pack your stuff up, you're fired. Which do you think takes place in the real world? both actually...in public and private situations... this is a difficult issue for us non-teachers to judge, we almost need to be teachers to understand it, those who teach everyday have their practical experience but those who study teaching and human behaviour have a different level of knowledge, seeing a bigger picture from different angles...who is right and who is wrong is questionable I can kinda of understand both sides of the debate and I'm sure who is right...it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other situation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I disagree with this take on it. I do, mind you, very much agree that it is good, healthy, and wise to recognize the ways in which we might have it better than most of the world in so many respects. But by your reasoning, you shouldn't be concerned about the surveillance state or police brutality, because these things are so much more intrusive and oppressive elsewhere in the world. I don't think those two are a good comparison. The ever encroaching police state is much more of a concern that tuition fees. Tuition fees have been stagnant in Quebec for close to 20 years while the rest of the country has seen insane rises in tuition. If anything us here in Ontario should be taking to the streets. Not everyone is smart enough to get to college/university and less and less are able to afford it. The police state is effecting everyone at the same time. Whats more intrusive and brutal than a technocratic police state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 both actually...in public and private situations... this is a difficult issue for us non-teachers to judge, we almost need to be teachers to understand it, those who teach everyday have their practical experience but those who study teaching and human behaviour have a different level of knowledge, seeing a bigger picture from different angles...who is right and who is wrong is questionable I can kinda of understand both sides of the debate and I'm sure who is right...it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other situation... Well screw up enough in the real world and you are out of a job. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I don't think those two are a good comparison. The ever encroaching police state is much more of a concern that tuition fees. Tuition fees have been stagnant in Quebec for close to 20 years while the rest of the country has seen insane rises in tuition. If anything us here in Ontario should be taking to the streets. Not everyone is smart enough to get to college/university and less and less are able to afford it. The police state is effecting everyone at the same time. Whats more intrusive and brutal than a technocratic police state? I'm making a point about comfort (and freedom, in my analogy) relative to other places...and how "you already got it good" is no good excuse to telling people their protests are worthless. Hell, you said, "if anything us here in Ontario should be taking to the streets"...after which most American students could say, "Stop your whining, you got it easy!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Well screw up enough in the real world and you are out of a job. Simple as that. I know it doesn't live up to the standard image but it doesn't happen that frequently from my experience, my wife works in the public sector and I've got a lifetime in the private world and F*** ups happen all the time very few people are ever fired...in private sector screw ups are generally the first to be laid off when things get slow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) I know it doesn't live up to the standard image but it doesn't happen that frequently from my experience, my wife works in the public sector and I've got a lifetime in the private world and F*** ups happen all the time very few people are ever fired...in private sector screw ups are generally the first to be laid off when things get slow... That's my experience too. Lots and lots of jobs, with lots and lots of co-workers, all in the private sector. Firings are rare. And the private sector plainly breeds just as much lazines and incompetence as does the public sector. Why wouldn't it? Both are made up of human beings. There's no objective "efficiency meter" which weeds out the bad and rewards on merit. To think so is to insist that theory trumps reality itself. Edited September 1, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westguy Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 actually this no zero policy can be found coast to coast. educational research backs it up. Heres an article from nova scotia. http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/131227-keep-no-zero-policies-out-of-schools-in-nova-scotia even if it is coast to coast - it is boneheaded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westguy Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 How do you know they will all grow up to be idiots. that is an ignorant statement. they may grow up compassionate because a teacher gave them an option besides failing. its easy to give zeros and research has shown they are damaging to a students progress. you are proof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 even if it is coast to coast - it is boneheaded He didn't even read the article. It is an article saying NS shouldn't take up that policy not that, that policy exists. I know for a fact that is not something they do in NS. I have a cousin who teaches there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted September 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 He didn't even read the article. It is an article saying NS shouldn't take up that policy not that, that policy exists. I know for a fact that is not something they do in NS. I have a cousin who teaches there. the no zero policy is in every province. don't try to convince yourself otherwise. wake up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) the no zero policy is in every province. don't try to convince yourself otherwise. wake up. Listen to me they give out 0s in NS, NB, and PEI. That is a fact. The article YOU POSTED says that. Stop it facts don't listen to your mis informed opinions. Edited September 2, 2012 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Do you know where else they give out zeroes? University. In fact, failing to submit any assignment will give you an INC. on your transcript in some programs, resulting in a zero for that class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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