Questions, Misconceptions, Objections,..etc,

[wyly]

2. the Old Testament god was a total jerk.

genocidal maniac, baby killer, sadist, psychopath, schizophrenic, pick one... pick them they all, accurately all describe "god's" behaviour, there's probably a thousand other descriptions equally as low that would fit...if you did a tally of all the crimes committed by god you'd have created a monster far worse than anything hollywood has ever could come up with...instead of countless zombie movies we could have a new genre of "god" horror thrillers...

[Guest Manny]

genocidal maniac, baby killer, sadist, psychopath, schizophrenic, pick one... pick them they all, accurately all describe "god's" behaviour, there's probably a thousand

As above, so below.

[betsy]

I'm sorry, but no, it hasn't. You see, unless you can actually source some actually evidence, you are the one far out of your league.

What evidence are you on about?

[betsy]

Traditional family values, folks!

Much,much better than the preferred "family ties" of evolutionists!

Ha-ha-ha

Edited September 1, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Prove it! What proof do you have that "God hates homosexual acts"? Oh wait, some guy wrote in a book a few millenia ago that some guy claimed that God claimed that he didn't like homosexuality...how credible!

The REALLY REALLY stupid thing is the credibility that people give to the Bible. It's just a book, there isn't anything "holy" about it! People wrote it, not God. God had NOTHING to do with the creation and editing of the Bible. You can say God did, but you have ZERO evidence to back that up...other than what i written in the Bible.

The Bible is just a freaking book. Author: a lot of long-dead dudes, none of them God or "divine" or "prophets". Some of the stuff in there is good advice, some of it garbage. Take it on the whole as the authority of one's life and morality without even questioning it is freaking stupid. Anyone who does that quite frankly is an idiot in the literal sense of the word. Human progress has been pushed back centuries because of the way many people give far too much authority to that book and to their religious authorities (who are only fallible humans like the rest of us with no more authority on matters of "God" than anyone else).

People who take a stance on ie: whether gays should marry or not just because of what it says in an old book written by humans who still thought the earth was flat are fucking morons!!! I'm sorry but it's true.

Oh you're just repeating the same old mantra non-believers petulantly resort to. Name-calling doesn't help either. In fact, it only boosts the morale of some of your opponents - like moi.

It says quite a lot when one is reduced to calling names as a rebutt!

So I'll repeat the same response and challenge to you.

If you really think you're right about the Bible, then go back to that topic, and start refuting the listed facts - one by one!

Put your money where your mouth is, MG.

Edited September 1, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

genocidal maniac, baby killer, sadist, psychopath, schizophrenic, pick one... pick them they all, accurately all describe "god's" behaviour, there's probably a thousand other descriptions equally as low that would fit...if you did a tally of all the crimes committed by god you'd have created a monster far worse than anything hollywood has ever could come up with...instead of countless zombie movies we could have a new genre of "god" horror thrillers...

So you want to think of Him that way.....your free will, your choice. Your imagination goes only as far as Hollywood? How so earthly can you get.

We can't even begin to imagine the whole concept of being God, let alone fully understand His thoughts.

[Smallc]

What evidence are you on about?

Actual real evidence. It shouldn't be too hard.

[betsy]

Actual real evidence. It shouldn't be too hard.

Of what? I'll start ignoring you if you're not serious.....

[Smallc]

Of what? I'll start ignoring you if you're not serious.....

Of how an omnipresent, omi-benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent, being can do so many of the things in the old testament.

[bleeding heart]

And why, by the way, are their different "laws" for gentiles than for Jews?

[cybercoma]

Of how an omnipresent, omi-benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent, being can do so many of the things in the old testament.

Just out of curiosity have you ever read St. Augustine's Confessions or any second material about it?

edit: fixed typo

Edited September 1, 2012 by cybercoma

[Moonlight Graham]

Oh you're just repeating the same old mantra non-believers petulantly resort to. Name-calling doesn't help either. In fact, it only boosts the morale of some of your opponents - like moi.

It says quite a lot when one is reduced to calling names as a rebutt!

So I'll repeat the same response and challenge to you.

If you really think you're right about the Bible, then go back to that topic, and start refuting the listed facts - one by one!

Put your money where your mouth is, MG.

Why don't you answer my challenge first. Between the name-calling, mine is a very legitimate argument, and one that if Christian literalists begin to face with honest critical thought will cause their whole belief-system to come crashing down before them.

Sometimes name-calling is in poor taste. And sometimes it's just the darn truth.

I don't have a problem with spirituality, and I don't have a problem with believing in a higher power (call it God or mother nature or whatever one wishes), but I have a huge problem with a group of people denying the rights of others based on what some human wrote in a book a couple thousand years ago. The Bible is as much the Word of God as is anything written by Socrates/Plato, Aristotle, St. Augustine, Hobbes, Nietzsche, Marx, or any other philosophical text.

[Moonlight Graham]

Just out of curiosity have you ever read St. Augustine's Confessions or any second material about it?

edit: fixed typo

I've read his "On Christian Doctrine". What does that the above book say about evidence?

[betsy]

Of how an omnipresent, omi-benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent, being can do so many of the things in the old testament.

Explain your question.

[betsy]

And why, by the way, are their different "laws" for gentiles than for Jews?

A long, good read. These are just excerpts:

The Mosaic Law: Its Function and Purpose in the New Testament

Study By: J. Hampton Keathley, III

Introduction

A great cause of confusion today concerns the place of the Mosaic law in the New Testament believer’s life. While this short study cannot begin to cover all the issues involved, it is my hope that it will shed some light and remove some of the confusion.

One of the profound emphases of the New Testament, especially the epistles of Paul, is that Christians are no longer under the rule of the Mosaic law. This truth is stated in no uncertain terms and in various ways (see Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21; 5:1, 13; 2 Cor. 3:7-18), but in spite of this, there have always been those who insist that the Mosaic Law, at least the Ten Commandments, are still in force for the Christian. In regard to the relation of Christian ethics to the Mosaic Law, Luck writes:

There are Christian teachers of repute who consider the Mosaic law to be the present-day rule of life for the Christian.1 A view not infrequently found among earnest, orthodox believers is that although we are not saved by the law, once we have been justified by faith, then the Mosaic law becomes our rule of life. Those holding such a view generally make a sharp division of the Mosaic law into two parts, which they distinguish as the moral and the ceremonial. The ceremonial portion they consider as having found its fulfillment in Christ at His first advent, and thus as having now passed away. But the moral portion of the Mosaic law, say they, is still in force as the believer’s rule of life. The treatment given to Christian ethics by some highly respected authors is indeed but little more than an exposition of the Decalogue.

It seems exceedingly strange that Bible-believing Christians should advocate such a view, when the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the believer in Christ is not any longer under the Mosaic law in its entirety… Indeed after having been delivered from the law, to deliberately place ourselves once again under its [control] is said to be “falling from grace.”

But let it be immediately understood that this does not mean to say that we should necessarily behave in a manner just opposite to what the Mosaic law commands—that we should kill, steal, bear false witness, etc. Long before the law was given through Moses, it was utterly wrong to do such evil things. . .2

But a great deal of confusion exists over the issues of law and grace and the place of the Mosaic law in the New Testament believer’s life. However, the basic principle is that the “fusion” of law and grace brings a “confusion” which results in sterile legalism. Because of man’s natural bent toward either legalism or license, the place and function of the Law has been an issue in the Christian community since the very early days of the church. There have always been those who have sought to put the Christian back under the Law or make the Law necessary for both salvation and sanctification. As a result large sections of the New Testament are written directly to this issue (see Acts 15 and the council at Jerusalem; Romans 5:10; 6:14; 7:1f; 2 Cor. 3:6-18; and the entire book of Galatians). These passages were written against a legalistic use of the Law, one which promotes works to gain points with either God or people; works of self-effort rather than a life lived by the power and personal leading of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, other parts of the New Testament are written against license and the misuse of liberty (Gal. 5:13ff. Rom. 6:1ff; 8:4ff; Tit. 2:11-14). But the answer is never to put the Christian back under the Law, but rather a proper understanding and appreciation of God’s grace to us in Christ. Christian liberty is not the right to do as one pleases, but the power, desire, and will to do as one ought in and by the power of God and a regenerated life.

This is ultimately the focus of Titus 2:11-14. The glorious manifestation of God’s grace in Christ instructs and trains believers in how to live.3 This grace provides the incentive, the motive, and the means. Regarding Titus 2:11-14 Ryrie writes:

The verb teaching encompasses the whole concept of growth—discipline, maturing, obedience, progress, and the like. This involves denial of improper things and direction into proper channels. These five terms—godliness, worldly lusts, soberly, righteously, godly—do not describe the content of grace teaching so much as they indicate the object and purposeful goal of that teaching. And this intent is, according to this passage, the ultimate purpose of the Incarnation of Christ. He came to display the grace of God in the changed lives of his people. The final cause of the revelation of the grace of God in Christ is not creed but character.4

The Law of Moses Given to Israel

The Mosaic Law is what we are most concerned about in relation to the New Testament believer. This consisted of 365 negative commands and 248 positive for a total of 613 commands. These may also be divided into three parts or sections (see below)—the moral, the social, and the ceremonial. As such, it covered every possible area of the life of Israel. It should be stressed that the moral principles embodied in the Mosaic Law given at Sinai were merely the codified expression of the eternal moral law of God as it was given to Israel to govern her life as a nation in order to experience God’s blessing under the Abrahamic covenant. For more on this aspect, see below.

The Origin and Source of the Mosaic Law

Though part of the Law was mediated by angels, God is the origin and source of the Mosaic Law, which stems from the eternal and holy character of God. This is true even of the natural law written in the heart or conscience of man (Exodus 31:1b; Acts 7:53; Rom. 2:14-16; Heb. 2:1-2).

more...

http://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament

Edited September 2, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

If he doesn't make mistakes, then he would hardly condemn the acts of homosexuals, whom he created.

Question: "What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?"

Answer: The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.

God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that people become homosexuals because of sin (Romans 1:24-27) and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as some people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person’s choosing to sin by giving in to sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger/rage, does that make it right for him to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true with homosexuality.

However, the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 4:13).

http://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-Bible.html

[bleeding heart]

...

Edited September 2, 2012 by bleeding heart

[betsy]

Why don't you answer my challenge first.

What do you mean "answer the challenge first?"

I already gave the challenge! The topic, THE BIBLE!

I've already given some points that refutes your cliched claim. The ball is now in your court.

It has always been....since that topic was posted!

Between the name-calling, mine is a very legitimate argument, and one that if Christian literalists begin to face with honest critical thought will cause their whole belief-system to come crashing down before them

Well I don't think I'm a true literalist since I've conceded several times that the Bible is also full of analogies, and that I see science as a gift from God - therefore I can go where scientific evidence leads. However, there are also lots of things in the Bible that one cannot contort, twist or change around to suit however you want it to be - not unless you're a relativist, which means you've got no set standard.

As I've said, I've already given you SEVERAL challenges listed in the Bible. I hope your critical and honest mind does not think that since the topic (The Bible) is old, that therefore you can quietly ignore its point and sweep it under the rug?

Yes, yours is a legitimate argument to which I've already provided a legitimate answer, plus the thrown challenge to boot. Your whole belief-system is under attack in The Bible. Defend it, if you can.

If not, then stop raking up the same old stale mantra - or else I say you're doing your mantra trying to convince yourself, not me.

Edited September 2, 2012 by betsy

[Smallc]

Explain your question.

How can a being that is utterly perfect be a jealous murderer? Does this not give you any pause, whatsoever?

[betsy]

How can a being that is utterly perfect be a jealous murderer? Does this not give you any pause, whatsoever?

You view it that way because you are placing yourself equal to God.

He is God. The Creator. Who provided everything.

What would you expect God to say, "go ahead, worship and give thanks to somebody else?"

The wages of sin is death. Humans are sinners, and sinners die. Without the grace of God, you're dead.

He is God. He can do what He wants with His creation. He has plans. You may not agree with Him - as you may not agree with your boss at work so your option is to quit the job or put up with it - except there is no other option with God - unless He lets you have that option.

We may rebel and scream "Not fair!" or call Him names, or even turn away from Him (like some ex-Christians did)....but at the end of the day, we know we are powerless and we're lost without Him.

Of course you don't see the point because you don't believe He exists.

If you don't believe in God, you don't believe it.

Edited September 3, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman, on 31 August 2012 - 09:57 AM, said: If he doesn't make mistakes, then he would hardly condemn the acts of homosexuals, whom he created.

http://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-Bible.html

I don't care to see a whole bunch of Bible verses about forgiveness of sin, including homosexuals.

YOU said that "God does not make mistakes," and since He made homosexuals, obviously they are not a "mistake" and therefore the same as you and I in creation. If he created sin, he's hardly perfect as you claimed, right?

So no Bible verses, please. I'd like your explanation for what you said about God's perfection/not making mistakes in relation to His creation of homosexuals.

As a side note, since all sin is equal and worthy of forgiveness in God's eyes according to the Bible verses you quoted for me, why are you focused on SSM? And why, as I've asked repeatedly, don't you just leave their "sinning" between them and God? Why do you think you have to control it?

[betsy]

I don't care to see a whole bunch of Bible verses about forgiveness of sin, including homosexuals.

YOU said that "God does not make mistakes," and since He made homosexuals, obviously they are not a "mistake" and therefore the same as you and I in creation. If he created sin, he's hardly perfect as you claimed, right?

So no Bible verses, please. I'd like your explanation for what you said about God's perfection/not making mistakes in relation to His creation of homosexuals.

Well obviously you didn't read the link.

As a side note, since all sin is equal and worthy of forgiveness in God's eyes according to the Bible verses you quoted for me, why are you focused on SSM?

Eh?

The discussion was about SSM! It got brought up! Hello?

And why, as I've asked repeatedly, don't you just leave their "sinning" between them and God? Why do you think you have to control it?

Eh? We were discussing, for crying out loud!

I am against SSM....and I can say so and give all my reasons and more as to why! Look who's trying to have control! Over free speech!

First there was the "buck-passer," and now, here is "control button!" What's with you guys, ironically, stepping on your tongues...

Ay-ya-ya-ya-yah. <bangs head on wall>

Bye-bye, AW. Anyway, you're not really serious about discussion, remember?

Edited September 2, 2012 by betsy

[cybercoma]

I've read his "On Christian Doctrine". What does that the above book say about evidence?

It's not the evidence part that I'm referring to, but his exposition on why a benevolent God would allow such deplorable suffering in the world.

[Guest American Woman]

Bye-bye, AW. Anyway, you're not really serious about discussion, remember?

Since I never said that, no, I don't remember. But Bye-bye. Adios. Sayonara. So long. Farewell. I bid you adieu.

[Moonlight Graham]

It's not the evidence part that I'm referring to, but his exposition on why a benevolent God would allow such deplorable suffering in the world.

The thing is, with Augustine as with any human being, it's all just guesswork. It's a theory, which, in the end, is a wild guess on what the will of God is. I find Augustine's opinions very interesting, and a bunch make sense (others not, like "just war"), but I think for ANYONE to claim they think they know the will of God is incredibly foolish and arrogant.

People take different things in their life as "meanings" from God. "Oh wow, I almost got hit by a bus, but I had to tie my shoelace before crossing the street...this must be God's will that saved me because I'm meant to live!". And how would anyone know this? It could be, and likely is, just luck. Or heck maybe it is God's will...the point is it's impossible to know. Like Socrates, we should be so humble to know that we know so very little or nothing, and thinking this way is what makes us wise ("Socratic wisdom").

Christianity seems like a pretty simple thing: it's about love. It doesn't matters whether Jesus was even the true divine son of God or just some guy, the message is still the same: Spread love everywhere to everyone, be accepting, do not judge, fill your whole heart & being & actions with love & let it loose on the world. Does anything beyond that even matter?