Questions, Misconceptions, Objections,..etc,

[msj]

No but I wish he was dead, actually...

If the report feature worked I would report this.

Very classy, Manny, very classy.

[msj]

Posting that cartoon risks getting you killed; and not by Christians.

Under the assumption that Manny is a "Christian" I really don't think their [Christian] position has evolved all that much since the dark ages/crusade days.

[Charles Anthony]

Everyone,

This is a global reminder.

Commentary like this:

No but I wish he was dead, actually...

is unacceptable in this forum.

Ch. A.

[betsy]

I'd like to publicly apologise to Canadien for the way I poked at his faith. I was wrong, according to ROMANS 14 and 15.

[Mighty AC]

I wouldn't sweat it Betsy. In order to advance as a society we have to promote good ideas and discredit bad ones. Faith is an idea that needs to be examined, mocked and discredited. Far too many people avoid this practice because somehow our culture has decided to insulate religion from rational discussion. Fortunately, this is slowly changing.

[Sleipnir]

Correction: God does not hate homosexuals. He hates homosexual acts.

Correction: God does not hate homosexual acts. He hates people who uses 'his word' to further their own agenda.

[betsy]

Sure, and from a Christian perspective you can probably see the "joy" of 20 children getting the best Christmas present ever! They are now dancing with Jesus!

The quote from MSJ was taken from the thread, "Why do we have monsters?"

http://www.mapleleaf...pic=22111&st=15

I had to bring it back up on this thread. This morning, the message by Charles Price was titled, "Joy to the World," and the message somehow addressed the comment made by MSJ - and the meaning of the word, "joy" in particular was explained.

It was enlightening for me - for I've erroneously associated that word with "happiness."

The following is an excerpt from the transcript of today's rendition of Living Truth.

This word joy occurs only once in relation to the birth of Jesus, the Christmas story. And that was when these angels appeared to the shepherds out in the fields on the night of Jesus’ birth. And they said, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people."

Now I want to talk about this because it sounds great, doesn’t it? Good news of great joy. But I also suggest to you there is something incongruous about this announcement at this time to these shepherds, and I will tell you why I say that.

But a short while later an enormous tragedy took place in the town of Bethlehem. King Herod ordered the massacre of all the babies under two. I imagine that some of those babies were in the families of some of these shepherds or they were related to some of those families, or they were nephews or nieces, if not their own children, and families in their community.

-----------------

Now I looked up in my dictionary – I have a shorter Oxford English dictionary, which they call it the shorter one but it’s two volumes and it’s big and thick. And that’s why I don’t have the real one, which is about 20 volumes.

And it defines joy primarily as an emotion, which of course it is. And the words they associate with it are "to rejoice, to delight, to gladden, to enjoy."

But I would like to extend that definition as to why that emotion exists that we call joy to looking to see how this word is used in the Scriptures. It is used over 200 times in the Bible.

And it is used in a context, which is forward-looking, or outward looking, from the immediate circumstance and situation a person finds himself in.

Let me give you some examples. In Hebrews 12:2 it talks there about Jesus Christ going to the cross. And the cross, of course, was a particularly brutal form of capital punishment, spread eagled like this, nailed to a cross of wood through the hands and feet. And it says of Jesus,

"…Who for the joy set before him endured the cross."

Now the context he puts joy in there is not in the immediate event of the cross, that that was a joyful thing. But because of the joy set before Him, because of the consequences, because of what’s coming, because of what God is going to do, there was joy in the immediate hard, painful situation.

Joy is not the same as happiness. Happiness is a good feeling on a good day. The sun is shining; you are lying on the beach. You have got a nice ice cream in your hand, and you are happy. But then a cloud moves across the sky, blocks the sun, drops cold, wet raindrops on you, the ice cream falls into the sand, and you are not happy anymore.

And it’s a fairly superficial nice circumstance. That is not what joy is about.

When Jesus for joy endured the cross, it was not about nice circumstances.

And later in the book of James, James Chapter 1:2, James writes this:

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers…"

And what do you expect the rest of the sentence to be? When the sun is shining and the grass is green?

No, he says this:

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,"

Let me pause there – it’s not the end of the sentence, but it sounds a bit masochistic at that point doesn’t it? You know, masochism is finding joy in pain.

"Consider it pure joy…when you face trials of many kinds…"

And then he says why:

"…because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance."

In other words, consider it joy when you face these trials because these trials are bringing about something that is deeper and richer in your life.

It’s not that the joy is in the trial itself or in the pain itself or in the difficulties themselves, but in what you know God, who delights to mould our lives to make us what we need to be, is bringing about something better.

Now joy is of course an emotion. But emotions don’t exist in a vacuum. We don’t just have no reason to either be joyful or no reason to be miserable.

I remember reading a book by Larry Crabb in which he quotes a psychologist called Albert Ellis. And Albert Ellis writes about what he calls the ABC of our emotions.

Now he says, there is A, an activating event, something happens. There is B, a belief about that event. And there is C, the consequent emotion.

That’s why he says, "ABC".

Activating event, belief about the event and the consequent emotions.

Now Albert Ellis says you don’t just from A to C. The event does not cause the emotion. What causes the emotion, whether it is good or bad, is what you believe about that event.

So he gives an example.

Two men are standing in a rainstorm. One is mad and the other is glad. Same event – standing in the rainstorm – with conflicting – totally conflicting emotions – one is mad; one is glad.

What is the difference? One is a golfer; the other is a gardener.

Now if you ask the man who is mad, "Why are you mad?" He will say, "Because it’s raining."

If you ask the guy who is glad, "Why are you glad?" He will say, "Because it’s raining."

So they both blame the same event, but the totally different emotion is because how they perceive and what they believe about that event.

Now you see, when Scripture talks about joy it is never talking about something superficial. more....

http://www.livingtru...s/GNJ/GNJ_2.pdf

Going back to the 20 children that were massacred, when the Christian - your link - referred to joy, it was looking beyond that violence. Christians believe that we are only passing through in this world. This is just a temporary stop. Hence the joy a Christian would refer to that incident, is the joy that for these little ones, they've gone where they should go.

The message by one of the grieving parents directly affected by that tragedy sums up how a Christian would view trials such as this:

Thank you for all of your prayers and kind words of support. As we work through this nightmare, we’re reminded how much we’re loved and supported on this earth and by our Father in heaven. As much as she’s needed here and missed by her mother, brother and me, Ana beat us all to paradise. I love you sweetie girl.

http://blogs.ottawac...r-his-daughter/

Edited December 16, 2012 by betsy

[Sleipnir]

Going back to the 20 children that were massacred, when the Christian - your link - referred to joy, it was looking beyond that violence. Christians believe that we are only passing through in this world. This is just a temporary stop. Hence the joy a Christian would refer to that incident, is the joy that for these little ones, they've gone where they should go.

The Christians joy of 20 children being massacred? Okay...

[guyser]

The Christians joy of 20 children being massacred? Okay...

No shit.

Like I said in another thread, Gods will and all that crap.

I dont know why, dont know how, but uber-zealots cant smell a pile of shit an inch from their nose...thus they keep stepping in it.

[sharkman]

The Christians joy of 20 children being massacred? Okay...

No. It's the taking of comfort that your loved one is in a better place. If you can't understand that, then I can't help you.

[guyser]

No. It's the taking of comfort that your loved one is in a better place. .

Let me ask you.....if you are a parent of one of these 6 yr old in Newtown, would you think your child is in a better place?

[sharkman]

Yes, I would attempt to comfort myself and my family with that thought. How would you comfort yourself?

What a person really wants in that situation, if one can be honest, is not revenge, or 'justice' or to end one's own life. What one wants is their child back. But we can't have it that way, so where do you turn? Justice or revenge? There is no justice in a situation like this IMO. And revenge consumes you and makes you its plaything. Does it take more strength to kill the murderer(if that were possible in this case) or forgive them. I think it's harder to forgive, but forgiveness kills your pain better than booze. Not everyone has the capacity to forgive though.

[guyser]

Yes, I would attempt to comfort myself and my family with that thought. How would you comfort yourself?

I am prejudiced so I certainly would not look to God or heaven for any comfort as I dont believe any would come.

The question was posed because I seen no comfort , no assurance that the kid is in a better place. Afterall, if thats my kid the better place is home with me and the mom. Nothing would amend that thought.

I suppose if this were a kidnap/torture thing, well, then yes, I would agree the child is in a better place, but that would mean (to me) 6 feet under and not under the control of some criminal idiot.

The statement...

Hence the joy a Christian would refer to that incident, is the joy that for these little ones, they've gone where they should go.

boggles my mind since they are exactly in a place they should not be going.

No 6 yr old should be'there' ...now tomorrow or ever. It is along the same lines of idiocy as my earlier comment re "Gods will'

[sharkman]

You haven't mentioned what comfort you would seek if your 6 yr old was gunned down. It's fine to disagree with what christians would do, but what would you do?

I suppose it's better not to think about it.

[guyser]

You haven't mentioned what comfort you would seek if your 6 yr old was gunned down. It's fine to disagree with what christians would do, but what would you do?

I suppose it's better not to think about it.

Hmm...I have no idea where or what I would seek comfort in . I imagine a few things would be sought , some alcohol for a spell (not a drinker so wouldnt be drunk) not hard drugs either.

I dont know, my rage would be pretty huge and somewhat consuming. I dont think I know the answer or definitive answer

[Guest Manny]

We can be thankful that we don't have to. Now you can obsess on it if you want, and play with it in your mind if you want. Better not to, IMO.

I read a bit about this today that said a coroner was answering some questions from reporters and one of them asked, on TV was, how many times did you cry when you were doing this today? That's like obsessing on other peoples pain and suffering.

[WIP]

Let me ask you.....if you are a parent of one of these 6 yr old in Newtown, would you think your child is in a better place?

A famous quote from Mark Twain:"everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one is in a hurry to get there."

Pretty much sums up that what people profess to believe, and what they actually feel at an unconscious level are not the same thing. If these young children are innocent, and therefore automatically go to heaven, then Christians shouldn't be shocked by a few cases where mothers killed their young children because they feared they might grow up and live a life of sin....and go to the other place instead. The beliefs in heaven, ghosts and soul travel, are not much more than an unwillingness to face death and the prospect of not existing in any form.

[betsy]

Hmm...I have no idea where or what I would seek comfort in . I imagine a few things would be sought , some alcohol for a spell (not a drinker so wouldnt be drunk) not hard drugs either.

I dont know, my rage would be pretty huge and somewhat consuming. I dont think I know the answer or definitive answer

You don't know where to turn for comfort. So you just hope that nothing tragic strikes you and makes you feel the magnitude of the kind of desolations brought on by the feelings of loss....quite similar to the massacre that occurred. Sudden. Unexpected.

You don't know how to answer because you haven't been in that situation.

Who knows, you might be the kind who'll go spiralling down in despair, and end up doing the murder-suicide!

You. don't. know.

So, don't knock down other's ways of coping....

Edited December 19, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

The tragic happening in Newtown....even the perpetrator of the crime deserves a whole lot of sympathy.

[betsy]

We can be thankful that we don't have to. Now you can obsess on it if you want, and play with it in your mind if you want. Better not to, IMO.

I read a bit about this today that said a coroner was answering some questions from reporters and one of them asked, on TV was, how many times did you cry when you were doing this today? That's like obsessing on other peoples pain and suffering.

I know. Someone asked the coroner if anyone suffered - meaning did anyone take longer to die. Even if someone did suffer, why would you want to say that on the papers and cause more pain? What good is that information for....other than to add more pain. Especially to the parents of the victims. It wouldn't change anything.

It's so repulsive how media swarmed on the children too!

Edited December 19, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

The Christian movie, COURAGEOUS, also touched on how to cope with grief brought on by loss. The movie has to be seen to understand the concept of it. It struck me as "liberating".....what a wonderful way to deal and cope with death of a loved one. To look at it from this angle.

I still think of the farmer who'd suffered so much loss - his entire big family (pregnant wife and 9 children) - all wiped out in an instant. When there used to be so much chatters and bustling in what one can only imagine to be such a busy household...........gone suddenly silent.

And his faith that kept him strong through it all.

It humbled me. I was going through a tough time myself at that time......how insignificant my pain was compared to his. He inspired me. He reminded me where to look ....whom to cling to....for comfort.

Edited December 19, 2012 by betsy

[sharkman]

You don't know where to turn for comfort. So you just hope that nothing tragic strikes you and makes you feel the magnitude of the kind of desolations brought on by the feelings of loss....quite similar to the massacre that occurred. Sudden. Unexpected.

You don't know how to answer because you haven't been in that situation.

Who knows, you might be the kind who'll go spiralling down in despair, and end up doing the murder-suicide!

You. don't. know.

So, don't knock down other's ways of coping....

But that is sort of knocking down his way of coping with it. I don't think that suggesting that someone may do a murder/suicide has any value.

I am a Christian, but I don't think I have some kind of magic deal with God that he will wipe away the pain of such an occurrence. I don't think people get over the loss of a young child, let alone the murder of their young child whether they know God or not. It reminds me of a line in that song Cassadee Pope sang, "They say I'll be okay, but I'm not going to ever get over you".

[sharkman]

We can be thankful that we don't have to. Now you can obsess on it if you want, and play with it in your mind if you want. Better not to, IMO.

I read a bit about this today that said a coroner was answering some questions from reporters and one of them asked, on TV was, how many times did you cry when you were doing this today? That's like obsessing on other peoples pain and suffering.

Yeah, some things are better left alone.

[betsy]

But that is sort of knocking down his way of coping with it. I don't think that suggesting that someone may do a murder/suicide has any value.

I said, "who knows."

Since we don't know how someone will react when faced with it....especially when he's admitted that he doesn't know where to turn for comfort.

We see all this rash of murder-suicides going on around us almost on a daily basis. It's hard not to include that among the possible reactions by someone who is in utter state of despair. I'm not trying to knock his way of coping with it.....please don't get me wrong.

That way of coping seems to be among the options now, as we see the reality in the news. What more with someone who believes there is nothing that awaits us beyond this earthly life...unexpectedly seeing their child (which to some is what gives purpose and meaning to their life), suddenly dead?

What are the chances that a Christian who has faith and trust in God would take his own life.....or worse, take others along with him?

I am a Christian, but I don't think I have some kind of magic deal with God that he will wipe away the pain of such an occurrence. I don't think people get over the loss of a young child, let alone the murder of their young child whether they know God or not. It reminds me of a line in that song Cassadee Pope sang, "They say I'll be okay, but I'm not going to ever get over you".

It won't wipe away the pain. Pain reminds us of our earthly life. That we are living in an earthly world.

But our faith in God does makes it very much bearable.....more so that we rejoice even in the midst of hardship.

Edited December 19, 2012 by betsy

[GostHacked]

You turn to family and friends. They are the ones who will help these parents through this tragedy.