You may hate Rob Ford . . .

[Black Dog]

No one is blaming the victim - and sometimes the 'claiming that people are blaming the victim crap' has to stop. As I said, I would be more concerned with helping prevent a rape, and that most definitely includes date rape (if not almost exclusively), than I would about being PC. If someone interprets that as "blaming the victim," the problem lies with them, and they could be doing some harm because they may make people afraid to step up with some sound advice.

I think we can agree that "don't dress like a whore" falls outside the bounds of "sound advice". In any case, there's another issue here: as a society, we ask a lot of women to keep themselves safe, yet there's no big push to get men to stop violating women.

As I said, many parents don't let their young teen girls dress too provocatively. I'll ask again. Why do you think that is?

Perhaps in part because the (fallacious) notion that dressing provocatively leads to rape?

Edited September 4, 2012 by Black Dog

[Boges]

In any case, there's another issue here: as a society, we ask a lot of women to keep themselves safe, yet there's no big push to get men to stop violating women.

Other than the fact it's illegal and being convicted of sexual assault is a serious crime results in lengthy jail time?

Edited September 4, 2012 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Other than the fact it's illegal and being convicted of sexual assault is a serious crime results in lengthy jail time?

Yeah? How's that working out?

[Boges]

Yeah? How's that working out?

Well why does anyone do anything illegal?

Should there be a renewed public awareness campaign that rape is wrong? Similar to the idea that shooting people in a street party is wrong?

Are rates of rape and sexual assault on the rise? And if they are, what would you attribute that to?

The events that spawned Krista Ford's comment were apparently perpetrated by one guy. The media attention it's garnered certainly is an indication to the public that this guy is a vicious criminal.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Well why does anyone do anything illegal?

Should there be a renewed public awareness campaign that rape is wrong? Similar to the idea that shooting people in a street party is wrong?

Problem is, the popular perception of rape and what it actually looks like in the real world are two different things. I'm sure there's lots of "nice guys" who would never attack a girl in a dark alley but might well take advantage of one that's passed out drunk at a party.

IMO, there needs to be a serious effort made to make men take responsibility for rape, starting with education efforts aimed at making them understand the concept of consent.

Are rates of rape and sexual assault on the rise? And if they are, what would you attribute that to?

Police reported sexual assault is going down the same way as most violent crimes. However, we know that it's the category of violent crime that is least likely to be reported.

The events that spawned Krista Ford's comment were apparently perpetrated by one guy. The media attention it's garnered certainly is an indication to the public that this guy is a vicious criminal

Yup. And that type of assault is the least common.

[jacee]

In any case, there's another issue here: as a society, we ask a lot of women to keep themselves safe, yet there's no big push to get men to stop violating women.

Well said.

Parents of young rapists take note and remind your sons that a bathing suit at the beach is not an invitation to rape.

[Boges]

Police reported sexual assault is going down the same way as most violent crimes. However, we know that it's the category of violent crime that is least likely to be reported.

Probably because it's very difficult to prove a rape happened unless there's bodily fluids and genetic trauma observable, otherwise it's he said she said. Take a look at what happened in the Duke Lacrosse case in the US.

To discover those things an invasive rape kit has to be performed.

I'm not taking a position on this just stating what appears to be the facts involved.

[Black Dog]

Probably because it's very difficult to prove a rape happened unless there's bodily fluids and genetic trauma observable, otherwise it's he said she said. Take a look at what happened in the Duke Lacrosse case in the US.

To discover those things an invasive rape kit has to be performed.

I'm not taking a position on this just stating what appears to be the facts involved.

Our results suggest that women who have been raped by an assailant who is not a stranger and those who have no physical injuries following a rape are more reluctant to involve the police. The increased probability of police involvement when a woman is sexually assaulted by a stranger or when the victim has some physical injury is consistent with previous studies.[3–5] This behaviour may reflect a common misconception that there should be some physical violence inflicted by a stranger for a rape to be considered "genuine." When an individual is confronted with a situation that does not conform to this widely held concept of what constitutes rape, she may be reluctant to report the incident, feeling that she is to blame or will not be believed. Although overwhelming evidence suggests that most sexual assaults involve someone who is known to the victim and do not result in physical injury,6 it is likely that this type of assault remains underreported, and this, in turn, reinforces the social myth of what constitutes rape. Ironically, there is growing evidence that it is precisely this type of rape profile that may lead to more severe emotional adjustment problems in the long run.[7–9]

Link

[Boges]

Link

No where in that study say that there are ways to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that rape occurred without some physical evidence behind left behind.

Sort of like domestic violence. If a woman hits a man and doesn't have any evidence of that she did (bruises or injuries) how can any charges be laid?

I'm not saying it's right that rapes go unreported but just as the burden of proof for committing a crime is high in instances of murder, robbery etc it's got to be the safe for rape.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Boges

[Black Dog]

No where in that study say that there are ways to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that rape occurred without some physical evidence behind left behind.

Sort of like domestic violence. If a woman hits a man and doesn't have any evidence of that she did (bruises or injuries) how can any charges be laid?

I'm not saying it's right that rapes go unreported but just as the burden of proof for committing a crime is high in instances of murder, robbery etc it's got to be the safe for rape.

I have no idea what relevance this has to the discussion.

[Boges]

I have no idea what relevance this has to the discussion.

You said

Police reported sexual assault is going down the same way as most violent crimes. However, we know that it's the category of violent crime that is least likely to be reported.

I'm just speculating as to why this may be.

[jacee]

Problem is, the popular perception of rape and what it actually looks like in the real world are two different things. I'm sure there's lots of "nice guys" who would never attack a girl in a dark alley but might well take advantage of one that's passed out drunk at a party.

Those are not "nice guys". They are rapists.

Their parents taught them it's okay to rape a girl who's dressed "provocatively" or drunk, I guess.

Edited September 4, 2012 by jacee

[Black Dog]

You said

I'm just speculating as to why this may be.

And I'm just trying to get back to the main point. Do you think it's fair or right that women should be asked to assume the bulk of the burden when it comes to preventing crimes against them?

[Boges]

And I'm just trying to get back to the main point. Do you think it's fair or right that women should be asked to assume the bulk of the burden when it comes to preventing crimes against them?

Well the main point of this thread Ford's impending court case. Massive thread shift has occured.

Someone who would force themselves on a woman, regardless of the circumstances, is wrong. And the fact that they would take pleasure in doing that has some serious moral issues.

And a woman being raped regardless of what they are wearing, should never be blamed.

That being said, when someone says prudence should be taken when going into a place where assault is more likely, they shouldn't be demonized as someone who "blames the victim".

Edited September 4, 2012 by Boges

[Guest American Woman]

I've been witness to the aftermath (bloody nose, yelling) of an attempted date rape in a college dorm. The targeted girl was the only one in the room wearing pants VS a miniskirt. If you want to rape someone, pants won't stop you.

Of course not. Who has said otherwise?

Edited September 4, 2012 by American Woman

[cybercoma]

No one is blaming the victim

Saying the victim makes herself a target with her attire is blaming the victim. It says that her decisions brought about her rape. That's bullshit. The only person's decisions that brought about the rape are the rapist's. Period. A woman should be able to walk down the street fully nude and not expect to be raped. Edited September 4, 2012 by cybercoma

[Guest American Woman]

A scantily clad young girl doesn't MAKE him do anything.

A rapist MAKES his own choices.

You ARE blaming victims.

I never said a scantily clad girl MADE him do anything. Try reading what I did say, and then get over your "you ARE blaming the victim" nonsense. I am doing no such thing.

I'll ask you, since you didn't touch on it - why do you think so many parents don't allow their young daughters to dress in scanty, provocative clothes?

[cybercoma]

a scantily clad young girl may be more likely to make an intoxicated date lose his head and control

Back it up or drop the claim.

[cybercoma]

Well said.

Parents of young rapists take note and remind your sons that a bathing suit at the beach is not an invitation to rape.

Seriously. If we spent half as much time telling boys that putting their hands on a woman without her consent is completely unacceptable as we do telling young girls that dressing like "whores" is bad, we wouldn't have nearly as many rapes and sexual assaults as we do. Nope. Instead it's about how the girl is dressing. It's seriously ridiculous.

[Guest American Woman]

I think we can agree that "don't dress like a whore" falls outside the bounds of "sound advice".

I'm taking issue with the message, not how it was said.

In any case, there's another issue here: as a society, we ask a lot of women to keep themselves safe, yet there's no big push to get men to stop violating women.

If you can figure out a way to get men to be reasonable and not make stupid judgment calls when drunk, I say make a big push for it. In the meantime, it makes sense for girls to make sound judgment calls, too.

Perhaps in part because the (fallacious) notion that dressing provocatively leads to rape?

So since you apparently don't think that has anything to do with date rape, you would be ok with your young daughter going out scantily, provocatively dressed?

[Guest American Woman]

Back it up or drop the claim.

I will do neither at your command. You, on the other hand, could provide evidence that intoxicated young men don't do anything they wouldn't do while sober, since you seem to think my belief is so totally off as to never be true.

[cybercoma]

I will do neither at your command. You, on the other hand, could provide evidence that intoxicated young men don't do anything they wouldn't do while sober, since you seem to think my belief is so totally off as to never be true.

As you say to others, I'll just go ahead and assume that you can't back up your claim since you won't.

And finding proof for negative aside, let me get right on your request after your ignorant response to mine.

The burden of proof is on you and if you can't be bothered to actually find evidence for your claims, don't expect anyone to take you seriously. Moreover, you should probably read the forum Rules and Guidelines again:

RESEARCH YOUR POST

If you are stating a fact, be prepared to back it up with some official sources (websites, links etc). It is also important to structure your post in a way that everyone can understand. That means writing complete sentences and paragraphs with the appropriate grammar. If for some reason, you enjoy writing long confusing sentences and paragraphs riddled with poor grammar and spelling mistakes, your post, and therefore your opinions, will likely be discarded. Therefore, it is in your best interest to make sure that your post includes sufficient sources and contains a well-researched and well-organized argument.

Your stated fact is that "a scantily clad young girl may be more likely to make an intoxicated date lose his head and control."

Prove it or drop your claim. Is it really so hard for you to change your opinion when there is no evidence to support it?

[Guest American Woman]

As you say to others, I'll just go ahead and assume that you can't back up your claim since you won't.

And finding proof for negative aside, let me get right on your request after your ignorant response to mine.

My response was in no way ignorant. If you insist that provocative dress never is a factor in date rape, I can only assume that you have proof. If you don't, what makes you think your disbelief is any more valid than my belief that it can?

The burden of proof is on you and if you can't be bothered to actually find evidence for your claims, don't expect anyone to take you seriously. Moreover, you should probably read the forum Rules and Guidelines again:

I don't care if you take me seriously or not. Moreover, I'll get right on that right after you do.

Your stated fact is that "a scantily clad young girl may be more likely to make an intoxicated date lose his head and control."

Yep. And I stand by it.

Prove it or drop your claim.

Again, I do not act on your command. Try engaging in civil discussion, because I don't take orders from the likes of you.

[Black Dog]

I'm taking issue with the message, not how it was said.

So you agree that how one dresses has little bearing on whether or not they'll be sexually assaulted, then. Great.

If you can figure out a way to get men to be reasonable and not make stupid judgment calls when drunk, I say make a big push for it. In the meantime, it makes sense for girls to make sound judgment calls, too.

And no one said women shouldn't take sensible precautions.

So since you apparently don't think that has anything to do with date rape, you would be ok with your young daughter going out scantily, provocatively dressed?

Probably not, but that doesn't mean I'd have a rational basis upon which to base my objections.

[jacee]

I'm taking issue with the message, not how it was said.

If you can figure out a way to get men to be reasonable and not make stupid judgment calls when drunk, I say make a big push for it. In the meantime, it makes sense for girls to make sound judgment calls, too.

That's disgusting.

So since you apparently don't think that has anything to do with date rape, you would be ok with your young daughter going out scantily, provocatively dressed?

The real question is are you comfortable if your son gets drunk and rapes a girl, as your statement above suggests?

What the girl is wearing is irrelevant.

Rape is rape. Teaching boys, as you are, that it's okay to rape a girl if they're drunk or she's dressed 'provocatively' is absolutely disgusting.

"Provocative" is in the eye of the beholder.

Pedophiles blame their child victims for being "provocative" too.

Clothing doesn't cause rape.

Rapists cause rape.