Do you feel as we feel?

[betsy]

Utter devastation? If it's utter devastation, I'll be dead. If I'm still alive, it's not utter devastation and I'll get busy trying to decide what to do next.

You know, the kind of devastation that could unexpectedely strike anyone at anytime. Anyway, good for you that you've got plan B set in place. I couldn't say anything against that. Practical approach.

My buoy? What will keep me going when everything seems lost? Just the knowledge that this is the only life I'll ever have.

I guess I should ask someone who actually faced that reality. I did. Inspite of my faith, I'm afraid that I may just be talking with full bravado....just because I haven't experienced much worse than what I've experienced before. Hence my fear that should I be put to the test (ala-Job)...I pray to God not to let me falter but to give me more strength and courage.

What stronger motivation could there be than knowing you only have one chance?

Chances are, some may not see it that way. Some religious people lose their faith when faced with something devastating. Others commit suicide....lose control. We see the news all the time. Murder-suicide is always on the news. It seems it's no longer enough to just commit suicide these days....some have that need to drag others along with them. Mostly members of their family.

I don't know what prompted these people or what belief they may have, or used to have.....but definitely, it's not the Christian thing to do.

I mean, what would a Christian do? Sure, she'd pray and trust in god and all that good stuff, but she can't just sit there waiting for got to solve her problems, she has to do everything she can to carry on too. I'd do exactly the same. The only difference between me and her is that she carries on because she thinks it's part of god's plan and that things will work out eventually, while I carry on because this is the only life I will ever have and giving up isn't an option.

-k

No, Christians can't just sit and wait. God would want us to take a step.

Edited August 5, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

It would be an even better place to stop.

Why? Does it bother you in any way....me talking about my faith?

[Guest American Woman]

What makes you so sure that only the low-wage earners are the only ones abusing the system?

Ummmm. Because someone making enough money to support their children aren't getting welfare. But this wasn't about a low-wage earner abusing the system, was it? - it was about a low wage earner saying God will provide - and not doing anything about his income on that basis. When it's not God providing. Are you getting it yet?

[betsy]

Ummmm. Because someone making enough money to support their children aren't getting welfare. But this wasn't about a low-wage earner abusing the system, was it? - it was about a low wage earner saying God will provide - and not doing anything about his income on that basis. When it's not God providing. Are you getting it yet?

What about those high-earners that cheats on taxes? If this guy's a real practicing Christian....he wouldn't be cheating the government!

If he believes God is providing it, so what? It's his faith that's got you riled up! Admit it. That is persecution, you know. You're ready to turn a blind eye on others who abuse the system in more ways than you could possibly imagine....and you focus on this guy simply because he says, " God will provide. "

How did you even managed to find out how much he makes? His total income?

Perhaps you ought to mind your own business. You walk around with a calculator tabulating how much salary your neighbor makes? You calculate how much budget they should have for certain items?

Golly! You've got too much time on your hands!

I wouldn't be surprised if he's really just trying to get your goat....

Anyway, as I said....it's all about priorities.

Edited August 5, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

deleted

Edited August 5, 2012 by American Woman

[betsy]

Sure we do...listening to the Ozark Mountain Daredevils with a westerly sea at my back under a pitch-black sky ablaze with stars usually does it for me..."if you find it man, you're lucky".

...then comes the dawn. Puts me on cloud nine every time.

You almost sound poetic there, Eyeball. Yeah....I hear you....

Something about the majestic beauty of nature surely evoke such strong emotions! Therapeutic ....inspirational....the beauty that could make your heart sing!

That's known as general revelation. That's how we know God exists. Christians glorify God when we admire His creation!

Edited August 6, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Please excuse me for bringing this up again.

This reminds me of a Christian man I knew a while back who had three children, a fourth on the way, and a low paying job. He wasn't out looking for a better job, but he wasn't worried because he knew "God would provide." I had to bite my tongue to stop myself from pointing out that God isn't providing, the taxpayers are. He should have carried a heavier burden than he was instead of allowing it to be lifted from his shoulders - and onto the taxpayers' shoulders.

On second thought, your "observation" is hardly anything to go by that you could make judgement on this man's character, his integrity, and his role as parent and provider.

First of all, it would be interesting how you managed to get this man to say, "God will provide." I noticed you didn't describe him as a friend, but just someone you know from way back.

How did that confession come about? Did he just blurt it out without any "proddings" from you? How was he feeling, his state of mind, when he said, "God will provide?"

Did he feel you were critiquing him somehow? Did your tone have that note of disapproval over how he was parenting his children? How he was poorly lacking in providing for his family?

Could it be you - unwittingly and unintentionally - made him feel like a failure?

Those three words, "God will provide" could mean so many things.

It can be the "buoy" that I was talking about.....a drowning man clinging desperately to hope.

So yes, those words could mean he hasn't lost hope.

It could also mean he was in pain. What good parent wouldn't want the best for their children?

Saying, "God will provide" does not mean that the person will do nothing but wait for mana to fall from heaven. It means, he trusts in God.

Christians who place their trust in God are helped by God.

That is a belief, and boy a lot of Christians - that includes me - will tell you that He does do some intervention(s)! Yes! Even in the trivial things of daily life - I'd even say, ESPECIALLY in the trivial things of daily living! We say so because we experience Him! Of course I'm not expecting you to believe it - I'm just telling you that's what most born-again had experienced and believe!

Second, do you know the whole story of this man's life? Or is your judgement relying on that single snapshot in time (he's got three children - fourth on the way -with a low-paying job)?

How was his finances before he had children? Did he confide that to you too?

When the first one was born? The second? The third? Could it be that perhaps things were going well then (financially) that having many children was not an issue at all?

He wasn't out looking for a better job but he wasn't worried because he knew "God would provide."

How do you know for sure he wasn't looking for a better job? Perhaps he didn't tell you the many times he'd applied and been rejected. That he secretly feels discouraged....yet he has to put a brave face for the sake of his wife and children.

What are his skills? Perhaps there weren't any jobs available for his skills....or his education....that will pay "better," according to your standard of what's "better."

Perhaps going back to school to improve his chances wasn't feasible at the time. You don't know, unless he was telling you everything. And I mean, everything!

Perhaps telling you, "he wasn't worried," was just plain bravado - a man trying to save face.

It could also be a polite way of telling you he wasn't worried about it, therefore you shouldn't be!

I had to bite my tongue to stop myself from pointing out that God isn't providing, the taxpayers are. He should have carried a heavier burden than he was instead of allowing it to be lifted from his shoulders - and onto the taxpayers' shoulders.

How do you know he didn't make his valuable contribution to the system before you met him? Isn't welfare for anyone who hit hard times? Or it's only for those who don't rely on God to provide?

I don't know how things work there in the US of A....but in Canada, welfare is for anyone who hit hardtimes. That's how it should be, isn't it? It's not only for single moms.

Edited August 6, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

deleted.

Edited August 6, 2012 by betsy

[eyeball]

You almost sound poetic there, Eyeball. Yeah....I hear you....

Something about the majestic beauty of nature surely evoke such strong emotions! Therapeutic ....inspirational....the beauty that could make your heart sing!

That's known as general revelation. That's how we know God exists. Christians glorify God when we admire His creation!

I guess so...

It's when God is smashing the boat with 4 to 5 meter seas in a southeast gale that I crank up the Death-metal tunes.

[bleeding heart]

Thus in that humble acceptance of God's control over our lives (trusting that He always do what He knows is best for us), the heavy burden is lifted off our shoulders, and we have this tranquil peace.

How can atheists be able to feel that way? Can someone explain.

God has made us atheists because it is best for us.

[Guest American Woman]

Please excuse me for bringing this up again.

No, not really. I deleted my first response because your post was so ignorant that I felt like an ignoramus even responding to it. Now you leave me no choice.

On second thought, your "observation" is hardly anything to go by that you could make judgement on this man's character, his integrity, and his role as parent and provider.

First of all, it would be interesting how you managed to get this man to say, "God will provide." I noticed you didn't describe him as a friend, but just someone you know from way back.

How did that confession come about? Did he just blurt it out without any "proddings" from you? How was he feeling, his state of mind, when he said, "God will provide?"

Did he feel you were critiquing him somehow? Did your tone have that note of disapproval over how he was parenting his children? How he was poorly lacking in providing for his family?

Good God. He offered up the information all on his own. To tell the truth, it was TMI in my opinion; more more than I cared to know. His state of mind was quite relaxed. He couldn't provide a roof over their head or food on the table without government help, but he was very peaceful - Because he knew "God would provide." Some people do talk. About themselves. On and on. About their faith, too, in case it's escaped you. Sometimes even when you'd rather they didn't.

Could it be you - unwittingly and unintentionally - made him feel like a failure?

Ummmm. No. Not in the slightest; but you must defend a Christian at all costs, eh? It must have been my fault somehow.

Those three words, "God will provide" could mean so many things.

It can be the "buoy" that I was talking about.....a drowning man clinging desperately to hope.

So yes, those words could mean he hasn't lost hope.

He didn't lose hope, because he knew he would be provided for - but as I've pointed out several times now, it wasn't God. It was the taxpayers.

It could also mean he was in pain. What good parent wouldn't want the best for their children?

Generally parents who want the best for their children don't keep having more as they can't provide for the ones they have without assistance - and/or they are out looking for a higher paying job.

Saying, "God will provide" does not mean that the person will do nothing but wait for mana to fall from heaven. It means, he trusts in God.

As he lives off of the taxpayers, not God's grace.

Christians who place their trust in God are helped by God.

In this instance he was helped by the government; ie: the taxpayers. Are you getting that yet??

That is a belief, and boy a lot of Christians - that includes me - will tell you that He does do some intervention(s)! Yes! Even in the trivial things of daily life - I'd even say, ESPECIALLY in the trivial things of daily living! We say so because we experience Him! Of course I'm not expecting you to believe it - I'm just telling you that's what most born-again had experienced and believe!

Good for you!! But here's a newsflash. Providing food and shelter are not "trivial" things. You are trying so hard to make excuses for him. Tells me a lot about you.

Second, do you know the whole story of this man's life? Or is your judgement relying on that single snapshot in time (he's got three children - fourth on the way -with a low-paying job)?

How was his finances before he had children? Did he confide that to you too?

*sigh* No, I wasn't relying on that single snapshot in time. His situation was the same with the first through the fourth child. Furthermore, I made no "judgement" other than to point out that it wasn't "God" providing, but the taxpayers. That's called a fact.

When the first one was born? The second? The third? Could it be that perhaps things were going well then (financially) that having many children was not an issue at all?

See my response above; and he had them bang-bang-bang-and bang. One right after the other. But here's the thing - people whose financial situation changes usually are out seeking a job that will provide what they used to have. They don't usually look to God - ie: the taxpayers - to support them.

How do you know for sure he wasn't looking for a better job? Perhaps he didn't tell you the many times he'd applied and been rejected. That he secretly feels discouraged....yet he has to put a brave face for the sake of his wife and children.

One. More. Time. I know because he told me. Generally if one is feeling discouraged and rejected and relying on the government, they let people know that they are out there really trying - rather than saying they know "God will provide."

What are his skills? Perhaps there weren't any jobs available for his skills....or his education....that will pay "better," according to your standard of what's "better."

Perhaps going back to school to improve his chances wasn't feasible at the time. You don't know, unless he was telling you everything. And I mean, everything!

Then perhaps he shouldn't have had four children. Ya think??

Perhaps telling you, "he wasn't worried," was just plain bravado - a man trying to save face.

It could also be a polite way of telling you he wasn't worried about it, therefore you shouldn't be!

Why would he think I was worried about it? The only thing worrying me was the fact that it was my tax dollars supporting him and his family.

How do you know he didn't make his valuable contribution to the system before you met him? Isn't welfare for anyone who hit hard times? Or it's only for those who don't rely on God to provide?

I don't know how things work there in the US of A....but in Canada, welfare is for anyone who hit hardtimes. That's how it should be, isn't it? It's not only for single moms.

Try to wrap your head around the reality of it. He hadn't hit "hard times." Welfare in the US of A is for people who don't have a high enough income to provide for their children - they then get government housing and food stamps. The more kids they have, the more government support. Furthermore, many a single mother raises their children without welfare as many other people do not; your comment re: single mothers has nothing to do with this situation or anything that I said.

I know it must eat at your born-again soul to hear the facts - you talk about me having too much time on my hands simply because I listened to a guy I knew talk back in the day - as you come up with this lengthy interrogation rather than see the simple reality of the situation.

[The_Squid]

You're talking about a good person.

Nope. I am talking about Christians. Don't twist my words thanks.

Give your own "testimony" how having no-God ( no one to turn to, nothing to live for ) could possibly have a tranquil peaceful feeling.

No one to turn to? Nothing to love for? This makes me laugh at the sheer arrogance of it. Thanks.

[bleeding heart]

No one to turn to? Nothing to love for? This makes me laugh at the sheer arrogance of it. Thanks.

I know, the arrogance is unbelievable.

[betsy]

No, not really. I deleted my first response because your post was so ignorant that I felt like an ignoramus even responding to it. Now you leave me no choice.

Good God. He offered up the information all on his own. To tell the truth, it was TMI in my opinion; more more than I cared to know. His state of mind was quite relaxed. He couldn't provide a roof over their head or food on the table without government help, but he was very peaceful - Because he knew "God would provide." Some people do talk. About themselves. On and on. About their faith, too, in case it's escaped you. Sometimes even when you'd rather they didn't.

Ummmm. No. Not in the slightest; but you must defend a Christian at all costs, eh? It must have been my fault somehow.

He didn't lose hope, because he knew he would be provided for - but as I've pointed out several times now, it wasn't God. It was the taxpayers.

Generally parents who want the best for their children don't keep having more as they can't provide for the ones they have without assistance - and/or they are out looking for a higher paying job.

As he lives off of the taxpayers, not God's grace.

In this instance he was helped by the government; ie: the taxpayers. Are you getting that yet??

Good for you!! But here's a newsflash. Providing food and shelter are not "trivial" things. You are trying so hard to make excuses for him. Tells me a lot about you.

*sigh* No, I wasn't relying on that single snapshot in time. His situation was the same with the first through the fourth child. Furthermore, I made no "judgement" other than to point out that it wasn't "God" providing, but the taxpayers. That's called a fact.

See my response above; and he had them bang-bang-bang-and bang. One right after the other. But here's the thing - people whose financial situation changes usually are out seeking a job that will provide what they used to have. They don't usually look to God - ie: the taxpayers - to support them.

One. More. Time. I know because he told me. Generally if one is feeling discouraged and rejected and relying on the government, they let people know that they are out there really trying - rather than saying they know "God will provide."

Then perhaps he shouldn't have had four children. Ya think??

Why would he think I was worried about it? The only thing worrying me was the fact that it was my tax dollars supporting him and his family.

Try to wrap your head around the reality of it. He hadn't hit "hard times." Welfare in the US of A is for people who don't have a high enough income to provide for their children - they then get government housing and food stamps. The more kids they have, the more government support. Furthermore, many a single mother raises their children without welfare as many other people do not; your comment re: single mothers has nothing to do with this situation or anything that I said.

I know it must eat at your born-again soul to hear the facts - you talk about me having too much time on my hands simply because I listened to a guy I knew talk back in the day - as you come up with this lengthy interrogation rather than see the simple reality of the situation.

I'm not defending him just because he is a Christian. A lot of people find themselves in that kind of situation regardless of their gender, their race or belief. He could've just as easily shrugged and said, "Well I tried but there's nothing out there..." and to him that could've been enough to justify collecting welfare. And chances are, he might not even think there's anything wrong with it since a lot of people he knows are doing the same thing.

Yeah I heard about your food stamps....I watch Judge Judy a lot of times. But I don't know the details of your laws about it. A lot of single moms in that show that she castigated for abusing the system....hence I guess my comment came from that.

When I was new in Canada, some well-meaning women from Quebec tried to "help" me with their advice. We were in a laundromat (they were teaching me how to use the machine). They adviced me to try to have children so I can get money from the government. The more children I have....the more monetary support I'll get. Some don't really think there's anything wrong about it....maybe they grew up seeing the adults around them thinking and doing the same thing. If it's there, go for it....maybe that's how some justify it.

We have been griping about our abused system here too. Whether you and I like it or not, there are indeed those who will abuse the system. The system will have to be changed - to improve it - so there will be far less abuse. I doubt we can eliminate abuse entirely.

However,this man's belief played into this since your main source of irritation is the fact that this man had expressed his faith by saying, "God will provide."

If he left that phrase out, and if he didn't mention anything about his faith....would you have made such a big deal about his having 4 children and collecting food stamps because he couldn't make both ends meet? Would you be talking about him on this board?

If he was taking, "God will provide," in the very literal sense (which I think you want to absolutely portray)....then, what's he doing working at all?

If he thinks welfare and food stamps are the provisions coming from God....maybe he could also wrangle and get disability to go with it? I know about your disability - from Judge Judy.

Anyway, I find it strange that the guy would volunteer a lot of information....it's almost like he couldn't stop himself from talking. Like a dam that broke, everything came spilling out. Even you acknowledge it was too much information. He could've been under a lot of stress.

"God will provide," can have different meanings.....as explained above.

So now you say:

Try to wrap your head around the reality of it. He hadn't hit "hard times." Welfare in the US of A is for people who don't have a high enough income to provide for their children - they then get government housing and food stamps.

<scratches head>

So what were you on about this with my reply to Kimmy?

Why? Because she realizes what she feels is a hardship at the time isn't a hardship in comparison to the hardships so many in the world face?

How can you say, "he hasn't hit hard times" and on the same sentence you say, "Welfare in the US of A is for people who don't have a high enough income to provide for their children - they then get government housing and food stamps."

Aren't you saying the situation of this man cannot be called "hard times" in your definition? Why is that? Whose "hard times" are you comparing him with? Did he tell you that?

At least Kimmy explained the way she saw her situation....and I went along with her own assessment.

To me, having less food, people going hungry.....that's hard times!

I think like many others, you're angry with the system because you can see it getting abused. I am the same way.

But I don't think it is for me to judge who deserves help and who does not (since I don't know all the details about a person(s) - even if they say otherwise). There are government staff who deals with the details to qualify them.

Edited August 6, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

Would you like me to write a book about it, betsy?

[cybercoma]

Would you like me to write a book about it, betsy?

She would simply ignore what you write in that book anyway.

[Jiblethead]

eternal life does not exist, it is fabricated to make us feel better about death. 'tranquil peace' is simply a state of mind anyone can achieve, religious or not. religion just makes it easier for the masses, an opiate if you will

[freekundli]

I was being sarcastic.

That is good one.