Ontario Teachers Strike

Keepitsimple · August 4, 2012

I've heard teachers talk (in jest) about how they'd rather be against Hudak. Because he'd draw a line in the sand against education as a whole and they'd have more backing from the public.

McGuinty is actually being really strategic. Nothing he is doing targets classroom programming, only teacher compensation. He's claiming that they need to get with the economic times but, the reality is that teachers are taking a compensation cut to fund all day kindergarten and maintain lower class sizes.

Actually, they are not taking a cut. No teacher will have their salary cut. Sick days reduced. That's not a cut. The problem lies largely in the grid....where just by taking courses, a teacher moves their way up the salary grid. Senority also gets you up the grid. In the real world, salaries are driven my supply and demand. If you have a special skill or competence that is hard to find, you can make more money because you are in demand. We have a situation with teachers where there are thousands of young, capable, enthusiastic teachers who cannot get a job because the dinosaurs are clogging up the fulltime and supply teaching positions. Freeze the grid for older teachers. Do away with the existing grid for new teachers. Create a buy-out program for older teachers. Replace them with new teachers. Dumping a $90K salary in favour of a $45K salary gives us the money for a buy-out - and a much more controllable salary going forward. The young teachers will inject life into the system and modernize teaching. Probably a 10 year plan that would transform our education system. Everyone still gets ttheir two months off and their cozy pension. And who else benefits? Our kids - BIG TIME. Just fix it.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Keepitsimple

Topaz · August 4, 2012

So you feel that a new teacher should be frozen at 45k/year while other teachers get paid 90k/year?

The new teacher who had their tuition doubled by Mike Harris and is still paying off debt?

If anything, we need to roll back wage gains and allow new teachers to continue moving up, IMO.

You or I didn't created this debt, but it has to be you and I to help get it paid off so, YOU, if you work for the province, you can recoup what you lost during this time when time are better. I'm not saying you shouldn't get an increase, I'm saying just not right now. Is that too much to ask? I know private companies, where workers have given up wages and benefits to keep the company going and had it return to them later down the road.

MiddleClassCentrist · August 9, 2012

Actually, they are not taking a cut. No teacher will have their salary cut. Sick days reduced. That's not a cut. The problem lies largely in the grid....where just by taking courses, a teacher moves their way up the salary grid. Senority also gets you up the grid. In the real world, salaries are driven my supply and demand. If you have a special skill or competence that is hard to find, you can make more money because you are in demand. We have a situation with teachers where there are thousands of young, capable, enthusiastic teachers who cannot get a job because the dinosaurs are clogging up the fulltime and supply teaching positions. Freeze the grid for older teachers. Do away with the existing grid for new teachers. Create a buy-out program for older teachers. Replace them with new teachers. Dumping a $90K salary in favour of a $45K salary gives us the money for a buy-out - and a much more controllable salary going forward. The young teachers will inject life into the system and modernize teaching. Probably a 10 year plan that would transform our education system. Everyone still gets ttheir two months off and their cozy pension. And who else benefits? Our kids - BIG TIME. Just fix it.

I know enough about these issues being related to teachers. Half of the problem is that the majority of people don't actually understand why the system is the way it is or how it works.

Older teachers are already frozen on the grid. Top pay is achieved after 13 years in most boards.

Secondary teachers union proposed a buyout program, it was shot down by McGuinty's extreme hard line of our way or the highway, no exceptions or alternatives.

The entire idea of a grid is to slow down the cost of a teacher by starting them ridiculously low. 5 years of education gets you 45k starting with decent credentials. I know people with half completed college diplomas that make 65k/year working as secretaries...

2 months off -> My mother is a bank teller and gets 5 weeks, I'm in IT and I get 6. We get to choose when we take vacation and what we use the vacation days for. I'm sure the majority of teachers would be willing to take less vacation time if it were more flexible.

Pension -> Teachers pay 12% of their annual salary into their pension (5k-12k a year) most people I know at my age (Mid 20's) do absolutely nothing for retirement but will complain about the pension they dont' receive because they spent all of the money., The Government matches the teacher's contribution. Pension is only having difficulty because of low interest rates used to evaluate it, if you used the last 10 years of real return instead of the bond rate, there is no problem.

The MSM has been doing a hackjob of reporting this issue to conspiracy theory creating levels. Teacher's aren't making any demands for raises or asking for more sick days. They are trying to protect what they have through collective bargaining, a process that this government has been showing absolute contempt of. The teacher's union has been trying to negotiate concessions but, the government just wants to force the deal they created without budging.

Getting a contract negotiated before one ends is nearly unheard of in any situation. Yet the MSM has raised this spectre of teachers striking on day 1.

Edited August 9, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

MiddleClassCentrist · August 9, 2012

You or I didn't created this debt, but it has to be you and I to help get it paid off so, YOU, if you work for the province, you can recoup what you lost during this time when time are better. I'm not saying you shouldn't get an increase, I'm saying just not right now. Is that too much to ask? I know private companies, where workers have given up wages and benefits to keep the company going and had it return to them later down the road.

Fair enough, but these policies aren't to reduce the deficit or pay it down.

It is to pay for all day kindergarten and other Dalton initiatives.

MiddleClassCentrist · August 9, 2012

He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think talking tough with the teachers is something a majority of Canadians support.

But at the same time he's alienating his base. As long as Hudak keeps to the right of him here(which he's successfully doing), I doubt he'll pick up any support from the Centre-Right but he stands to lose a lot from the Centre-Left.

Where does the Working Unions . . . I MEAN . . . Working Families Coalition throw their support behind if Dalton legislates a Pay Freeze.

With all of the north american conservative propaganda machines (CATO, C.D. Howe Institute, Fraser, Canadian Citizens' Coalition, etc, etc, etc.) spewing propaganda and studies to help the wealthy retain their control and get richer, picking on the smaller amount of labour supporting organizations seems a bit silly.

TheNewTeddy · August 9, 2012

I have one more semester then I will be a public school teacher. You make an ignorant remark so you must be jealous. Public schools are changing. I want to be part of that change and have kids exposed to my views of social justice and environmental issues.

If you are attempting to "teach" your "students" your "values" then you are an awful teacher.

I won't say "no offence" because I intend full offence.

socialist · August 9, 2012

If you are attempting to "teach" your "students" your "values" then you are an awful teacher.

I won't say "no offence" because I intend full offence.

you really don't know that much so i could care less what you think. YOU ARE UNIMPORTANT.

CPCFTW · August 10, 2012

I know enough about these issues being related to teachers. Half of the problem is that the majority of people don't actually understand why the system is the way it is or how it works.

Older teachers are already frozen on the grid. Top pay is achieved after 13 years in most boards.

Secondary teachers union proposed a buyout program, it was shot down by McGuinty's extreme hard line of our way or the highway, no exceptions or alternatives.

The entire idea of a grid is to slow down the cost of a teacher by starting them ridiculously low. 5 years of education gets you 45k starting with decent credentials. I know people with half completed college diplomas that make 65k/year working as secretaries...

45k + 2 months vacation + defined benefit pension + guaranteed raises + job security + sick days is not ridiculously low for someone who may have a 3 yr arts degree and 1 yr at teacher's college. In fact, it's not really low for an undergrad of any field, regardless of the people you know with half completed college diplomas.. :rolleyes:

2 months off -> My mother is a bank teller and gets 5 weeks, I'm in IT and I get 6. We get to choose when we take vacation and what we use the vacation days for. I'm sure the majority of teachers would be willing to take less vacation time if it were more flexible.

No one cares what you and your mother get. Your mother has probably been a bank teller for decades to get 5 weeks vacation. Most people in the financial services industry start off with 10 to 15 days vacation. If you want any credibility, you shouldn't be so obviously dishonest. Anyone who lives in the real world knows that 2 months vacation (or even 5-6 weeks) is not a normal starting benefit. You also forgot to mention the PD days, sick days, etc.

Pension -> Teachers pay 12% of their annual salary into their pension (5k-12k a year) most people I know at my age (Mid 20's) do absolutely nothing for retirement but will complain about the pension they dont' receive because they spent all of the money., The Government matches the teacher's contribution. Pension is only having difficulty because of low interest rates used to evaluate it, if you used the last 10 years of real return instead of the bond rate, there is no problem.

It's funny to see you try to paint this as a bad thing for teachers. Most people have to contribute 18% of their incomes to an RRSP for decades and hope that the market or their financial advisers don't screw them out of a comfortable retirement. Teachers get a taxpayer guaranteed quality of life upon retirement.

The MSM has been doing a hackjob of reporting this issue to conspiracy theory creating levels. Teacher's aren't making any demands for raises or asking for more sick days. They are trying to protect what they have through collective bargaining, a process that this government has been showing absolute contempt of. The teacher's union has been trying to negotiate concessions but, the government just wants to force the deal they created without budging.
Getting a contract negotiated before one ends is nearly unheard of in any situation. Yet the MSM has raised this spectre of teachers striking on day 1.

The "MSM" is reporting the facts... you're buying into union propaganda. You offer nothing but anecdotes about your mother and people with half completed college diplomas.

TheNewTeddy · August 10, 2012

you really don't know that much so i could care less what you think. YOU ARE UNIMPORTANT.

That's nice.

But if you want to win any strike, you'll need to appeal to the public. This was done in the 70's and gained support, but strikes in the past decade have tended to turn the public away, and only harms the cause of labour and Labour.

MiddleClassCentrist · August 10, 2012

45k + 2 months vacation + defined benefit pension + guaranteed raises + job security + sick days is not ridiculously low for someone who may[Correction: at absolute MINIMUM has] have a 3 yr arts degree and 1 yr at teacher's college [attaining a minimum of 70% or higher, reality is A- average required to get in to Teacher's college]. In fact, it's not really low for an undergrad of any field [Who does not have additional professional certification], regardless of the people you know with half completed college diplomas..

You start off being dishonest, so I guess it's a good setup for the rest of your comments.

No one cares what you and your mother get. Your mother has probably been a bank teller for decades to get 5 weeks vacation.

lol, unless I was a teacher then all of a sudden you'd care. I just happened to like my teachers and know quite a few to know that their job is not all sunshine and rainbows like some people paint it.

Most people in the financial services industry start off with 10 to 15 days vacation. If you want any credibility, you shouldn't be so obviously dishonest. Anyone who lives in the real world knows that 2 months vacation (or even 5-6 weeks) 1 is not a normal starting benefit. You also forgot to mention the 2 - PD days, sick days, etc.

1 - Ok, but how would you implement a system where teachers worked up to 6 weeks a year based on a static school year? I'd like to hear that one.

2 - You are being dishonest here, PD days included into time off? Only in conservatopia. Bay street banksters get like the entire year off if PD days, where teachers have to sit through meetings, seminars, presentations and workshops all day, counts as vacation.

It's funny to see you try to paint this as a bad thing for teachers. Most people have to contribute 18% of their incomes to an RRSP for decades and hope that the market or their financial advisers don't screw them out of a comfortable retirement. Teachers get a taxpayer guaranteed quality of life upon retirement.

Most people DON'T... until it's too late. I'm not painting the teacher pension as a bad thing. Just that it's easy to criticize when you spend your money on big screen TV's and new cars and living close to downtown instead of saving for retirement(most of the people my age do). They then look to what someone else has later in life and completely disregard the fact that the individual did infact contribute a large portion of income overtime, starting from their date of hire (23-25yrs old if it is their first career).

The "MSM" is reporting the facts... you're buying into union propaganda. You offer nothing but anecdotes about your mother and people with half completed college diplomas.

MSM is not reporting the facts. IT is reporting McGuinty's claims. You just happen to like the claims. Edited August 10, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

westguy · August 10, 2012

if the Liberals don't give teachers what we deserve then there will be a strike. we are tired of governments who have no clue what we have to go through. mcguinty better quickly realize how much support the teachers in ontario gave him in this last election. thank goodness we have awesome teacher unions in this province looking out for teachers and students. i'm disgusted.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/start-of-ontarios-school-year-in-jeopardy-if-labour-talks-stall/article4449756/

what you go thru??? You go thru approx. 3 months of vacation plus immense benfits and work about 25hr/wk. That is exacylt what motivates people to become teachers, ie the soft touch and easy secure life

TheNewTeddy · August 10, 2012

what you go thru??? You go thru approx. 3 months of vacation plus immense benfits and work about 25hr/wk. That is exacylt what motivates people to become teachers, ie the soft touch and easy secure life

This is what needs to be opposed if you want to win the strike.

You guys (Teachers) need to sit down and work out how long, in hours, each day, you "work". That includes in-class time, and prep time. Recesses and Lunch are "breaks" so don't disinclude them, as other "workers" get the same breaks.

I'm going to work under the assumption that teachers do get a full 3 months off, and work for 9 months.

You gotta sit down and figure out how many hours a workday you actually work. Again, include marking tests, etc.

Working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for 52 weeks, is 2080 hours. Teachers, according to the above estimate, work 39 weeks. That means if you work more than 10 hours and 45 minutes a day, then you work MORE than the average worker, despite your long vacation time.

So sit down with a calculator and work it out.

If you find you only work 9 hours a day on average, then do not use this as part of your strike argument.

However, if you find that on average you work 11 hours a day in a 5 day workweek (and I suspect this would be the case) then use that as part of your argument. Make a big sign.

"THINK TEACHERS GET TOO MUCH TIME OFF?"

with a graphic showing the "average worker" working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and getting 2 weeks off, with a big equals sign, showing how many hours they've worked in the year.

Below that (or beside that) do the same for teachers, and have your number, your BIGGER number, in a big bold red font.

Frankly, I don't like strikers, but in the past 5 years especially, you guys (strikers of all sort) have done such a god awful job getting your message out, I feel compelled to help, even if I dislike what you are doing.

edit - also, turns out this is my 666th post. Almost makes sense that my help of Labour Unions would be my "devil post"

Edited August 10, 2012 by TheNewTeddy

MiddleClassCentrist · August 11, 2012

edit - also, turns out this is my 666th post. Almost makes sense that my help of Labour Unions would be my "devil post"

There had been a good article about how teacher unions have a public relations problem.

What they should be doing is showing what they actually do. Majority of teachers do other things than teach, a select few who make them look bad don't. They coach mutiple teams or run multiple clubs (Depending of whether they are an athletic teacher or not), all optional and completely ignored when looking at compensation.

Also, Ontario ranks among the highest in the world for quality of education.

"The education we provide is among the best in the World. Why is McGuinty trying to target people who are doing their job well?"

Edited August 11, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

TheNewTeddy · August 12, 2012

Rather than do any of this it seems teachers are more interested in being insulting and getting their back up.

socialist · August 12, 2012

Rather than do any of this it seems teachers are more interested in being insulting and getting their back up.

Ontario has one of the best public education systems in the world and you say something silly like that. teachers have a right to demand more.

Shady · August 12, 2012

Ontario has one of the best public education systems in the world

What criteria do you base that on?

Smallc · August 12, 2012

I'm pretty sure that's actually not far off, based on education rankings.

TheNewTeddy · August 12, 2012

Ontario has one of the best public education systems in the world and you say something silly like that. teachers have a right to demand more.

Demanding more and insulting people are not one in the same. If you don't know this you need to go back to school.

MiddleClassCentrist · August 12, 2012

Ontario has one of the best public education systems in the world and you say something silly like that. teachers have a right to demand more.

Everyone has a right to demand more but, TNT was just pointing out that there are better ways of doing it.

I believe teachers would be happy to get what they currently have but, that is not what McGuinty is doing. He is clawing back previous agreements at the expense of younger teachers who have a higher amount of student debt thanks to Mike Harris increasing tuition...

Wild Bill · August 12, 2012

I would love to see a system where a student could just show up, pay a reasonable fee and write a final exam. If he passed it, he got his certificate!

This would free up all kinds of room for those students who need class time to accomplish the same end and it would save the students who don't need it from becoming unmotivated out of boredom.

socialist · August 12, 2012

I would love to see a system where a student could just show up, pay a reasonable fee and write a final exam. If he passed it, he got his certificate!

This would free up all kinds of room for those students who need class time to accomplish the same end and it would save the students who don't need it from becoming unmotivated out of boredom.

that is one of the worst ideas i've ever heard. teachers and kids need to be in the classroom.

Wild Bill · August 12, 2012

that is one of the worst ideas i've ever heard. teachers and kids need to be in the classroom.

Why? I have never yet known a very bright student who found his classroom time anything but boring.

School is aimed at the middle and bottom of the Bell curve. Bright students are ignored or more often, resented.

TheNewTeddy · August 12, 2012

Why? I have never yet known a very bright student who found his classroom time anything but boring.

School is aimed at the middle and bottom of the Bell curve. Bright students are ignored or more often, resented.

I was in a gifted program for a year, because I was "bright". Long story short, I never really got any support. The school would just note how they love to have the top math student in grade 6 in the province (PEI) but all I got was bored. Frankly, throughout all of Jr. High, high school, and 3 years of university I'd sit and doodle for the entire class, and still pass cause I was "smart"

I learned that you can get by in life without any effort. I learned that in my formative years and now I have an entire team of shrinks trying to reverse that damage.

The "education system" did me far more harm than good.

edit

I should note that in Grade 5 I was in the gifted program, and at that point, I left Ontario for PEI, where in Grade 6 I scored #1 in math on PEI in standardized testing. PEI's education system is what failed me, but Ontario's failure to see that I knew my stuff until Grade 5 is also part of the problem.

double edit

I should also note that I was always the "Smartest in the class" in every class I was ever in; except, in the gifted school, where I was "the dumb one".

Just in case anyone thinks I'm trying to claim I'm some kinda of mensa genius. I'm officially one step below mensa (according to my IQ test when I was in grade 3) mensa is top 1%, I was told I am top 2%

Edited August 12, 2012 by TheNewTeddy

Wild Bill · August 12, 2012

I was in a gifted program for a year, because I was "bright". Long story short, I never really got any support. The school would just note how they love to have the top math student in grade 6 in the province (PEI) but all I got was bored. Frankly, throughout all of Jr. High, high school, and 3 years of university I'd sit and doodle for the entire class, and still pass cause I was "smart"

Teddy, if I had a nickel for every story I've heard like yours I would have a solid gold computer!

This really deserves a thread of its own. It's a topic we have touched on a few times in the past but never really chewed over thoroughly.

You know, I have never met a gifted person yet who thought the school system helped him. I have met average people who did well scholastically by dint of hard work and effort but as far as those just naturally very bright, virtually all have stories like yours.

MiddleClassCentrist · August 13, 2012

You know, I have never met a gifted person yet who thought the school system helped him. I have met average people who did well scholastically by dint of hard work and effort but as far as those just naturally very bright, virtually all have stories like yours.

I have. One who was taught to learn for himself and not wait for others to hold his hand. One who didn't get lazy and just stop working because it was easy, who asked for more material.

Gifted doesn't mean they aren't lazy

This guy was writing algorithms in High School that made my university work look bad! All because he learned how to learn for himself and to ask for/seek out more information on his own using school resources.

That being said, most of the gifted people I knew wasted their lives (so far) for one reason or another. I always thought they'd be doctors or contribute something to society... Funny things that you think of as a kid.

Edited August 13, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist