Feeling bad about crime and tragedy

[TheNewTeddy]

So, two big "tragedies" have happened recently. The shootings in Toronto, and the shootings in Denver. While I do acknowledge that both are terrible, but I can't seem to "connect"

See, I don't go to block parties. I never go to the movies on opening day.

But, I have turned on my cell phone cam inside a McDonalds.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1228500--toronto-cyborg-steve-mann-says-he-was-assaulted-in-paris-mcdonald-s

Hearing that in France you can be assaulted for that... well now that angers me.

If you were to ask me what news story upset me the most, I'd say that one.

Because I can't relate to the victims in the first two instances. They are doing things I never do, would never do.

...am I a bad person?

Edited July 23, 2012 by TheNewTeddy

[Peter F]

So, two big "tragedies" have happened recently. The shootings in Toronto, and the shootings in Denver. While I do acknowledge that both are terrible, but I can't seem to "connect"

See, I don't go to block parties. I never go to the movies on opening day.

...

Because I can't relate to the victims in the first two instances. They are doing things I never do, would never do.

...am I a bad person?

It seems to me kinda odd that you're alleged disconnect occurs because the movie was on opening day as opposed to any other day at the movies. Or that it was a block party and not some picnic/backyard BBQ.

[TheNewTeddy]

I go to 1 movie a year, and I never go to picnics or BBQs

[bleeding heart]

I doubt very much you're a bad person, but I don't think i quite understand your point.

On the other hand, murderous atrocities are (globally, anyway) a continual occurrence, and we can't always be slumped in sorrow.

Edited July 22, 2012 by bleeding heart

[kimmy]

I also have a hard time getting on board the grief bandwagon that seems to always follow in the wake of these "big news" tragedies.

Yes, it's extremely tragic that 12 people who went out to enjoy a movie Friday were senselessly murdered.

But it would not be a surprise if 12 people or more were murdered in the United States yesterday as well. The statistics say that would actually be a slow day for homicide in the United States. So why are the ones killed on Friday more sympathetic than the ones killed on Saturday?

As for what news stories upset me most, few have infuriated me more than the RCMP's attempted cover-up of the Robert Dziekanski incident. That a guy was accidentally killed while being detained by the police? Stuff happens. That it turns out that the guy with the tazer was treating it like an arcade game? One bad cop. That they had decided they were going to tazer him before they even got to the scene? Four bad cops. That the whole organization tried to keep all of this a secret? That they willfully misrepresented the facts? That they tried to deceive the public? That they tried to suppress the video? That they lied about all of this? That they tried to hide evidence from the Braidwood inquiry? That they lied right to Judge Braidwood's face? That they would have gotten away with all of this if a private citizen with a cell-phone hadn't filmed it? Utterly beyond belief.

And they'll keep doing it, too.

I don't think any news item has upset me more than discovering that our most trusted institution is completely untrustworthy.

-k

[bleeding heart]

As for what news stories upset me most, few have infuriated me more than the RCMP's attempted cover-up of the Robert Dziekanski incident. That a guy was accidentally killed while being detained by the police? Stuff happens. That it turns out that the guy with the tazer was treating it like an arcade game? One bad cop. That they had decided they were going to tazer him before they even got to the scene? Four bad cops. That the whole organization tried to keep all of this a secret? That they willfully misrepresented the facts? That they tried to deceive the public? That they tried to suppress the video? That they lied about all of this? That they tried to hide evidence from the Braidwood inquiry? That they lied right to Judge Braidwood's face? That they would have gotten away with all of this if a private citizen with a cell-phone hadn't filmed it? Utterly beyond belief.

And they'll keep doing it, too.

I don't think any news item has upset me more than discovering that our most trusted institution is completely untrustworthy.

-k

I hear you.

Even my wife, who would defend the police to a fault in nearly every incident, has lately become disillusioned and sickened, and now is practically spitting at them.

There appears to be some sort of culture of extreme entitlement among what has long been a cherished Canadian institution. And the defenders of the Faith are lately becoming more plaintive and tepid in their apologetics (that's my impression, anyway).

[kimmy]

Even my wife, who would defend the police to a fault in nearly every incident, has lately become disillusioned and sickened, and now is practically spitting at them.

I used to be just like that. Every allegation of misconduct, I figured "there's more to the story" or "the police wouldn't do that" or "it's a lowlife making up stories to try and get money" or so on. Probably if I looked back through my posting history on this forum, I could find pro-police messages that I wrote that I would look back on and think "geez, was I ever a sucker."

I was emotionally invested in the idea that the police are the wonderful people we learned about in school. And I'm sure that many of them are... but clearly some are not... and clearly the organization as a whole will do its darnedest to protect those bad apples. As a result I just can't trust them like I used to.

I'm disillusioned, to say the least.

-k

[bleeding heart]

I used to be just like that. Every allegation of misconduct, I figured "there's more to the story" or "the police wouldn't do that" or "it's a lowlife making up stories to try and get money" or so on. Probably if I looked back through my posting history on this forum, I could find pro-police messages that I wrote that I would look back on and think "geez, was I ever a sucker."

We've all been there. (Well...except for those who would rather be punched in the face than ever admit to their own occasional silliness on forums like this one.)

I was emotionally invested in the idea that the police are the wonderful people we learned about in school. And I'm sure that many of them are... but clearly some are not... and clearly the organization as a whole will do its darnedest to protect those bad apples. As a result I just can't trust them like I used to.

Just so. Obviously there are plenty of excellent police officers. But now that I view the problems as actually institutional, I find it pretty distressing at times. I have little doubt that lots of individual officers would agree.

Edited July 22, 2012 by bleeding heart

[blueblood]

We've all been there. (Well...except for those who would rather be punched in the face than ever admit to their own occasional silliness on forums like this one.)

Just so. Obviously there are plenty of excellent police officers. But now that I view the problems as actually institutional, I find it pretty distressing at times. I have little doubt that lots of individual officers would agree.

It is a bit of a problem, and there's been a push by the new commissioner to make it easier to fire people. I'm pretty sure that those in any organization don't want people wrecking it for each other, given the complexity of the process used to can someone in a fed. Govt position, it's easier to bury that person in a shitty job and never hear from them again. The cost it is to get rid of some of these people dictates that it's far easier to do nothing and defend the brand.

One also must realize that some aspects of police work often aren't pretty and the bad guy puts up a fight or is resisting and he has to be restrained. Sometimes it doesn't look good.

[eyeball]

There appears to be some sort of culture of extreme entitlement among what has long been a cherished Canadian institution. And the defenders of the Faith are lately becoming more plaintive and tepid in their apologetics (that's my impression, anyway).

These are not mutually exclusive developments - they cause, effect and feed-back more of the same off one another all the time.

[bleeding heart]

One also must realize that some aspects of police work often aren't pretty and the bad guy puts up a fight or is resisting and he has to be restrained. Sometimes it doesn't look good.

Yes, that's indeed the case. When force is needed to detain someone, it gets rough.

But (and I understand you're not disputing the unsavoury facts) we're talking specifically of totally unwarranted behaviours--coupled with coverups, not incidentally--and Kimmy and I were both referring, in fact, to the type of situation where we say, "Well, the police have a side to this story as well"...until the information comes out, and comes out, and comes out. Until we can't justify it anymore.

A couple of incidents were specifically named...incidents where the authorities are criminally violent ...and then protected.

Edited July 22, 2012 by bleeding heart

[blueblood]

Yes, that's indeed the case. When force is needed to detain someone, it gets rough.

But (and I understand you're not disputing the unsavoury facts) we're talking specifically of totally unwarranted behaviours--coupled with coverups, not incidentally--and Kimmy and I were both referring, in fact, to the type of situation where we say, "Well, the police have a side to this story as well"...until the information comes out, and comes out, and comes out. Until we can't justify it anymore.

A couple of incidents were specifically named...incidents where the authorities are criminally violent ...and then protected.

It all comes down to articulation of the events. What some people deem as violent and excessive, others view it as normal procedure. From what I got out of how using a taser goes, it's if buddy has something in his hand or there is a physical mismatch. Using it another x amount of times on the ground is where it looks bad...

[bleeding heart]

It all comes down to articulation of the events. What some people deem as violent and excessive, others view it as normal procedure. From what I got out of how using a taser goes, it's if buddy has something in his hand or there is a physical mismatch. Using it another x amount of times on the ground is where it looks bad...

Or officers kicking people in the face. Not too serve-y and protect-y.

[bush_cheney2004]

Or officers kicking people in the face. Not too serve-y and protect-y.

Is there a better place to kick them?

[Argus]

I was invested with the story of all those people murdered in the theatre because I go to theatres. It was of considerably more interest to me than 50 people shot or blown up in Iraq (yawn) or Syria(ho hum). I think we become inured to the kind of international violence which we see so much of and which we really can't, coming from peaceful societies, really related to.

The Macdonald's story bothered me, but not that much. It was obviously a couple of low rent morons - which I expect to find at MacDonalds, to be honest.

[Argus]

I was emotionally invested in the idea that the police are the wonderful people we learned about in school. And I'm sure that many of them are... but clearly some are not... and clearly the organization as a whole will do its darnedest to protect those bad apples. As a result I just can't trust them like I used to.

I'm disillusioned, to say the least.

-k

I used to be the same. For me, the first big disillusion came during the APEC conference in Vancouver 15 years ago. What outraged me was that police were arresting people they knew hadn't broken any laws. Police were ignoring people's civil rights to protest, even arresting students on the front lawns of their dorms because they were holding up small, hand written paper signs (Chretien had assured the dictators of Asia there would be no protests). The police excuse at the time, if I recall was, "Oh, it was for safety reasons, in case they were concealing weapons." What utter bullshit. They were tiny signs! Someone had flown a Taiwan flag from his own flagpole, and the police ripped it down. A number of female student protestors, not the violent kind, just people standing around trying to hold up little signs, were arrested and strip searched (that seems to be a favorite of police for intimidating people, especially young attractive, female people).

The thing was, it wasn't their idea. They were just following orders. And it didn't bother them one bit that those orders were illegal, or that they had to break the law to fulfil them. No one was charged with breaking the law, and to my knowledge, no one was punished for doing anything wrong.

Flash forward to Toronto last year. Same deal. The police there, not the RCMP this time, cheerfully, even eagerly beat innocent people up, arrested people without any real charge, falsified documents and arrest sheets, and locked people in cages. Just following orders. With the usual strip searching of young women, of course. One of the perks of the job, I guess. And so far no one has been punished, and likely no one will. That most especially includes the morons in charge, including Toronto's incompetent police chief.

There have been many smaller incidents, like the way the RCMP obediently tried to have the former head of the Business Development Bank of Canada arrested because he was embarrassing Chretien, the incident you posted, and the one with the tasering, as well, which demonstrate the full willingness of police officers to break any law in the books as long as their superiors tell them to, and their general low level of intelligence and sophistication. "Duh, my sergeant said it was okay to beat people up so it must be okay". Too many police seem to be swaggering, loud mouthed cretins who ought to be pushing brooms somewhere, and who have this vaunted sense of self-importance that causes them be violently outraged the moment anyone fails to leap to obey their every snarled instruction. I have thus gone from being, as you were, a big defender of police, to not believing a word a cop says without supporting proof.

I also think it's absolutely ludicrous we're paying these lowbrow cretins $100k a year. That sure blows the theory that paying top dollar gets top people, doesn't it? Cut their salary in half and we'd save a pile of money. I doubt we'd get a poorer quality recruit. I doubt that's possible.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Argus

[Guest Manny]

There really is an "us and them" kind of mentality sometimes it seems, in the relationship between police and the general public. Some of them treat everyone as though they were a criminal.

But let's not forget how very hard their job is. They deal with the lowest of society, every single day. They see the wife beaters, child abusers, muggers and rapists. That is their primary customer. In other words they see things we don't even want to know about, and that has to have some kind of effect on a person. You have to have ways to deal with it psychologically. Small wonder they view everyone with suspicion.

Also again let;s not forget the effect of the media. We always hear about the things that go wrong. We rarely hear about the thousands upon thousands of cases police deal with each day where they do the job effectively.

[Guest Manny]

I was invested with the story of all those people murdered in the theatre because I go to theatres. It was of considerably more interest to me than 50 people shot or blown up in Iraq (yawn) or Syria(ho hum). I think we become inured to the kind of international violence which we see so much of and which we really can't, coming from peaceful societies, really related to.

Makes it much easier for us to accept the fact that our governments involve themselves in mass killings in foreign lands, when it is just an abstraction on the tv tube. We run out of empathy pretty fast.

[TheNewTeddy]

It's not just crime but "tragedy" too.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0722/irishman-dies-attempting-to-swim-english-channel.html

The headline is "(man) dies attempting to swim English Channel"

My first reaction is "WTF? why the **** are you swimming the English Channel, are you stupid or something?"

I don't "feel bad" about things like this at all.

[bleeding heart]

It's not just crime but "tragedy" too.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0722/irishman-dies-attempting-to-swim-english-channel.html

The headline is "(man) dies attempting to swim English Channel"

My first reaction is "WTF? why the **** are you swimming the English Channel, are you stupid or something?"

I don't "feel bad" about things like this at all.

Well, I think most people don't, actually, except in those rare cases where genuine empathy and compassion suddenly kick in, unannounced and unexpectedly.

[Topaz]

I've been listening to some of the radio US stations and one host said he thinks if more Americans had guns, registered but concealed license, what happened at the the theatre, maybe someone could have shot him. I can't see that because he was wearing armour,which really is well thought out or weird? So what are the government going to do, ban hand guns, probably not, because of the gun clubs will fight that, so the only other way to to ban people from hand guns or take away their liberties or better yet, come down harder of the gun store owners and online sales with new tougher rules of selling. I also think you'll see more security around for a while. The saddest is the 6 year girl who was killed and I think I heard a baby was hurt of killed also and the three men that used their bodies to protect the women beside them.