Quebec Images and Realities

[August1991]

What a thread.

The French didn't found anything. There was a French colony here. Then the English established theirs. There was a war, the French lost. About a hundred years later, Canada was founded.

The English and French founded colonies at roughly the same time in North America: early 17th century. There was a war in Europe. (Frederick the Great was trying to create Germany by invading Poland; the English sided with the Prussian.) In the Peace Treaty of 1763, France abandoned its North American colony to Britain. For 90 years, no ship arrived from France to British North America.

One hundred years later, in 1867, Britain and the English colonists (largely) gave up trying to assimilate the Roman Catholic French-speaking habitants in their midst. The US Civil War was probably a factor in deciding to appease.

The reality is different. For what may be purely pragmatic reasons, much of the hiking literature (and I'm not talking about la-di-da hikes that would attract casual or out of shape tourists) were translated into English. At most establishments (unless the person was playing "dumb") most people seemed to be able to communicate well in English.

Canada's bilingual nature is truly a lesson in the limits of the State, and the importance of private affairs in society.

jbg, the great thing about America, IMHO, is that this fact of life of all societies was officially recognized.

The anglophones of Quebec City can buy newspapers, see movies, be served in restaurants in English. The francophones of Calgary (for example) cannot. You tell me: which society is more civilized, Calgary or Quebec City? [The Internet has dramatically changed this situation. Francophones in Calgary can now read/watch in French.]

The Internet? The State has nothing to do with this state of affairs. As Harper oftens says, we are not a bilingual country; we are a country of two languages. So, maybe the best protection of the individual is the private sector.

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According to Trudeau, the federal government has an obligation to provide service in French and English to all Canadians. What Canadians do in their daily lives is something entirely different.

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As a final point (although I may return to comment on other posts above), I have been travelling in Eastern Europe in the past few years. When Trudeau said that Lévesque would make of west Montréal a Danzig of the New World, he had a point.

Lvov is no longer Polish, and Kaliningrad is no longer German.

jbg, we Canadians live under the spectre of Europe while you Americans have created a New World.

Edited July 23, 2012 by August1991

[Moonbox]

Whatever you're trying to say August, I couldn't understand. Your point went over my head I guess.

[Argus]

The anglophones of Quebec City can buy newspapers, see movies, be served in restaurants in English. The francophones of Calgary (for example) cannot. You tell me: which society is more civilized, Calgary or Quebec City?

How is the fact that Canadian and American tourists travel to Quebec city while Quebecers fail to travel to Calgary related to which is more 'civilized'?

[August1991]

Whatever you're trying to say August, I couldn't understand. Your point went over my head I guess.

It went over my head too, I guess.

I'm trying to figure out how different people live together.

As much as I love Quebec (and dislike Montreal), I have to admit that Montreal is now (sadly) a rare city in the world.

Once upon a time, there were many multilingual, multicultural cities in the world; cities that worked in two or more languages.

Nowadays, there are few: Montreal, Jerusalem. Brussels, maybe. Geneva. Hong kong, Bombay, Calcutta - no. Cairo, not.

Lvov was once a wonderful place. It was a multilingual, multicultural city.

Edited July 23, 2012 by August1991

[Moonbox]

It went over my head too, I guess.

Once upon a time, there were many multilingual, multicultural cities in the world; cities that worked in two or more languages.

Nowadays, there are few: Montreal, Jerusalem. Brussels, maybe. Geneva. Hong kong, Bombay, Calcutta - no. Cairo, not.

Lvov was once a wonderful place. It was a multilingual, multicultural city.

Okay okay. I get you now. This, however, is a gradual evolution that's been taking place since the beginning of time. The further you go back in time, the more diverse cultures and languages get. France wasn't even a country in Medieval times. They spoke different languages depending on which town you lived in. Language is simply a means of communicating and I think it's very natural that certain languages will eventually take precedence over others.

[August1991]

Okay okay. I get you now. This, however, is a gradual evolution that's been taking place since the beginning of time. The further you go back in time, the more diverse cultures and languages get.

Huh? Gradual evolution?

Do you know what happened in Lvov?

Beirut was once a wonderful city.

[Moonbox]

Huh? Gradual evolution?

Do you know what happened in Lvov?

Beirut was once a wonderful city.

You were talking about Montreal and other multi-cultural cities. Are you somehow comparing anti-Jewish pogroms to Montreal? Make your point clear, because you're back to not making any sense. All I'm saying is that language and cultural barriers have been steadily breaking down for thousands of years and will naturally continue to do so. Resisting it or complaining about it is about as worthwhile as yelling at the wind.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Moonbox

[jbg]

The anglophones of Quebec City can buy newspapers, see movies, be served in restaurants in English. The francophones of Calgary (for example) cannot. You tell me: which society is more civilized, Calgary or Quebec City? [The Internet has dramatically changed this situation. Francophones in Calgary can now read/watch in French.]

If there were a large contingent of French-speaking tourists to Calgary wouldn't they find a way to function bilingually?

In the U.S. many businesses serve in Spanish as well as English.

[TheNewTeddy]

Quebec has this idea that the founding of Canada was the founding of all Anglo and Franco parts of NA (save the USA) while the reality is that Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PEI, Newfoundland, BC, and Ruperts Land (all much more than 50%+1 Anglo) decided to merge with the Province of Canada (50%+1 Anglo)

Quebecois also think of themselves as an ethnicity, just as ethnic as the Kurds, or Baluchis, or Palestinians, but see themselves, like the latter does, as being unfairly lumped into a larger ethnic group to which they consider themselves to have no association.

Which is too bad since they do.

[The_Squid]

If there were a large contingent of French-speaking tourists to Calgary wouldn't they find a way to function bilingually?

In the U.S. many businesses serve in Spanish as well as English.

If you go to a French area in Quebec, expect to use a lot of hand gestures and speak loudly!! Just like a tourist in any place that doesn't speak your language.

This whole Quebec language thing has been blown out of all proportion because it has been politicized and this is what appears on the news.

[jbg]

If you go to a French area in Quebec, expect to use a lot of hand gestures and speak loudly!! Just like a tourist in any place that doesn't speak your language.

I was there and unless things changed from either July 14 or 17, 2012 (the days I was in Quebec City) that's not the way it was at all. The ones that wanted my business (most of them) spoke pretty good English.

This whole Quebec language thing has been blown out of all proportion because it has been politicized and this is what appears on the news.

Unless you're a resident Anglophone you're basically right. I still don't see why street signs, and especially signage on major highways, can't be in both languages.

Particularly in the Eastern Townships and Montreal where there are large numbers of English-speakers.

[Moonbox]

If you go to a French area in Quebec, expect to use a lot of hand gestures and speak loudly!! Just like a tourist in any place that doesn't speak your language.

Maybe if you go to some goat ranch up out in the country, but certainly not in places like Trois Rivieres or especially not Quebec City itself. Last time I was there I ended up really annoyed/disappointed because whenever I talked French to anyone they'd respond in English. They didn't want to deal with my accented French and would rather just speak English to me.

[jbg]

I know a lot of Francophones. Not one of them has ever 'struggled' to maintain the French language. Yet most of them benefit by getting jobs with the government, and then being promoted, in some cases well above their skill level.

Their politicians are good at "struggling" to be big fish in a small pond.

[TheNewTeddy]

Maybe if you go to some goat ranch up out in the country, but certainly not in places like Trois Rivieres or especially not Quebec City itself. Last time I was there I ended up really annoyed/disappointed because whenever I talked French to anyone they'd respond in English. They didn't want to deal with my accented French and would rather just speak English to me.

I went to the McDonalds near the metro station on Longueuil and had a server that spoke no English. It was not a problem however - if both participants in the conversation are willing to put in the effort, you don't need to gesture wildly and scream, you can be understood. The problem is with those Anglo Canadians who refuse to even try French and those Franco Quebecois who refuse to give an Anglo the time of day.

[Wild Bill]

The anglophones of Quebec City can buy newspapers, see movies, be served in restaurants in English. The francophones of Calgary (for example) cannot.

This is unfortunate for those francophones in Calgary.

Both of them!

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I recently travelled to Montreal, stayed in the burbs with someone we met in Uni.

Here was my take.

The French suburbs are the least friendly place to be in this country. No one says "Bonjour" or looks you in the eye for fear of you being Anglophone. It's like they are trying to hate you for your language. The people we stayed with noted that this was a problem, many Quebeckers feel to Anglophones the same as red neck racists feel to Africans.

The downtown is much more multicultural and friendly, English could be used easily (presumably because they want my money). People aren't trying to hate you for your language down there. Made sure to go to Schwartz for smoked meat, it was a good friendly place.

Overall - I'd never want to move there as an Anglophone. But, the down town experience was good.

Edited August 20, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Antiochus]

I recently travelled to Montreal, stayed in the burbs with someone we met in Uni.

Here was my take.

The French suburbs are the least friendly place to be in this country. No one says "Bonjour" or looks you in the eye for fear of you being Anglophone. It's like they are trying to hate you for your language. The people we stayed with noted that this was a problem, many Quebeckers feel to Anglophones the same as red neck racists feel to Africans.

The downtown is much more multicultural and friendly, English could be used easily (presumably because they want my money). People aren't trying to hate you for your language down there. Made sure to go to Schwartz for smoked meat, it was a good friendly place.

Overall - I'd never want to move there as an Anglophone. But, the down town experience was good.

Yeah, Im going to say it: its absurd.

The Montreal suburbs have their shares of anglophones, heck, they form a majority in many of them. While I do not doubt that racism exist everywhere, the greater Montreal area is actually not that bad a place.

[TheNewTeddy]

Yeah, Im going to say it: its absurd.

The Montreal suburbs have their shares of anglophones, heck, they form a majority in many of them. While I do not doubt that racism exist everywhere, the greater Montreal area is actually not that bad a place.

I was in, what I learned now was the hochelaga-maissoneuve-mercier area and my friend and I could not find anyone willing or able to speak to us in English.

In West Island we could not find anyone willing to even look at us, everyone had their head down, and there was so much graffiti everywhere that we were shocked.

In Downtown we had people purposfully take our orders for food improperly because my friend refused to even try french and mine is god awful

Oddly, the only place where we found many friendly folks was in the Ahunstic-Outremont type area.

Our experiences in Laval and Longiueil were limited but we found the former to be somewhat similar to Gatineau, and the latter to be Quebec's answer to Mississauga.

[Smallc]

I never had any problems in Montreal or Quebec City.

[TheNewTeddy]

I never had any problems in Montreal or Quebec City.

Well, overall I did enjoy my trip to Montreal. I think walking around with a guy who refused to even try French did not help my case much. We took transit everywhere (we are transit fans, like rail fans but for public transit) so our view is skewed by the quality of transit. West Island in particular had poor transit, and it's main bus terminal was jam packed so full of grafitti that there was no place for any more

The whole thing just struck me as though there was no pride within parts of the city.

[Smallc]

Montreal is probably my favourite place I've ever been. I don't speak French, but I always started with Bonjour, and then said Hello. Never had a problem.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Smallc

[Benz]

No one says "Bonjour" or looks you in the eye for fear of you being Anglophone.

If they don't say "hello", I'd say "well maybe", but they don't even say "Bonjour", so it has nothing to do with the language you speak. They don't do it to anyone. In the area where I live, the people are not forthcoming like I see in some country side places. But I think it's like that everywhere in north america. The country side likes to see people, say HI, especially if it's someone new because they don't see often new faces, while the urban people just want to mind their own business, because they see too many new faces they won't see ever again.

It's like they are trying to hate you for your language. The people we stayed with noted that this was a problem, many Quebeckers feel to Anglophones the same as red neck racists feel to Africans.

Where did you stayed?

[Benz]

I was in, what I learned now was the hochelaga-maissoneuve-mercier area and my friend and I could not find anyone willing or able to speak to us in English.

Hochelaga is among the worst places to live, definitly not a good place to visit. I think they were just not willing to speak, no matter what language.

Oddly, the only place where we found many friendly folks was in the Ahunstic-Outremont type area.

Mostly all french people. I once lived in Ahuntsic. It's a nice place. Outremont is more expensive. Some say it's the french version of Westmount.

[Benz]

Maybe if you go to some goat ranch up out in the country, but certainly not in places like Trois Rivieres or especially not Quebec City itself. Last time I was there I ended up really annoyed/disappointed because whenever I talked French to anyone they'd respond in English. They didn't want to deal with my accented French and would rather just speak English to me.

It's a bad habit. They are so glad they can speak english, they don't realise that you want to practice french. When that happen, just insist. They will realise their mistake and get shy.

Being able to speak another language here, is considered as an asset. An improvement of your skills.