Canadian Scientists Protest

Bonam · July 16, 2012

Any scientist worthy of the term "scientist" would use his scientific skills to quickly do some research that would lead him to the conclusion that such "protests" are far from the most effective way to change government policy, if that was truly his/her goal. Real scientists don't have time to waste fooling around "protesting".

waldo · July 16, 2012

Any scientist worthy of the term "scientist" would use his scientific skills to quickly do some research that would lead him to the conclusion that such "protests" are far from the most effective way to change government policy, if that was truly his/her goal.

for the worthy scientists... what 'scientific' skills and what form of 'research' would support your conclusion? What are your, 'far more effective', ways to change government policy... for the worthy scientists?

Real scientists don't have time to waste fooling around "protesting".

my 'research' has quickly shown me a storied history of world-wide, 'unworthy, unreal and foolish time wasting', scientists protesting government policy, including funding cuts.

bleeding heart · July 16, 2012

Any scientist worthy of the term "scientist" would use his scientific skills to quickly do some research that would lead him to the conclusion that such "protests" are far from the most effective way to change government policy, if that was truly his/her goal. Real scientists don't have time to waste fooling around "protesting".

Protesting has massively changed government policy--even governments themselves--here and elsewhere, long ago and in the contemporary era.

So surely you can't be serious?

Edited July 16, 2012 by bleeding heart

cybercoma · July 16, 2012

I'm not sure Bonam knows what happens when enough people protest and the government just doesn't listen.

Bonam · July 17, 2012

Note that I said "such" protests. As in protests of the type in question. Protests that are, more or less (in my estimation), frivolous. I am all for people fighting back against tyrannical regimes, as is presently happening in places around the world, such as Syria. There, people really have something to protest about. But these protests? Meh, it's just another outing for these college students where they hope to find like-minded members of the opposite sex (or same sex as the case may be).

Getting funding cut for your research project should mean writing a better proposal for the next year's funding cycle. Or raising private money for your research. Or looking for cost cutting measures in how to run your research project. Or switching your efforts to researching something more likely to get funded. Or some combination of the above. But protesting because your science project didn't get funded? People need to get over themselves.

There are tens of thousands of scientists in hundreds of different fields all looking for federal dollars to do their research, and only a limited amount of dollars to go around.

cybercoma · July 17, 2012

Note that I said "such" protests. As in protests of the type in question. Protests that are, more or less (in my estimation), frivolous. I am all for people fighting back against tyrannical regimes, as is presently happening in places around the world, such as Syria. There, people really have something to protest about. But these protests?

So let me get something straight here. Unless we're under the most brutal human's rights abusers in the world, like Syria, people should just stfu between elections. That about right?

DogOnPorch · July 17, 2012

So let me get something straight here. Unless we're under the most brutal human's rights abusers in the world, like Syria, people should just stfu between elections. That about right?

They could (gasp!) get involved rather than rioting and protesting. Construction not destruction. In our society, nothing stops you from joining a party, rising through it and getting elected. That takes place between voting...

cybercoma · July 17, 2012

They could (gasp!) get involved rather than rioting and protesting. Construction not destruction. In our society, nothing stops you from joining a party, rising through it and getting elected. That takes place between voting...

So they should quit being scientists and become career politicians or party cogs. Anything but actually voice their displeasure with the direction the government is taking. Again, they should stfu between elections. At election time they can run and vote.

TwoDucks · July 17, 2012

They could (gasp!) get involved rather than rioting and protesting. Construction not destruction. In our society, nothing stops you from joining a party, rising through it and getting elected. That takes place between voting...

It makes me hope they do. I would rather have scientists running our country than lawyers.

Moonlight Graham · July 17, 2012

Any scientist worthy of the term "scientist" would use his scientific skills to quickly do some research that would lead him to the conclusion that such "protests" are far from the most effective way to change government policy, if that was truly his/her goal. Real scientists don't have time to waste fooling around "protesting".

Where's your proof? Show me some peer-reviewed evidence.

DogOnPorch · July 17, 2012

So they should quit being scientists and become career politicians or party cogs. Anything but actually voice their displeasure with the direction the government is taking. Again, they should stfu between elections. At election time they can run and vote.

Well, hitting the streets and busting windows @ The Bay isn't the way to accomplish one's goals. It's uncivilized. Civilized people do things via process rather than anarchy. As for 'career politicians' there is no such thing in a democratic society. You could be out on your azz come election day. Most folks at a demonstration have little clue how the system works and T-Off against the wrong 'evil necon instiution' to begin with. Or walk around with Che Guevara across their chests like THAT'LL help. Jobs do not come from the Job Tree. This includes scientists.

Bonam · July 17, 2012

So let me get something straight here. Unless we're under the most brutal human's rights abusers in the world, like Syria, people should just stfu between elections. That about right?

Syria was one example.

I made specific statements as to why I consider protesting in regard to not getting your research funded to be frivolous.

There are obviously intermediate situations.

Bonam · July 17, 2012

So they should quit being scientists and become career politicians or party cogs. Anything but actually voice their displeasure with the direction the government is taking. Again, they should stfu between elections. At election time they can run and vote.

Better ways to voice your displeasure on a minor issue of funding for a specific science project:

- Give an interview to an interested reporter which will be aired in some form of media

- Write a blog (or communicate via another form of social media)

- Talk about it with fellow scientists at a conference

- Write your government/funding agency/representative

The reason I find these so called scientists "protesting" particularly distasteful is because, being a researcher, I know what my time is worth. Every day, I make progress in research and development, come closer to developing a new product, test new R&D prototypes, learn new (to me) physics to apply to future projects, etc. That is what is exciting about being in research, about being a scientist (that and discovering truly new fundamental knowledge, which only a small subset of scientists do).

There have been many times where projects I've worked on have had their funding discontinued (whether because they were completed successfully, for stupid political reasons, or for reasons of technical failure). Guess what? You keep writing new proposals, some of them get funded, some don't, and you move on. That's science. Moreover, that's life.

If the issue is funding, your time is far better spent applying for / raising new research dollars than protesting over the loss of old ones.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Bonam

Shady · July 17, 2012

Where's your proof? Show me some peer-reviewed evidence.

So-called peer review has been completely corrupted.

waldo · July 17, 2012

But these protests? Meh, it's just another outing for these college students where they hope to find like-minded members of the opposite sex (or same sex as the case may be).

nice! You've gone from denigrating the scientists engaged by initially labeling them as unworthy and unreal, to now belittling them as nothing more than students looking to get laid... while adding in a dose of politically correct sexual predilection - beauty!

Getting funding cut for your research project should mean writing a better proposal for the next year's funding cycle. Or raising private money for your research. Or looking for cost cutting measures in how to run your research project. Or switching your efforts to researching something more likely to get funded. Or some combination of the above. But protesting because your science project didn't get funded? People need to get over themselves

clearly, as the Harper Conservative cuts to policy and research align with your political leanings, you now feign ignorance of Harper Conservative ideologically driven cuts... cuts that emphasize resource based development expansion at any cost including policies weakening/abolishing environmental protections and/or damaging Canada's international scientific reputation. The funding of 'pure science', of environmental research, etc., has been supplanted in favour of Harper Conservatives emphasizing the funding of scientific research with direct industry applications; i.e., commercialization! You know... the target emphasis for your, "writing better proposals"!

waldo · July 17, 2012

Better ways to voice your displeasure on a minor issue of funding for a specific science project:

- Give an interview to an interested reporter which will be aired in some form of media

- Write a blog (or communicate via another form of social media)

- Talk about it with fellow scientists at a conference

- Write your government/funding agency/representative

you know better! You may no longer live in Canada, but given your participation on this MLW board, in the very threads that have discussed Harper Conservative 'censorship' of government scientists, you most certainly know that government scientists do not have an ability to freely give interviews, write blogs, utilize social media... most particularly if they are critical of Harper Conservative government policy/funding cuts.

The reason I find these so called scientists "protesting" particularly distasteful is because, being a researcher, I know what my time is worth. Every day, I make progress in research and development, come closer to developing a new product, test new R&D prototypes, learn new (to me) physics to apply to future projects, etc. That is what is exciting about being in research, about being a scientist (that and discovering truly new fundamental knowledge, which only a small subset of scientists do).

ya, ya... you're a, as you stated, "worthy and real" scientist! What? Not looking to get laid either... with a, as you stated, like-minded member of the opposite sex (or same sex as the case may be)? :lol:

waldo · July 17, 2012

So-called peer review has been completely corrupted.

yes, clearly... your favoured British tabloids hawking climate science denial have assured you of this! :lol:

cybercoma · July 17, 2012

Well, hitting the streets and busting windows @ The Bay isn't the way to accomplish one's goals. It's uncivilized.

When thugs take the opportunity to do illegal things because others are protesting, your answer is to stop people from protesting?

As for 'career politicians' there is no such thing in a democratic society. You could be out on your azz come election day.

Or you get a Senate appointment if you work for Harper's Conservatives. If that's not available, you can be a paid shadow MP.

But you're right. If all else fails, there's probably a job opening at the Conservative propaganda office, which isn't anything like being a politician.

Most folks at a demonstration have little clue how the system works and T-Off against the wrong 'evil necon instiution' to begin with. Or walk around with Che Guevara across their chests like THAT'LL help.

And I'm sure that's the case with all of these highly educated scientists too.

That's sarcasm if you didn't catch it.

Jobs do not come from the Job Tree. This includes scientists.

Gee, thanks. And perhaps my sarcastic ramblings about them getting jobs in the private sector and stop sucking off the public teat is exactly how you feel. It's a painfully stupid position for obvious reasons. I trust I don't need to explain to you why the public (government) should support the arts and sciences. Edited July 17, 2012 by cybercoma

cybercoma · July 17, 2012

Syria was one example.

Sure. There's Burma, Equatorial Guinea, Entrea, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, Somalia, Turkmenistan, Cuba, and Saudi Arabia just to name a few others.

I guess that means no matter what our government does, as long as it's not as bad as those countries we should just stfu and lump it between elections, right?

I made specific statements as to why I consider protesting in regard to not getting your research funded to be frivolous.

What's frivolous, petty actually, is the manner in which Conservatives have gagged federal scientists and cherry-picked what scientific ventures they are going to defund. It's all very ideological and it's designed to eliminate dissenting opinions from their bafflingly ignorant policies. That's the problem.

cybercoma · July 17, 2012

Better ways to voice your displeasure on a minor issue of funding for a specific science project:

- Give an interview to an interested reporter which will be aired in some form of media

- Write a blog (or communicate via another form of social media)

- Talk about it with fellow scientists at a conference

- Write your government/funding agency/representative

The reason I find these so called scientists "protesting" particularly distasteful is because, being a researcher, I know what my time is worth. Every day, I make progress in research and development, come closer to developing a new product, test new R&D prototypes, learn new (to me) physics to apply to future projects, etc. That is what is exciting about being in research, about being a scientist (that and discovering truly new fundamental knowledge, which only a small subset of scientists do).

There have been many times where projects I've worked on have had their funding discontinued (whether because they were completed successfully, for stupid political reasons, or for reasons of technical failure). Guess what? You keep writing new proposals, some of them get funded, some don't, and you move on. That's science. Moreover, that's life.

If the issue is funding, your time is far better spent applying for / raising new research dollars than protesting over the loss of old ones.

1) This is not a "minor issue"

2) These are not "so-called scientists"

3) The issue is how the Conservatives are systematically defunding any scientific projects that may have dissenting opinions from their party's policies and how they've gagged scientists from being able to present their work to the scientific community through conferences and teaching.

cybercoma · July 17, 2012

So-called peer review has been completely corrupted.

Right. I trust you have some kind of unbiased evidence for this.

wyly · July 17, 2012

What's frivolous, petty actually, is the manner in which Conservatives have gagged federal scientists and cherry-picked what scientific ventures they are going to defund. It's all very ideological and it's designed to eliminate dissenting opinions from their bafflingly ignorant policies. That's the problem.

you nailed it, gag them then eliminate their jobs so no info comes out that contradicts the conservative AGW denial-ism or derails their industry over environment policy...my scientist friend confirms the pollution of water as a result of tar sand development but also confirms publicly mentioning it would cost him his federally funded job...all information is strictly vetted...all those protesting scientists are either unemployed, privately employed or provincial employees...

kraychik · July 17, 2012

All I got to say is that when you get scientists protesting in the streets, it's time to stare a little more unflinchingly at the Government.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/11/canada-scientists-strike-protests

So a bunch of leftists, most of them without any real science or technical education, are now being portrayed by the leftist Guardian and its followers like yourself as being representative of "Canadian scientists"? Hilariously, most of the fake scientists on Parliament Hill actually donned white labcoats that they must've ordered from some online retailed in order to look the part. Obama did the same thing when he invited people who looked like doctors to join him for some pro-Obamacare photo ops.

This is so obviously a leftist-orchestrated fake controversy, coordinated with the NDP and/or Liberal Party, with this nonsencial "death of evidence" slogan. Canadians will, unfortunately for socialists like bleeding heart, sleep through this artificial and non-existent controversy.

kraychik · July 17, 2012

Well said! Everybody has to tigthen their belts a little these days. They're no exception.

If they're not economically viable in the private sector, why should the government become an employment agency for these "scientists"?

kraychik · July 17, 2012

They're worried about scientific assessments being downplayed and ignored by the Government.

"Tightening belts" doesn't mean we have to deny scientific assessments.

But then, how can one expect a serious and intelligent discussion from an elitist who thinks that only property owners should even get the vote!

Too good.

What scientific assessments? The long-form census? If they have value, allow the market to provide them with lucrative employment. Go invent the next iPhone, and stop asking people whether they self-identify with this or that ethnicity while pretending to be worth whatever paycheque they receive from the taxpayer.