Tea Party DEMANDS (and gets) publicly funded Muslim education ?

[Michael Hardner]

GOP legislators in Louisiana have realized to their horror that their bill to provide vouchers for private religious schools can actually be used by Muslims.

Rep. Valarie Hodges, a Republican who represents East Baton Rouge and Livingston, now says she wishes she hadn’t voted for the Jindal voucher bill. “I actually support funding for teaching the fundamentals of America’s Founding Fathers’ religion, which is Christianity, in public schools or private schools,” Hodges told the Livingston Parish News. "I liked the idea of giving parents the option of sending their children to a public school or a Christian school,” Hodges added. The newspaper reported that she “mistakenly assumed that ‘religious’ meant ‘Christian.’”

This representative is an utter moron with not even the basic idea of constitutional rights against discrimination. As we liberals belly laugh at the caricatures before us, the sad fact is that public institutions are being taken over by religious and private interests.

The Tea Party stands with the Taliban on the issue of religious education.

Note that the blog points this out too:

The law has already gone into effect and provides for NO STATE OVERSIGHT regarding curriculum or educational standards.

TEA PARTY NEWS TODAY

FreedomWorks Celebrates Historic Education Reform Victory in Louisiana

Governor Jindal's school choice success expected to spark a national commitment to education reform

This is the kind of "choice" that Auguste1991 has pointed to in the past, as characterizing the right wing. So be it. Muslim children in the state will have state high school diplomas sanctioned by Muslim clerics only, while "hillbilly" white kids have their school funding decimated and will be unable to pay to get a proper education.

Any thoughts on this issue as I have unearthed it here ?

[bush_cheney2004]

This representative is an utter moron with not even the basic idea of constitutional rights against discrimination. As we liberals belly laugh at the caricatures before us, the sad fact is that public institutions are being taken over by religious and private interests....

Any thoughts on this issue as I have unearthed it here ?

What a crock....better go read Canada's Constitution Act and preferences given to Catholics and Protestants in four provinces.

[Michael Hardner]

What a crock....better go read Canada's Constitution Act and preferences given to Catholics and Protestants in four provinces.

Hey, nobody is saying that discrimination is a BAD thing, but a country has to decide: are we going to DISCRIMINATE or not ? Every country gets a little confused trying to answer the question - see Dredd Scott for an example maybe...

[Michael Hardner]

And, by the way, the worst kind of discrimination is discrimination against clowns.

No one should favour clowns from their own country, but should favour clowns in other countries and southern states with their laughter EQUALLY.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hey, nobody is saying that discrimination is a BAD thing, but a country has to decide: are we going to DISCRIMINATE or not ? Every country gets a little confused trying to answer the question - see Dredd Scott for an example maybe...

Sorry, not buying it. This form of religious discrimination was instantiated in Canada's founding documents, and has been carried through several rewrites. Canada decided a long time ago.

[bush_cheney2004]

...No one should favour clowns from their own country, but should favour clowns in other countries and southern states with their laughter EQUALLY.

Works for me...Canada has it's "southern" provinces and clowns to go with it.

[Canuckistani]

Sorry, not buying it. This form of religious discrimination was instantiated in Canada's founding documents, and has been carried through several rewrites. Canada decided a long time ago.

Ontario, which does have protestant and catholic school boards just said no to Muslim schools. It's time we got rid of this bullshit. Government schools should be secular.

I believe most provinces have a vouchers system for private schools, which can be any religion. The only problem there is the province gets lax with ensuring the private school meets the same standards as the public ones. EG Bountiful. With Muslims asserting themselves more and more, I think this issue will become more prominent, and, I hope, lead to a clamping down.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Canuckistani

[bush_cheney2004]

Ontario, which does have protestant and catholic school boards just said no to Muslim schools. It's time we got rid of this bullshit. Government schools should be secular.

Okay...that's great, but until that happens, Canada's Constitution Act still enshrines that "bullshit".

[Canuckistani]

Okay...that's great, but until that happens, Canada's Constitution Act still enshrines that "bullshit".

It's grandfathered in for catholics and protestants. Not much problem there, as long as the province makes sure the religious based schools maintain standards. And I believe they do, since both catholic and protestant school boards are "mainstream" they're not just for those two denominations. They also have catholic and protestant social services, doesn't seem to be a problem either. If some other religious group sues because they want their own publicly funded school board, that's when it will hit the fan. As we saw in the last Ontario election, pandering to religious factions is a good way to get your ass kicked at the polls.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's grandfathered in for catholics and protestants. Not much problem there, as long as the province makes sure the religious based schools maintain standards.

Are you serious? It's OK to have preferences for Catholic and Protestant school funding because they were "grandfathered"?

And I believe they do, since both catholic and protestant school boards are "mainstream" they're not just for those two denominations. They also have catholic and protestant social services, doesn't seem to be a problem either.

Different topic...doesn't explain why such preferences aren't struck down or provided to all religions.

If some other religious group sues because they want their own publicly funded school board, that's when it will hit the fan. As we saw in the last Ontario election, pandering to religious factions is a good way to get your ass kicked at the polls.

Matters not to me...I prefer that this backward CONSTITUTIONAL preference continue in Ontario and other provinces if only to have wonderful ammunition for every thread like this one.

[Michael Hardner]

Sorry, not buying it. This form of religious discrimination was instantiated in Canada's founding documents, and has been carried through several rewrites. Canada decided a long time ago.

Right so where is the contradiction or comedy?

[Canuckistani]

Are you serious? It's OK to have preferences for Catholic and Protestant school funding because they were "grandfathered"?

My preference is not to have them, but we've got them, and there doesn't seem to be a problem. These are both mainstream boards, as I understand it. (My province doesn't have them.)

Different topic...doesn't explain why such preferences aren't struck down or provided to all religions.

Because, if as you say, it's in the constitution, it's very difficult to change. So far there hasn't been a challenge to this, so it will likely continue on for now.

Matters not to me...I prefer that this backward CONSTITUTIONAL preference continue in Ontario and other provinces if only to have wonderful ammunition for every thread like this one.

We'll if it matter to you, you should immigrate here so you get a vote. As for ammunition, ammunition for what? Who are you shooting, why, and do they even know they've been shot?

[bush_cheney2004]

My preference is not to have them, but we've got them, and there doesn't seem to be a problem. These are both mainstream boards, as I understand it. (My province doesn't have them.)

"Doesn't seem to be a problem" was great for slavery too...until it wasn't, in Canada and the USA. The history of influence and actual damage by religious organizations and schools in Canada is well documented and consistent with government complicity (e.g. Residential Schools).

Because, if as you say, it's in the constitution, it's very difficult to change. So far there hasn't been a challenge to this, so it will likely continue on for now.

Tooooooooo hard...OK. You're right of course...see Meech Lake.

We'll if it matter to you, you should immigrate here so you get a vote. As for ammunition, ammunition for what? Who are you shooting, why, and do they even know they've been shot?

It is perfect ammunition every time some smug Canadian points at the "south" for this and similar topics. They really have no defense.

Edited July 7, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Canuckistani]

"Doesn't seem to be a problem" was great for slavery too...until it wasn't, in Canada and the USA. The history of influence and actual damage by religious organizations and schools in Canada is well documented and consistent with government complicity (e.g. Residential Schools).

Tooooooooo hard...OK. You're right of course...see Meech Lake.

It is perfect ammunition every time some smug Canadian points at the "south" for this and similar topics. They really have no defense.

Defense from what? The system works fine, much better than yours. We had our little scare with religious funding (for Christians) by the conservatives in Ontario, they got their asses handed to them as a result, so it's doubtful anybody will go there again. It's not theoretically perfect, but works well in practice. Just like our abortion (lack of) laws. Remember that politics is the art of the possible. That's why you have such a dog's breakfast of new healthcare legislation. Because something sane, like our system, just wasn't possible down there.

[kraychik]

Again, I point to this thread, exhibit A, a clear evidence of the smug anti-Americanism that is endemic to the Canadian left. The reality is that America guarantees a much greater degree of individual sovereignty and protection from governmental discrimination than in Canada. Bush_cheney2004 accurately points out the hypocrisy given the discrimination that is enshrined in some of Canada's laws, although I think this is now primarily at the provincial level. There's a lot more institutionalized racism, sexism, and other unjustifiable discriminations codified into law in Canada, but we can address that later. Canada does not have the moral high ground compared to the USA when it comes to protections from religious, racial, or other unjustifiable discriminations practised by the government. So the smugness from the Canadian left here is quite rich.

Alright, so the Louisiana Republican state legislator was silly not to realise that this change to the funding mechanism of education would also fund religious Muslim schools. Somehow this translates to American "public institutions being taken over by religious and private interests"? Talk about hysteria.

[bush_cheney2004]

Defense from what? The system works fine, much better than yours.

Sure it does...just ask First Nations or "visible minorities".

We had our little scare with religious funding (for Christians) by the conservatives in Ontario, they got their asses handed to them as a result, so it's doubtful anybody will go there again.

It doesn't matter what happens in Ontariario so long as you can point attention elsewhere.

It's not theoretically perfect, but works well in practice. Just like our abortion (lack of) laws. Remember that politics is the art of the possible. That's why you have such a dog's breakfast of new healthcare legislation. Because something sane, like our system, just wasn't possible down there.

Give me a break....Canada didn't get off its religious ass when it came to abortions until the Americans busted it wide open. Late term abortions aren't even available in some provinces so guess where patients go? Kansas!

Edited July 7, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

Again, I point to this thread, exhibit A, a clear evidence of the smug anti-Americanism that is endemic to the Canadian left.

There is something of the word *smug* that struck me as wrong in this context, so I looked up the definition again and found the word 'complacent' in there. Certainly when education is under attack from the nuclear morons of the Tea Party, complacency can't be the charge.

We on these boards have had a fair amount of debate on the stupider actions of populists of left and right, so smugness doesn't seem like the right charge.

The reality is that America guarantees a much greater degree of individual sovereignty and protection from governmental discrimination than in Canada. Bush_cheney2004 accurately points out the hypocrisy given the discrimination that is enshrined in some of Canada's laws, although I think this is now primarily at the provincial level. There's a lot more institutionalized racism, sexism, and other unjustifiable discriminations codified into law in Canada, but we can address that later. Canada does not have the moral high ground compared to the USA when it comes to protections from religious, racial, or other unjustifiable discriminations practised by the government. So the smugness from the Canadian left here is quite rich.

Yes, it's wrong to say that one's own country is above reproach on such matters - especially Canada.

But... it is the absolutely comic situation in Louisiana that is the rich part. Allow the leftists a laugh now, and you'll get yours back later.

Alright, so the Louisiana Republican state legislator was silly not to realise that this change to the funding mechanism of education would also fund religious Muslim schools. Somehow this translates to American "public institutions being taken over by religious and private interests"? Talk about hysteria.

Well that's kind of the whole point of it isn't it ? I just don't understand why they're ok with one kind of religious take over and not another.

Also, I don't think the legislator was silly, just stupid and ignorant. Nobody should look down on such disadvantaged persons, it's true, but nobody should vote for them either.

Also, I'd like to go on record to say that I do think religious rights in schooling need to be secured. The recent Ontario political situation is evidence of that.

[bush_cheney2004]

Also, I don't think the legislator was silly, just stupid and ignorant. Nobody should look down on such disadvantaged persons, it's true, but nobody should vote for them either.

Poppycock...people should vote for whomever they please.

[kraychik]

There is a constitutional obstacle here in the form of the Establishment Clause.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

Unfortunately, there are some unique elements to Islam which make is disconcerting. Its scope of ambition and control over people's lives and its anti-democratic nature justifiably concern those that don't want to fund religious Muslim schools. Now, of course Islam isn't monolithic and not all religious Muslim schools are the same, but there is good reason to be concerned with the consequences of this reform to the funding of education considering that Islam is a religion unlike any other.

[Michael Hardner]

Poppycock...people should vote for whomever they please.

Clearly, most Americans agree with you. "Who'd you rather have a beer with" gets you the results you deserve.

Have at it. We prefer to elect unlikeable people with strong vision and good ideas.

[Shady]

Again, I point to this thread, exhibit A, a clear evidence of the smug anti-Americanism that is endemic to the Canadian left.

Exactly right. I love the characterization of the Tea Party DEMANDING this too. It's rich.

[Canuckistani]

Sure it does...just ask First Nations or "visible minorities".

You have no problems with FN's or vis minorities? Ha ha. Actually we're the country others look to for successfully dealing with large scale immigration of visible minorities. Don't see how schoolboards in Ontario have anything to do with FN problems.

It doesn't matter what happens in Ontariario so long as you can point attention elsewhere.

I don't know what this means.

Give me a break....Canada didn't get off its religious ass when it came to abortions until the Americans busted it wide open. Late term abortions aren't even available in some provinces so guess where patients go? Kansas!

What universe do you live in? Canada's supreme court nullified our abortion laws after a number of challenges. No new laws were put in place. (So nothing to do with the US) Doctors in Canada have decided to put restrictions on when they are actually willing to perform abortions. I totally agree with that, would like to see that legislated, so we don't do late term and partial birth - might as well just do a cesarean at that point.

[Michael Hardner]

Exactly right. I love the characterization of the Tea Party DEMANDING this too. It's rich.

Rich is the turn of the worm that resulted in Imams opening schools under legislation supported by the Tea Party. Nothing on this thread tops that, if only for sheer humour.

Like I say, take the joke - you'll get to give it next time. Justin Trudeau is still in politics after all.

[Shady]

Rich is the turn of the worm that resulted in Imams opening schools under legislation supported by the Tea Party. Nothing on this thread tops that, if only for sheer humour.

Like I say, take the joke - you'll get to give it next time. Justin Trudeau is still in politics after all.

But vouchers are a good policy, regardless of whether "evil" Muslims are treated equally.

[bush_cheney2004]

You have no problems with FN's or vis minorities? Ha ha. Actually we're the country others look to for successfully dealing with large scale immigration of visible minorities. Don't see how schoolboards in Ontario have anything to do with FN problems.

The point being made was oppressive government policies implemented through religious organizations.

I don't know what this means.

What that means is that some Canadians will ignore and accept such things as long as they can convince themselves that it is far worse "down south".

What universe do you live in? Canada's supreme court nullified our abortion laws after a number of challenges. No new laws were put in place. (So nothing to do with the US) Doctors in Canada have decided to put restrictions on when they are actually willing to perform abortions. I totally agree with that, would like to see that legislated, so we don't do late term and partial birth - might as well just do a cesarean at that point.

No need to re-debate the history of abortion in Canada or the USA as it has been done in many previous threads. The single point was that Canada lagged behind in so called abortion rights, and even to this day has a very real barrier to access because of funding and/or refusals by health care professionals, leading to the absurd situation wherein Canadians travel to Kansas (of all places) to get abortions.