"EU boss lashes out at Stephen Harper"

[Smallc]

Actually politicians generally dont deserve much credit when the economy is good, or much blame when its bad. They play a very very small part, and they generally all do the exact same things.

Beyond that our economic state has very little to do with the government and politicians and a lot more to do with things like the price of oil doubling, and strong demand for many of exports by emerging nations.

And yet, well governed countries do better economically, at least in ways that generally benefit the people that live there. Funny that, isn't it?

[dre]

They were...the problem was, no one was paying taxes.

More horse shit, and perpetuation of the easily debunked "lazy no-tax-paying greeks" meme. Greeks pay roughly the same percentage of their GDP in taxes as Canada and the US. And between 2001 and 2007 tax revenues increased more than 30%.

As I said before the real problem was they were the victim of terrible monetary policy that was designed for larger European economies, not countries like Greece and Portugal, and they suffered the same false economic boom between 2001 and 2007 that we saw elsewhere in the world. But what REALLY hosed them is that they were hit much harder by the global economic meltdown because they relied on industries like shipping and tourism which were hit particularly hard.

[dre]

And yet, well governed countries do better economically, at least in ways that generally benefit the people that live there. Funny that, isn't it?

Ok well if you want to credit beaurocrats for our economic success instead of the natural and human resources that actually drive our economy and the demand for the things we sell, then I cant stop you.

[Smallc]

More horse shit, and perpetuation of the easily debunked "lazy no-tax-paying greeks" meme. Greeks pay roughly the same percentage of their GDP in taxes as Canada and the US.

Theoretically....in reality, no one was paying much of anything.

[Smallc]

Ok well if you want to credit beaurocrats for our economic success instead of the natural and human resources that actually drive our economy and the demand for the things we sell, then I cant stop you.

But you're trying to separate parts of society for some reason. You just can't do that.

[dre]

Theoretically....in reality, no one was paying much of anything.

Again... Horseshit. The government successfully collected about 30% of GDP in taxes, and the ammount of taxes being paid increased 30% in the years prior to 2007. Your parroting something you heard somewhere because you didnt take the time to read up on it and realize its false.

Edited June 20, 2012 by dre

[dre]

But you're trying to separate parts of society for some reason. You just can't do that.

You were the one trying to assign credit for our economy to TWO PEOPLE. I just pointed out that in general government plays a very small part, and government figureheads like presidents and prime ministers basically just do what their financial advisors tell them to do.

The crediting of political leaders with economic success is very much a cultural thing here in North America, but for the most part leaders are just victimes of circumstance. For example, Martin and Clinton happened to be in charge during the .COM explosion which saw a glut of high paying jobs and fast economic growth, but they certainly did not create the Information Technology age.

The best any government can do is grease the tracks a little.

[jacee]

Illusions of prosperity presumably include some trappings of prosperity, i.e. a government salary, benefits of some kind. It hasn't ended well, but as I have said the people voted for this directly or indirectly.

I agree. And it sounds like there's culpability there.

It's easy to say the people are responsible, but when we're fed bullcrap by politicians and banks LOVE to overextend credit and take huge risks ... who's really responsible for financial crashes?

[Fletch 27]

This has NOTHING to do with Greek banks... Not in the least... This is about lazy people living large for 25 years. The chickens came home to roost...

There was NO tie to credit my dear... Its all about the greeks living off of a dime that wasn't available... In THIS case... Its their own fault. NO banks involved... Do your homework... Maybe be proud for Steve harper lecturing to the un-educated... They need it...

It's easy to say the people are responsible, but when we're fed bullcrap by politicians and banks LOVE to overextend credit and take huge risks ... who's really responsible for financial crashes?

[Smallc]

Again... Horseshit. The government successfully collected about 30% of GDP in taxes, and the ammount of taxes being paid increased 30% in the years prior to 2007. Your parroting something you heard somewhere because you didnt take the time to read up on it and realize its false.

Somewhere? Like...everywhere?

[Smallc]

You were the one trying to assign credit for our economy to TWO PEOPLE.

If you thought that's what I said, you were totally misreading it. As the people at the top, they deserve more credit. Society in general deserves a large amount.

[Smallc]

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/The-Circle-Bastiat/2010/0503/Why-are-Greeks-not-paying-their-taxes

The New York Times reports that many wealthy, high-earning Greeks are not reporting their income. It’s estimated that 20 to 30 percent of Greek GDP is underground, and “the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion…” Like it was the government’s in the first place.

Somewhere like...the NYT?

[punked]

Again... Horseshit. The government successfully collected about 30% of GDP in taxes, and the ammount of taxes being paid increased 30% in the years prior to 2007. Your parroting something you heard somewhere because you didnt take the time to read up on it and realize its false.

You do know the Greeks were cooking their books in 2007 right? They were doing it because they are forced to stay in the EU to have a deficit only so big so they cooked their books and used loans to make up the difference. You are so far behind the curve on this one, the government cooked the books because they couldn't get the public to pay taxes. You need to read boomerang. The whole EU situation makes a lot more sense when your release it is a bunch of small balls which all dropped at the same time. Anyone would have been no problem for the EU to handle but as they pill up it becomes harder and harder.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/business/16599/evidence-mounts-greece-cooked-books

Edited June 20, 2012 by punked

[Michael Hardner]

What austerity!!! Greeks debt to GDP ration was under what most economists told them was sustainable, the ECB was buying up Greek bonds with extremely low yields, and they had one of the strongest growth economies in Europe.

Who exactly were Greeks supposed to vote for to get this austerity? Go ahead and tell us! Greeks financial apparatus and its banks were telling both the people and the government that everything was fine. The ECB were telling the Greek people and government that everything was fine, and buyers of bonds were sending Greece a signal that everything was fine.

This is rubbish Michael. This entire meme youre parroting is not supported by any of the data or facts.

Go ahead and tell us who Greeks were supposed to vote for between 2001 and 2007 in order to avoid a debt crisis caused by global financial crisis that nobody saw coming!

I don't know what political choices were available to Greece during that period, but I do know which choices they made.

The Greek government now acknowledges the need for implementing economic reforms to improve competitiveness (being hampered during the last decade, due to excessive salary increases and counterproductive bureaucratic laws and procedures), and the need to redirect much of its current governmental spending from non-growth sectors (e.g. military) into growth stimulating sectors.

...

Huge fiscal imbalances developed during the past six years from 2004 to 2009, where "the output increased in nominal terms by 40%, while central government primary expenditures increased by 87% against an increase of only 31% in tax revenues." Thus the Greek government now acknowledges the need to restore the fiscal balance of the public budget, by implementing permanent real expenditure cuts (meaning expenditures are only allowed to grow 3.8% from 2009 to 2013, which is below the expected inflation at 6.9%), and with overall revenues planned to grow 31.5% from 2009 to 2013, secured not only by new/higher taxes but also by a major reform of the ineffective Tax Collection System.

...

Since it had not been reduced during the good years with strong economic growth, there was no room for the government to continue running large deficits in 2010, neither for the years ahead.

[Michael Hardner]

It's easy to say the people are responsible, but when we're fed bullcrap by politicians and banks LOVE to overextend credit and take huge risks ... who's really responsible for financial crashes?

I think the people, the politicians and the investors all share the blame, which makes sense as they're all the ones who will and have been hurt as well.

[WWWTT]

More horse shit, and perpetuation of the easily debunked "lazy no-tax-paying greeks" meme. Greeks pay roughly the same percentage of their GDP in taxes as Canada and the US. And between 2001 and 2007 tax revenues increased more than 30%.

As I said before the real problem was they were the victim of terrible monetary policy that was designed for larger European economies, not countries like Greece and Portugal, and they suffered the same false economic boom between 2001 and 2007 that we saw elsewhere in the world. But what REALLY hosed them is that they were hit much harder by the global economic meltdown because they relied on industries like shipping and tourism which were hit particularly hard.

Another problem in southern European union countries that never gets mentioned here.

And that is the cost of housing and medicare.

When the Union opened up its borders in 1992,there was a flood of German retired citizens to southern Europe,driving up the cost of housing and using their medicare.

I have not the time to do the research,but I know the northern Europeans were the cause of many of the problems to start with.

WWWTT

[dre]

I don't know what political choices were available to Greece during that period, but I do know which choices they made.

If you dont know of any choice the Greeks could have made then why on earth would you condemn them for not making that choice?

Once again. You condemn the greeks for not voting for austerity. Who were they supposed to vote for?

[dre]

You do know the Greeks were cooking their books in 2007 right? They were doing it because they are forced to stay in the EU to have a deficit only so big so they cooked their books and used loans to make up the difference. You are so far behind the curve on this one, the government cooked the books because they couldn't get the public to pay taxes. You need to read boomerang. The whole EU situation makes a lot more sense when your release it is a bunch of small balls which all dropped at the same time. Anyone would have been no problem for the EU to handle but as they pill up it becomes harder and harder.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/business/16599/evidence-mounts-greece-cooked-books

More horseshit. There was no problem getting the greeks to pay taxes in fact tax revenues increased more than 30%. All you are doing is parroting the same easily debunked crap.

The fact is that as far as debt up until 2007 Greece did exactly what their creditors, and their financial apparatus, and most of the worlds economists told them to do. If there was any sort of widespread dissaproval then people would not have been buying low yield bonds in 2006.

Edited June 21, 2012 by dre

[dre]

I think the people, the politicians and the investors all share the blame, which makes sense as they're all the ones who will and have been hurt as well.

Funny... everyone shares blame except for the people that actually caused the crisis.

[bleeding heart]

Would you expect me to disagree?

Certainly; absolutely. But if I'm wrong, all the better.

[bleeding heart]

It's easy to say the people are responsible, but when we're fed bullcrap by politicians and banks LOVE to overextend credit and take huge risks ... who's really responsible for financial crashes?

Yes, there's a pretty clear theme emerging on this thread (and eslewhere, of course..it's actually quite an ancient article of Faith):

1. Harper's done a good job;

2. We can't really blame the banks;

3. It's the fault of the citizens.

Now, sure, a little noise is made abotu "sharing the blame"...and that's fine, if platitudinous...but even as they say that, they also keep reminding us that

1. Harper's done a good job;

2. The banks are pretty awesome;

3. It's the fault of the citizens.

so by "share the blame" we really mean "don't blame the political leaders, and don't blame the mega-financiers and so on; blame the people. Blame the weak."

It's really Argus's "tax the poor" post dressed up as macroeconomics.

At bottom, it's class warfare. Top-down, as most class warfare is.

Edited June 21, 2012 by bleeding heart

[bleeding heart]

Funny... everyone shares blame except for the people that actually caused the crisis.

Yep. My point in the preceding post.

We "share the blame"...except for a couple of wise leaders (certainly Canada's!....salute the maple leaf and wipe a sentimental tear!....), the banks, big-scale international financiers...they did a bang-up job!

"We" has a surprisingly specific connotation in this discussion, and the denotation be damned.

Edited June 21, 2012 by bleeding heart

[PIK]

Another problem in southern European union countries that never gets mentioned here.

And that is the cost of housing and medicare.

When the Union opened up its borders in 1992,there was a flood of German retired citizens to southern Europe,driving up the cost of housing and using their medicare.

I have not the time to do the research,but I know the northern Europeans were the cause of many of the problems to start with.

WWWTT

And lets not forget green energy, look at the countries that bought into the myth of green energy,(ONT included)and you see why some are so broke.

[Michael Hardner]

Funny... everyone shares blame except for the people that actually caused the crisis.

Who would you like to add to the list then ?

[Michael Hardner]

Yep. My point in the preceding post.

We "share the blame"...except for a couple of wise leaders (certainly Canada's!....salute the maple leaf and wipe a sentimental tear!....), the banks, big-scale international financiers...they did a bang-up job!

"We" has a surprisingly specific connotation in this discussion, and the denotation be damned.

Well, some banks are to blame for sure and some political leaders too.