Jack Weber Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 Of course not. But that's entirely a different discussion than the blamelets we see here... You don't think the fact that Israel exists in the heart of the Middle East sticks in the craw of most Islamofascists?? You don't think the irrefutable links to NAZI Germany through the Grand Mufti and his progeny,Yasser Arafat,have alot to do with things like The Hamas Manifesto and the brain dribblings coming out of Tehran? You don't think those two things are the central theme of the Islamofascist blood hatred of "The Crusaders"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 You don't think the fact that Israel exists in the heart of the Middle East sticks in the craw of most Islamofascists?? You don't think the irrefutable links to NAZI Germany through the Grand Mufti and his progeny,Yasser Arafat,have alot to do with things like The Hamas Manifesto and the brain dribblings coming out of Tehran? You don't think those two things are the central theme of the Islamofascist blood hatred of "The Crusaders"? I have no idea what you're talking about, but I didn't say these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 I have no idea what you're talking about, but I didn't say these things. You claim that DoP's pointing out things like the Grand Mufti and the irrefutable links to NAZIsm (amongst other things) are a different discussion... Let's see... Islamofascists bomb a church ( I'm assuming a Christian Church) in either central or southern Nigeria.(I know the region so I didn't have to read the article) And you don't think a little historical context is in order? I suppose we could go into the tribal issues of northern Nigeria and the more affluent south...I suppose we could go into the intractable corruption issues of successive governments in Nigeria...I suppose we could go into how Big Oil (OPEC) plays its part in keeping the status quo within Nigeria... However,these issues with Islamofascists never seem to go away in that country... Why do you think Islamic militants blew themsleves up,and 12 innocent Christians, at a church in Nigeria? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 So you agree that Iran is a terrorist state then? Iran supports various proxies in the middle east, most of them groups that represent shia muslims throughout the region. If they are a terrorist state then so are most other mid and upper tier countries. The reality is Iran has been one of the better behaved states in the region, and for the most part a victim not a perp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 You claim that DoP's pointing out things like the Grand Mufti and the irrefutable links to NAZIsm (amongst other things) are a different discussion... Let's see... Islamofascists bomb a church ( I'm assuming a Christian Church) in either central or southern Nigeria.(I know the region so I didn't have to read the article) And you don't think a little historical context is in order? I suppose we could go into the tribal issues of northern Nigeria and the more affluent south...I suppose we could go into the intractable corruption issues of successive governments in Nigeria...I suppose we could go into how Big Oil (OPEC) plays its part in keeping the status quo within Nigeria... However,these issues with Islamofascists never seem to go away in that country... Why do you think Islamic militants blew themsleves up,and 12 innocent Christians, at a church in Nigeria? Yes, this is a different discussion than. "I hate this religion" or "This religion causes violence" or whatever you're trying to make. Tell me which point you're trying to make with all these examples first, then we can continue. Is it that you don't like a certain group of people ? Is it that joining that religion causes you to become violent ? What are these examples proving exactly ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Iran supports various proxies in the middle east, most of them groups that represent shia muslims throughout the region. If they are a terrorist state then so are most other mid and upper tier countries. The reality is Iran has been one of the better behaved states in the region, and for the most part a victim not a perp. I would have to disagree, they are sponsoring terrorist organizations which have as their central idea the destruction of Israel, not freedom from an oppressor, not pushing back an occupier but the complete annihilation of a nation and/or the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I would have to disagree, they are sponsoring terrorist organizations which have as their central idea the destruction of Israel, not freedom from an oppressor, not pushing back an occupier but the complete annihilation of a nation and/or the people. I can assume you find this abhorrent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I would have to disagree, they are sponsoring terrorist organizations which have as their central idea the destruction of Israel, not freedom from an oppressor, not pushing back an occupier but the complete annihilation of a nation and/or the people. Its not that simple. Those organizations are multi-faceted. Take Hezbollah for example... They are the only representation In Lebanon for the Lebanese shia majority. Iran supports them by proxy just like they support shia organizations in Iraq. This is just what countries do. Western countries have backed all kinds of terrorists in the middle east, and worse... brutal autocratic regimes. Israel has sponsored terrorist organizations in Lebanon as well. Counties like Canada have provided refuge for the Tamils. The west actually sponsored at one time, the terrorists that ended up forming Alqeada. At the end of the day one persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter. And the reality is like I said Iran has behaved much better than almost all those other countries. They have been the target of multiple brutal invasions, some backed by the west in which 10's of thousands of people had all kinds of brutal chemical weapons used on them, but they really havent done much in the way of overt aggression against anyone. In any case... not our problem. Let them figure it out or kill each other... Im dont wanna spend even one dime on trying to stop a bunch of violent scumbags from killing each other if they wanna fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted June 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Yes, this is a different discussion than. "I hate this religion" or "This religion causes violence" or whatever you're trying to make. Tell me which point you're trying to make with all these examples first, then we can continue. Is it that you don't like a certain group of people ? Is it that joining that religion causes you to become violent ? What are these examples proving exactly ? The point is that we're at war with at least a faction of these people. And inventing distinctions between them is unhelpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 The point is that we're at war with at least a faction of these people. And inventing distinctions between them is unhelpful. What "inventing?" Surely you realize that there are great variations, ie: distinctions, among Islam and Muslims, just as there is among Christianity and Christians. We are not at war with Islam, but, as you point out, a "faction" - so don't you think it's important to understand and recognize the distinctions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Its not that simple. Those organizations are multi-faceted. Take Hezbollah for example... They are the only representation In Lebanon for the Lebanese shia majority. Iran supports them by proxy just like they support shia organizations in Iraq. This is just what countries do. Western countries have backed all kinds of terrorists in the middle east, and worse... brutal autocratic regimes. Israel has sponsored terrorist organizations in Lebanon as well. Counties like Canada have provided refuge for the Tamils. The west actually sponsored at one time, the terrorists that ended up forming Alqeada. My issue is not so much the terrorist but the fact that they are sponsoring terrorists out to annihilate a nation and its people. If there was an acceptable end goal anywhere in their preachings for example if they had the goal of a free and independent Palestine AND a free and Independent Israel I wouldn't approve of terrorist activities but at the same time It would be the problem of the nations doing the oppressing whereas now, my issue is that there is no acceptable solution as most of the organizations are bent on destruction and will not settle for anything less. Add to that the fact that Iran has also been preaching annihilation of Israel and you can see why some people feel a little uneasy with even a remote possibility of them getting a nuclear weapon. At the end of the day one persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter. And one persons fight for freedom is everyone else's genocide... And the reality is like I said Iran has behaved much better than almost all those other countries. They have been the target of multiple brutal invasions, some backed by the west in which 10's of thousands of people had all kinds of brutal chemical weapons used on them, but they really havent done much in the way of overt aggression against anyone. How have they behaved much better? What is the criteria to measure their behaviour? And how many brutal invasions? I n any case... not our problem. Let them figure it out or kill each other... Im dont wanna spend even one dime on trying to stop a bunch of violent scumbags from killing each other if they wanna fight. Thats great, but like everything else in life there are a bunch of innocent people in the middle of it all. There might be some violent scumbags but vast majority are people like you and I, who just want to live in peace so they can raise their kids, see them graduate high school, college, get married and have kids of their own and that is on both sides of the conflict. Look at Rwanda, the world left the violent scumbags to do as they pleased and 800,000-1,000,000 people lost their lives, or the Balkans, Sudan, Somalia... I think we as human beings have a duty to help people, to protect the weak and defensives just as we would want someone to come and assist us if we ever were to be attacked or if it ever came to Canadians being murdered in the streets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 The point is that we're at war with at least a faction of these people. And inventing distinctions between them is unhelpful. I'm sorry but the invention is in those who will put peaceful people in the same group as terrorists because they share a religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 What "inventing?" Surely you realize that there are great variations, ie: distinctions, among Islam and Muslims, just as there is among Christianity and Christians. We are not at war with Islam, but, as you point out, a "faction" - so don't you think it's important to understand and recognize the distinctions? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 The point is that we're at war with at least a faction of these people. And inventing distinctions between them is unhelpful. I'll remember that when I try to make the distinction between Jews and Zionists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted June 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I'll remember that when I try to make the distinction between Jews and Zionists. I have always believed that anti-Zionism is close to equal to anti-Judaism. Zionism is the love of the land of Israel as a Jewish state, pure and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I have always believed that anti-Zionism is close to equal to anti-Judaism. Zionism is the love of the land of Israel as a Jewish state, pure and simple. Then you are only doing yourself a disservice in the long run by not understanding the difference between the two. Even a stupid agnostic like me can understand the difference. Even Israelis/Jews are divided on that stance. Example of a self hating Jew. Seems to be that Zionism is anti-Judiasm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted June 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Then you are only doing yourself a disservice in the long run by not understanding the difference between the two. Even a stupid agnostic like me can understand the difference. Even Israelis/Jews are divided on that stance. ************ Seems to be that Zionism is anti-Judiasm I was actually at that parade and saw those signs. My analysis is that those creeps are willing to live in Israel, draw benefits, leech off the government, not serve in the army and stick their thumb in the eye of productive, hard working Jews, in many cases their own wives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I was actually at that parade and saw those signs. My analysis is that those creeps are willing to live in Israel, draw benefits, leech off the government, not serve in the army and stick their thumb in the eye of productive, hard working Jews, in many cases their own wives. Is that what you would say about people here in Canada and the USA protesting against the crimes of their own government? That they are leeches? If they don't serve in the Military they are not real Jews? These guys want peace... do you want peace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Seems to be that Zionism is anti-Judiasm That's Neturei Karta, the same clowns that went to Dinnerjackets Holocaust Denial Conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 That's Neturei Karta, the same clowns that went to Dinnerjackets Holocaust Denial Conference. I'm reading a really good book right now - What We Knew: Terror, Mass Murder, and Everyday Life in Nazi Germany - An Oral History - and considering what went on, the denials, the knowledge but indifference, and even the failure of the Jews to rebel en masse at the time, I can understand why some take such a strong stance regarding their survival now; especially in light of the PC mindset so many have regarding Islam right now - which is really just the flip side of those who blame "Islam" rather than the extremist faction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Neturei Karta, if I recall, believe Israel is to be created by God, not man. Therefore, Israel is false...blah, blah, blah. These wingnutz are wingnutz next to other Hasidics. But, they get trotted out by Jew baiters as an example of anti-Zionism...Dinnerjacket being the most famous. Our posters here, less so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) I can understand why some take such a strong stance regarding their survival now; your crocodile tears about israel's actions being made due to survival no longer works. many, including younger jews abroad see right through the b.s. survival = increasing illegal government funded settlements survival = not allowing a palestinian state to form survival = keeping thousands of people in an open air prison survival = survival = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY8dPGiOTGs Edited June 10, 2012 by bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 your crocodile tears about israel's actions being made due to survival no longer works. many, including younger jews abroad see right through the b.s. Speaking of b.s., "understanding" is synonymous with "crocodile tears?" But yeah, I realize that past actions only can be taken into consideration when understanding why Palestinians carry out terrorist attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Speaking of b.s., "understanding" is synonymous with "crocodile tears?" But yeah, I realize that past actions only can be taken into consideration when understanding why Palestinians carry out terrorist attacks. Arabs killing Arabs all over the Muslim world in country after subjugated country. Iran hangs homosexuals, Syrians murdering civilians in the daily news,Sectarian, Sunni and Shiites at war everywhere. Factions of Islamists and radical Muslims burning churches, killing social workers, killing UN or Red Cross workers. Attacking subways and Trade centers, murdering in Darfur, killing over cartoons and bears named Mohammad. Ah, but those nasty Jews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Arabs killing Arabs all over the Muslim world in country after subjugated country. Iran hangs homosexuals, Iran isn`t Arab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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