Robert Gates talks OBL

[GostHacked]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57435322/robert-gates-concern-about-osama-bin-laden-raid-was-he-there/?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.0

(CBS News) Former Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said Wednesday he had "no doubts that the SEALs could perform the mission" that killed Osama bin Laden. His concern was whether or not bin Laden was in the compound.

"We didn't have one single piece of hard data that he was actually in that compound, not one," Gates told "CBS this Morning" co-host Charlie Rose. "The whole thing was a circumstantial case built by analysts at CIA."

Looks like the CIA does it again! But his next statements kind of confuse me.

Gates wanted to bomb and not go in to kill bin Laden. "My view was, 'Let's kill him, but let's use a missile of some kind,'" Gates said. "And, and the reason, the objection to that was, "Well, we couldn't collect any information to exploit."

"If this mission had failed, it could've put the war in Iraq, in Afghanistan, at risk," Gates said. He said Mr. Obama's decision to go through with the raid was a "courageous call."

If Osama really was not at that compound, then why would he call Obama courageous for the attack?

Full transcript here http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505271_162-57435202/robert-gates-charlie-rose-interview-transcript/

So no hard evidence OBL was in Pakistan. And a failed mission would have really been a mark on the US. So now I have doubts about the body sitting at the bottom of the ocean.

Either it was all just circumstantial, but he was there. Or it was circumstantial and he was never there.

[Moonlight Graham]

Really interesting story. Thanks for the link.

I think the "courage" comment comes from the fact that it was a tough call, therefore it took balls to go ahead on it based on how it could have blown up in his face.

Gates seems like a good Sec. of Defense. He is calm, logical, and doesn't seem ideological but more fact-based. A big contrast to Rumsfeld for Bush.

I think it would be a bit hard to hide it if they didn't kill OBL, since if OBL was still alive he could put out a video saying "uh, hi there, i'm still alive!".

[Signals.Cpl]

Really interesting story. Thanks for the link.

I think the "courage" comment comes from the fact that it was a tough call, therefore it took balls to go ahead on it based on how it could have blown up in his face.

Gates seems like a good Sec. of Defense. He is calm, logical, and doesn't seem ideological but more fact-based. A big contrast to Rumsfeld for Bush.

I think it would be a bit hard to hide it if they didn't kill OBL, since if OBL was still alive he could put out a video saying "uh, hi there, i'm still alive!".

I think his issue was more because they had to essentially "invade" Pakistan. If OBL was not there it would be hard to explain why they were there. Saying "Pakistan has OBL and here he is" kinda lessens the blow rather then "We send 2 dozen SEALs and when we raided the home of someone completely innocent.

[Guest American Woman]

I think it would be a bit hard to hide it if they didn't kill OBL, since if OBL was still alive he could put out a video saying "uh, hi there, i'm still alive!".

And as I've said before, his family members who were living with him there, and captured, might just blow the whistle.

[Moonlight Graham]

And as I've said before, his family members who were living with him there, and captured, might just blow the whistle.

But would anyone believe them (besides the conspiracy theorists) once the government spin-machine tries to legitimize them? They would have to have proof to show, but even then...

[Moonlight Graham]

I think his issue was more because they had to essentially "invade" Pakistan. If OBL was not there it would be hard to explain why they were there. Saying "Pakistan has OBL and here he is" kinda lessens the blow rather then "We send 2 dozen SEALs and when we raided the home of someone completely innocent.

I think they must have known some kind of al-Qaeda-linked activity and personnel were inside the compound. They didn't have hard evidence like a photo/video/piece of mail that showed OBL living there, but probably a good deal of evidence came together to point to him highly likely being there. Maybe they knew of some of his wives living there, and/or they intercepted communications going to the building that would point to a high-level al-Qaeda living there.

It's like having a photo of your friends and someone is cut out of it. You obviously can't see the identity of the missing person, but based on the other people in the photo, the location, the activity, and date etc. you can make a solid educated guess of who that missing person is.

[Signals.Cpl]

I think they must have known some kind of al-Qaeda-linked activity and personnel were inside the compound. They didn't have hard evidence like a photo/video/piece of mail that showed OBL living there, but probably a good deal of evidence came together to point to him highly likely being there. Maybe they knew of some of his wives living there, and/or they intercepted communications going to the building that would point to a high-level al-Qaeda living there.

It's like having a photo of your friends and someone is cut out of it. You obviously can't see the identity of the missing person, but based on the other people in the photo, the location, the activity, and date etc. you can make a solid educated guess of who that missing person is.

Thats the thing though, if you don't get the target Pakistan can spin it anyway they want. From what I have seen about this they had a pretty good idea it was him inside but going in to Pakistan on the down low is not something they wanted to do without a good reason.

[bush_cheney2004]

Peter Bergen's new book Manhunt treats the topic very well over the entire ten years. Sec'y Gates comes off as more cautious and a no vote until convinced by others that the reward outweighed the risk. What the US did not want was a repeat of the Iranian Eagle Claw disaster because of disabled rotary winged aircraft, so this time the US had another complete airlift unit on standby to aid in recovery/egress. And it was needed....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/manhunt-the-ten-year-search-for-bin-laden-from-911-to-abbottabad-by-peter-l-bergen/2012/05/04/gIQAyCYV1T_story.html

[Topaz]

I guess we'll have to wait and see if the US deep sea treasure seeker, goes down into the sea and find his body.

[GostHacked]

Peter Bergen's new book Manhunt treats the topic very well over the entire ten years. Sec'y Gates comes off as more cautious and a no vote until convinced by others that the reward outweighed the risk. What the US did not want was a repeat of the Iranian Eagle Claw disaster because of disabled rotary winged aircraft, so this time the US had another complete airlift unit on standby to aid in recovery/egress. And it was needed....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/manhunt-the-ten-year-search-for-bin-laden-from-911-to-abbottabad-by-peter-l-bergen/2012/05/04/gIQAyCYV1T_story.html

Bergen has done what the CIA could not. He actually interviewed Osama on a couple occasions. A single news reporter seems to be better than the entire CIA.

[Michael Hardner]

The US would not want to lie about killing him if they had not done so. If he surfaced again, they would be damaged by that revelation.

[GostHacked]

The US would not want to lie about killing him if they had not done so. If he surfaced again, they would be damaged by that revelation.

I've seen several reports over the last 10 years in which Bin Laden was suspected of being dead. But there was no real confirmation. Most of the top tier of Al-queda, based on what I have seen, have been killed at least twice.

[Guest American Woman]

I've seen several reports over the last 10 years in which Bin Laden was suspected of being dead. But there was no real confirmation.

There was no confirmation for a reason - "suspected" and "known" are two different things. It was known that he was killed in Pakistan, which is why the reports said that he was killed, not that he was suspected of being dead.

[GostHacked]

There was no confirmation for a reason - "suspected" and "known" are two different things.

Obviously, since I am Canadian, I would have a hard time understanding the difference between 'suspected' and 'known'. I am so happy we have such astute members on this board, not unlike yourself, to help me through this.

It was known that he was killed in Pakistan, which is why the reports said that he was killed, not that he was suspected of being dead.

Again, I thank you !!

[Guest American Woman]

Obviously, since I am Canadian, I would have a hard time understanding the difference between 'suspected' and 'known'. I am so happy we have such astute members on this board, not unlike yourself, to help me through this.

Good to know you recognize the difference; your previous response indicates otherwise.

[Michael Hardner]

I've seen several reports over the last 10 years in which Bin Laden was suspected of being dead. But there was no real confirmation. Most of the top tier of Al-queda, based on what I have seen, have been killed at least twice.

Since they had a body, did DNA testing, and put their relationship with Pakistan at risk to carry this out, the US Govt. identification of him carries more weight than these other reports.

[Guest American Woman]

Since they had a body, did DNA testing, and put their relationship with Pakistan at risk to carry this out, the US Govt. identification of him carries more weight than these other reports.

"[Those] other reports" didn't say he was killed, only that it was "suspected that he was dead." Something totally different. Those reports aren't comparable to a report saying that he was killed.

[bud]

Peter Bergen's new book Manhunt treats the topic very well over the entire ten years. Sec'y Gates comes off as more cautious and a no vote until convinced by others that the reward outweighed the risk. What the US did not want was a repeat of the Iranian Eagle Claw disaster because of disabled rotary winged aircraft, so this time the US had another complete airlift unit on standby to aid in recovery/egress. And it was needed....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/manhunt-the-ten-year-search-for-bin-laden-from-911-to-abbottabad-by-peter-l-bergen/2012/05/04/gIQAyCYV1T_story.html

i just read the book and it's amazing. it is so well researched. bergen's access to different sources and locations is incredible.

[Moonlight Graham]

i just read the book and it's amazing. it is so well researched. bergen's access to different sources and locations is incredible.

Sounds like a good book worth picking up.

I still haven't even read Decision Points yet.

[GostHacked]

Bergen did what the CIA could not, ... find him, and he actually interviewed Osama.

[GostHacked]

Interesting development....

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/05/23/pakistani-doctor-who-helped-us-in-bin-laden-raid-sentenced-to-prison/

DEVELOPING -- A Pakistani doctor who helped the U.S. track down Usama bin Laden was convicted of high treason Wednesday and sentenced to 33 years in prison, officials said, a verdict that is likely to further strain the country's relationship with Washington.

Shakil Afridi ran a vaccination program for the CIA to collect DNA and verify bin Laden's presence at the compound in the town of Abbottabad where U.S. commandos killed the Al Qaeda chief last May. The operation outraged Pakistani officials because they were not told about it beforehand.

Senior U.S. officials have called for Afridi to be released, saying his work served Pakistani and American interests. His conviction comes at a sensitive time because the U.S. is already frustrated by Pakistan's refusal to reopen NATO supply routes to Afghanistan. The supply routes were closed six months ago in retaliation for American airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

Treason for helping out the US get a terrorist. There is a reason the USA did this all on the hush hush. The US probably could not get Pakistan on board with a raid like this. Something about sovereignty of the nation I am guessing.

[Guest Manny]

Treason for helping out the US get a terrorist. There is a reason the USA did this all on the hush hush. The US probably could not get Pakistan on board with a raid like this. Something about sovereignty of the nation I am guessing.

He got 33 years for helping the United States get the top terrorist in the world. There was a 25M dollar reward for bin Laden, or something like that. Now he's vilified by his own people. Even if they let him out of prison, drop the charges, he'd probably be killed as a traitor.

The guy should have been a hero yet clearly they are making a statement about their true alliances. What kind of an ally is this?

The same article mentions that US gives billions in aid to Pakistan. US taxpayers, you fund this garbage. But the inconsistency is lost on the vast majority of the public, and politicians have little to say. Because, their hands are tied by the iniquity of their own actions.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The same article mentions that US gives billions in aid to Pakistan. US taxpayers, you fund this garbage. But the inconsistency is lost on the vast majority of the public, and politicians have little to say. Because, their hands are tied by the iniquity of their own actions.

Don't worry about it..."US taxpayers" also pay for the lion's share of NORAD, NATO, and about 22% of the UN operating budget. Let us know when Canada and other nations want to pay more.

[Moonlight Graham]

Shakil Afridi ran a vaccination program for the CIA to collect DNA and verify bin Laden's presence at the compound in the town of Abbottabad where U.S. commandos killed the Al Qaeda chief last May.

Great, does this mean that getting a flu shot means the Canadian government secretly has my DNA too? Conspiracy theory!

[GostHacked]

Great, does this mean that getting a flu shot means the Canadian government secretly has my DNA too? Conspiracy theory!

CODIS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_DNA_Index_System

Privacy concerns

The CODIS database originally was primarily used to collect DNA of convicted sex offenders. Over time, this has expanded. Currently all fifty states have mandatory DNA collection from certain felony offenses such as sexual assault and homicide, and 47 states collect DNA from all convicted felons.[citation needed] Other states have gone further in collecting DNA samples from juveniles and all suspects arrested. In California, as a result of Proposition 69 in 2004, all suspects arrested for a felony, as well as some individuals convicted of misdemeanors, will have their DNA collected starting in 2009. In addition to this, all members of the US Armed Services who are convicted at a Special court martial and above are ordered to provide DNA samples, even if their crime has no civilian equivalent (for example adultery).

Currently, the ACLU is concerned with the increased use of collecting DNA from arrested suspects rather than DNA testing for convicted felons. Along with the ACLU, civil libertarians oppose the use of a DNA database for privacy concerns as well as possible institutionalized discrimination policies in collection.

DNA has been collected through the police from convicted criminals. Not sure what information is out there regarding collecting DNA via vaccines, but I would not doubt it happens. Remember the government would like as much info on you as they can.

So the above is in the USA, but you don't even need to be convicted of a crime, just detained (possibly not even an official arrest). Who knows what kind of information is being collected at hospitals and other places.