F-35 does not qualify as 5th gen fighter?

[cybercoma]

I haven't been paying attention to these discussions about specs because it really doesn't interest me. People keep saying it's the only 5th gen fighter. According to the link below, it seems it may not qualify as 5th gen. Could someone that understands these specs and things explain what is being argued here? http://t.co/g4goi8i9

[Guest Derek L]

Another F-35 topic?……….APA and Mr Goon are a bunch of wankers, and with the criteria that I’ve made up on a Tim Horton‘s napkin, with 1 = William Ashley and 10 = a JSF partner’s military, I rank APA at 3, one above popular teenage video game sites………

[punked]

I haven't been paying attention to these discussions about specs because it really doesn't interest me. People keep saying it's the only 5th gen fighter. According to the link below, it seems it may not qualify as 5th gen. Could someone that understands these specs and things explain what is being argued here? http://t.co/g4goi8i9

Basically what it is saying as far as I can figure, is because the F-35 is trying to be all things to all countries it has lost a lot of what makes a 5th generation fighter a 5th generation fighter. This doesn't matter though because when anyone says fighter generation fighter all they are saying is "A fighter that has stealth and is run by computer programs". There is no true definition of fifth generation fighter though that is just a term used as spin to make it sounds better.

[cybercoma]

Basically what it is saying as far as I can figure, is because the F-35 is trying to be all things to all countries it has lost a lot of what makes a 5th generation fighter a 5th generation fighter. This doesn't matter though because when anyone says fighter generation fighter all they are saying is "A fighter that has stealth and is run by computer programs". There is no true definition of fifth generation fighter though that is just a term used as spin to make it sounds better.

So then the F35 isn't the only option?

[capricorn]

We could continue flying the CF-18s until 2030 then join in the development of the sixth generation fighter.

[Smallc]

There is no true definition of fifth generation fighter though that is just a term used as spin to make it sounds better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_jet_fighter#Common_design_elements

Or, there is.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... There is no true definition of fifth generation fighter though that is just a term used as spin to make it sounds better.

I thought it meant any expensive aircraft that some Canadians refuse to pay for.

[waldo]

F-35 Reality Check Ten Years On -- Part 1: ‘Fifth-Generation’ and Other Myths

Bottom line: “Fifth-gen capabilities” are a myth

All of the above demonstrates quite clearly that, based on the same definition as used by the F-35’s manufacturer, its operators and objective outside observers, the “fifth-generation” capabilities claimed for the aircraft amount to little more than what is already operational today.

Only its “stealth” design features offer a real “plus” over previous-generation aircraft, but “stealth” only works in some circumstances, and only against some types of radar sensors, so the F-35 is a very long way from being the nearly invisible as its backers claim or imply, capitalizing on policitians’ and the public’s ignorance of most matters technical.

The F-35’s Distributed Aperture System would give pilots a real plus over most existing aircraft in terms of situational awareness, but if – and only if – its data fusion works, and if the completed picture can be presented in a way pilots can assimilate and understand.

The fact is that, today, after ten years and $50 billion, the F-35 flight test program has demonstrated none of its over-hyped “fifth-generation” capabilities, which are in any case incremental improvements over existing capabilities rather than the revolutionary quantum leaps they are made out to be.

[Guest Derek L]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/135080/f_35-reality-check-10-years-on-%28part-1%29.html

-- Stealth: the F-35’s low radar cross-section and radar-absorbent surface coatings (i.e., paint) make it more difficult to detect by radar, but they do not make it invisible. In any case, detection by radar matters less and less because by switching on its radar a fighter becomes as visible as someone turning on a flashlight in a dark room.

So the preferred detection sensors are optical, like Infra-Red Scan and Track (IRST), and in this case the large and very hot exhaust plume of the F-35’s 45,000-lb thrust engine is as visible as a blowtorch in the same dark room.

[TheNewTeddy]

Shame on the NDP and Liberals for using the entire UK Parliament just to embarrass Harper

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18008171

edit

Australia

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120503/DEFREG03/305030001/Australia-Delays-F-35-Order-by-2-Years

Norway

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/further-dramatic-f-35-cost-increases-could-force-norway-to-reconsider-programme-370856/

It's almost as if the F-35 is just a bad plane, and Harper made a stupid political decision to back it. Its almost as if the debate has nothing to do with weather or not you like Harper.

...Almost. Thankfully the right-wingers are here to tell us what's what

Edited May 10, 2012 by TheNewTeddy

[cybercoma]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/135080/f_35-reality-check-10-years-on-%28part-1%29.html

Why is that funny?

[DogOnPorch]

Why is that funny?

These are tactics that have been in use since Viet-Nam. See: Wild Weasel, for example. This is kind of like describing a computer like this.

[cybercoma]

...Almost. Thankfully the right-wingers are here to tell us what's what

It's not really the entire right-wing here. Smallc has shown apprehensive support, while posters like Derek L has given it unreserved support, from which even the Conservatives themselves have backed away.

[DogOnPorch]

It's not really the entire right-wing here. Smallc has shown apprehensive support, while posters like Derek L has given it unreserved support, from which even the Conservatives themselves have backed away.

...and typically, you equate flight with politics. Again, the Sopwith Camel is a proven design.

[Smallc]

I'm right wing now?

[waldo]

Why is that funny?

it's only make believe funny in Maverick and Goose's world... as I'm sure you're aware, there are plenty of sources out there that question stealth capabilities, in general, regardless of plane... but critically target the JSFail F-35 simply because of it's related design flaws. As the linked article highlights, it's simply another convenient "bingo buzzword" for politicians to grab onto... and for Maverick and Goose to gush over. So, it's much easier for the boys to, as they do, guffaw and hand-wave... rather than actually address criticism. It's what they do... it's what they're about. Of course, one of the key points glossed right on over by the boys:

The fact is that, today, after ten years and $50 billion, the F-35 flight test program has

demonstrated none of its over-hyped “fifth-generation” capabilities

, which are in any case incremental improvements over existing capabilities rather than the revolutionary quantum leaps they are made out to be.

there's only stealth in their imaginary world!

[cybercoma]

I'm right wing now?

Yes you are.

[Smallc]

Yes you are.

I see. Does that make you the great political orientation decision maker? Because on any political compass, I come out almost squarely in the middle....often a bit to the left. I guess I must be right wing though.

[Smallc]

Though the political compass test is somewhat flawed, I fall pretty close to where Ghandi does. In a perfect world, I'l pretty left wing...but I have to live in this world, and that means being practical and pragmatic. This topic for example. I support the military and by extension this purchase (this plane is 5th generation, so calm down)....of course a perfect world wouldn't have any militaries (or countries, for that matter). This isn't a perfect world. This is a human world.

[TheNewTeddy]

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/blog-html/leftvright_world.html

[Smallc]

As if that somehow describes everything....because it's always so black and white.

[Moonbox]

I think he was joking smallc. It is a pretty funny picture.

At any rate, the whole idea of "5th generation" is pretty ridiculous in the first place. As mentioned already, it's just a buzzword, and what it actually means was pretty arbitrary in the first place. It's sufficient, I think, simply to say the aircraft is vastly superior to legacy aircraft from the 1970's and 80's, and likely quite a bit superior to contemporary modern aircraft like the Typhoon and Super Hornet in most regards as well.

[TheNewTeddy]

Technically, it's red and blue.

However the issue here, from where I sit, is that somehow, if you think the F-35 is a bad plane, you are anti-Harper. The plane can not just be bad.

[Moonbox]

I've expressed in other threads relating to it that I think the F-35 is the biggest boondoggle in American procurement history. It was SUPPOSED to be the replacement for the F-16, which was a relatively cheap, lightweight fighter that could be produced in large numbers and satisfy all sorts of different needs. Instead, it's turning out to be every bit as expensive as the F-22, which by almost all accounts is a far superior plane, and which was cancelled because it was too expensive.

Odd.

[Guest Peeves]

So then the F35 isn't the only option?

Stealth capability seems the issue in definition.

Still the F35 fails our needs on many fronts. It can been 'seen', it costs are far too high for the plus factors.

And as planes go, and they do, it will be obsolete in the none too distant future.

It's a white elephant.