Who is to blame for the EU economic woes ?

[Guest Peeves]

What pushed them to near bankruptcy?

Early retirement, pensions, Social security umbrella... benefits? Political malfeasance?

Capitalism, Socialism?

All of the above?

[Shakeyhands]

Bush.

[Michael Hardner]

What pushed them to near bankruptcy?

Early retirement, pensions, Social security umbrella... benefits? Political malfeasance?

Capitalism, Socialism?

All of the above?

Why is anybody bankrupt ? They spent money they didn't have maybe ?

Blame seems like a charmless game to play; after the party ends who wants to engage in accusatory accounting ? Maybe it's better to just clean up, and reminisce about the great guests who dropped by when things were happier ?

[Michael Hardner]

The thing I do like about this crash and depression is that it's more focussed on identity issues: loss of faith, faded national glory, embarrassment. I mean, no economic crash generates celebration - these are serious times - but it seems to me that things will turn around before widespread starvation or world wars break out. (Don't listen to the doomsayers such as Celente or Alex Jones. They are doom merchants, not objective analysts of our times.)

If we make it through to the other side, then that's something to be grateful for, and reflects true human progress.

[GostHacked]

Why is anybody bankrupt ? They spent money they didn't have maybe ?

Almost every country, technically can be classified as bankrupt. All countries spend more than the generated taxes from the people of that country. The debt has only gone higher and higher. If the debt has gone down, it's not significant enough to make a difference.Budgets always seem to get busted and the spending is always more than the budget allows. Where does that money come from?

All countries are spending money they don't have. More and more are relying on entities like the World Bank and the IMF (or in cases like Greece, borrows from the European Central Bank) ..... borrowing that money comes with a price called interest.

A country is never going to be able to pay down it's debt with the current system. It is designed to keep a country in debt. What county runs a surplus? What country on this planet has no debt?

Blame seems like a charmless game to play; after the party ends who wants to engage in accusatory accounting ? Maybe it's better to just clean up, and reminisce about the great guests who dropped by when things were happier ?

If we don't address the issue by blaming those in power who have brought us down this road, then we are going to continue down the path of debt. If you prefer to let these idiots run up the tab on your dime (because you don't like playing the blame game), then you are helping facilitate their crimes against yourself.

Follow the money, and place the blame where it should be. They have no problems with placing blame on you for their idiocy, so why would not return the favour?

[-TSS-]

Some people say the euro was designed to fail from the outset. It was foolish in the first place to make believe that there can be an economic union going as far as there being a single currency but there not being a political union going as far. Some people relied on this and are now advocating more and more powers to the EU-level to interfere. In other words, in their opinion, the reasons for the economic woes was not too much EU but too little EU.

[Michael Hardner]

Almost every country, technically can be classified as bankrupt. All countries spend more than the generated taxes from the people of that country. The debt has only gone higher and higher. If the debt has gone down, it's not significant enough to make a difference.Budgets always seem to get busted and the spending is always more than the budget allows. Where does that money come from?

Debt as a % of GDP fluctuates, just like most peoples' debt.

If we don't address the issue by blaming those in power who have brought us down this road, then we are going to continue down the path of debt. If you prefer to let these idiots run up the tab on your dime (because you don't like playing the blame game), then you are helping facilitate their crimes against yourself.

These "idiots" are just doing what the voters want them to. For a brief time in the 1990s, voters started to care about deficits and guess what happened ?

Our leaders aren't any smarter than we are, or dumber really... so calling them idiots is holding up a mirror in the end.

Follow the money, and place the blame where it should be. They have no problems with placing blame on you for their idiocy, so why would not return the favour?

This is a fallacy of fatalism. "If anybody does anything wrong why should anybody do anything right ?"

I'm sure you can see where this leads.

[Topaz]

Good question, so I goggle that question and came up with the US, which I also heard on a program. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/business-tech/debt-crisis/120126/euro-crisis-american-conspiracy

[GostHacked]

Debt as a % of GDP fluctuates, just like most peoples' debt.

Most people have a plan and work hard to eliminate that debt. Most people have a plan. Many get into trouble by not following it. Yes I will say some people get the short end of the stick due to unforeseen events, and you cannot really blame those people who are unfortunate to get caught up into those situations.

These "idiots" are just doing what the voters want them to. For a brief time in the 1990s, voters started to care about deficits and guess what happened ?

The idiots don't understand that all their demands also cost money, which eventually comes from them in forms of taxes. But corruption and other factors mean that the costs will most always certainly go over budget.

Our leaders aren't any smarter than we are, or dumber really... so calling them idiots is holding up a mirror in the end.

I'd be happy to call myself the idiot if we really had smart people in government. Until then, keep your mirror if the illusion suits you. One reason we elect them is because we hope they are better than us. We hope and trust these people to make the big decisions. We hope they have our best interests in mind, but time and time again we see the elements of corruption taking down the whole process which results in the public losing confidence in the process and the government as a whole.

This is a fallacy of fatalism. "If anybody does anything wrong why should anybody do anything right ?"

Getting to the bottom of corruption (and that is what we are really dealing with here) to me does not sound like fatalism. And you are not understanding what I am saying. The money goes somewhere. You can track every penny you spend with your debit card and online banking, why can't the government track every transaction the same way? You do want to follow the money, because you will find your criminals, and then you can put the blame rightly so on those who deserve it.

I'm sure you can see where this leads.

Yeah I guess, 'getting to the bottom of this' mentality is really life threatening, only if you don't get to the bottom of this.

[fellowtraveller]

What pushed them to near bankruptcy?

the math does not work on a very big scale.

I see the EU as being a tradeoff, a giant social engineering gamble.

On one side the wealthy countries of north and west Europe know they have to somehow compete with global economic juggernauts like China/emerging Asian economies/USA and .... they cannot compete. On the other side are pretty big markets right next door in eastern and souithern Europe who want the deluxe social contract enjoyed by the north/west. The tradeoff: shared social contract vs access to captive markets. But..... the cost of that contract means poorer countries get access to big and very cheap credit lines enjoyed by the rich Euros and of course they borrow far too much and move far too fast.....

In the end, Germany emerges as the only superpower in Europe and they will dominate the EU in whatever form it takes in the near future.

Have we seen this movie before?

Don't mention ze war.

[Michael Hardner]

Getting to the bottom of corruption (and that is what we are really dealing with here) to me does not sound like fatalism. And you are not understanding what I am saying. The money goes somewhere. You can track every penny you spend with your debit card and online banking, why can't the government track every transaction the same way? You do want to follow the money, because you will find your criminals, and then you can put the blame rightly so on those who deserve it.

Your overly moral tone indicates that you are putting the blame in the wrong place - it's not corruption, just banal and mundane matters such as attention span that makes these thing work as they do.

[Jack Weber]

the math does not work on a very big scale.

I see the EU as being a tradeoff, a giant social engineering gamble.

On one side the wealthy countries of north and west Europe know they have to somehow compete with global economic juggernauts like China/emerging Asian economies/USA and .... they cannot compete. On the other side are pretty big markets right next door in eastern and souithern Europe who want the deluxe social contract enjoyed by the north/west. The tradeoff: shared social contract vs access to captive markets. But..... the cost of that contract means poorer countries get access to big and very cheap credit lines enjoyed by the rich Euros and of course they borrow far too much and move far too fast.....

In the end, Germany emerges as the only superpower in Europe and they will dominate the EU in whatever form it takes in the near future.

Have we seen this movie before?

Don't mention ze war.

There's no supremacy like Teutonic supremacy...But for close to 20 EXTREMELY bad years...

Been that way since 1860...

Meet the new boss...Same as the old boss!!!

Vater Deutschland!!!

[bush_cheney2004]

Good question, so I goggle that question and came up with the US, which I also heard on a program.

That's OK...many of those Euro deadbeats never fully repaid loans from the USA after WWII (Marshall Plan).

[fellowtraveller]

Vater Deutschland!!!

Should Polish border guards be getting nervous? Time to reinforce the Maginot Line?

[Wild Bill]

I'm rather surprised! I truly thought the first reply in this thread would have blamed it all on Steven Harper, possibly adding a bit of Mike Harris to the mix.

[dre]

What pushed them to near bankruptcy?

Early retirement, pensions, Social security umbrella... benefits? Political malfeasance?

Capitalism, Socialism?

All of the above?

The main problem is the eurozone itself. Arbitrarily putting vastly different economies into a currency union is an extremely bad idea. It meant the interest rates were much lower in many european countries than they should have been. How can a country tackle debt when it no longer controls its interest rates, and currency?

The European Union needs to follow the Soviet Union into extinction. The European Parliament needs to be abolished, along with the European Central Bank.