F-35 Purchase

[Guest Derek L]

Back to the F-35, about a month ago we were talking about the F-35’s Distributed Aperture System combined with the Active Electronically Scanned Array radar and the added capabilities this would afford not only the individual F-35, but the network-centric warfare capabilities it will deliver to battlefield commanders in real-time……….Combined with the Multifunction Advanced Data Link, this capability will enable a F-35 to not only track an ICBM launch, but share tracking data in real-time with an AEGIS Destroyer/Cruiser to launch ICBM interceptors (SM-6s) but also forward target locations to cruise missile armed subs, a B-2 filled with JDAMs or a 155mm Howitzer loaded with an Excalibur……….

Northrop released test footage today from a couple of months back of the F-35’s radar tracking 5 theatre ballistic missiles:

Northrop Grumman's F-35 DAS and Radar Demonstrate Ability to Detect, Track, Target Ballistic Missiles

Edited June 27, 2012 by Derek L

[DogOnPorch]

That's pretty darn sweet stuff, Derek. That was shot at the other Cape Canaveral, Wallops Island.

[Guest Derek L]

That's pretty darn sweet stuff, Derek. That was shot at the other Cape Canaveral, Wallops Island.

Sure beats that little computer animation they had up

Good timing too, what with live weapons testing starting later this summer

[bush_cheney2004]

Back to the F-35,....

Sweet...this can be retrofitted to the F-22. Oooops...I mean...what a waste of money when so many poor heroin addicts need clean needles and a place to sleep.

[Guest Derek L]

Sweet...this can be retrofitted to the F-22. Oooops...I mean...what a waste of money when so many poor heroin addicts need clean needles and a place to sleep.

Not only that, but notice this line from the press release:

Leavitt added that Northrop Grumman is currently exploring how the existing DAS technology could assist in several additional mission areas, including irregular warfare operations.

Insurgent launched mortars, artillery and unguided rockets………Imagine a CAS platform that responds before the guys on the ground know they need it…….

[DogOnPorch]

Sure beats that little computer animation they had up

Good timing too, what with live weapons testing starting later this summer

Yes. But, it is no doubt full of fake Chinese chips that will suddenly lock onto stray WalMart shopping carts across the land.

[Guest Derek L]

Yes. But, it is no doubt full of fake Chinese chips that will suddenly lock onto stray WalMart shopping carts across the land.

Perhaps , but it might get lucky and help out everything from SM-6 to a Centurion/C-RAM when not killing women and children

Edited June 27, 2012 by Derek L

[DogOnPorch]

Not only that, but notice this line from the press release:

Insurgent launched mortars, artillery and unguided rockets………Imagine a CAS platform that responds before the guys on the ground know they need it…….

The ultimate in Command Control. In many ways it's the exact opposite system to many of the West's potential opponents who'd never give this sort of freedom to all levels of command.

[DogOnPorch]

Intense vid.

[Guest Derek L]

The ultimate in Command Control. In many ways it's the exact opposite system to many of the West's potential opponents who'd never give this sort of freedom to all levels of command.

It defiantly speaks volumes to the advancements in technology………Not only would a CAP flight of F-35C over a Carrier battlegroup provide conventional air defence via intercepts, but also launch warning, tracking and engagement of anti-ship missiles, be they surface, sub-surface or air launched, all without the AEGIS escorts illuminating……….Not only could it direct the defence, but also aide in launching a Standard/Harpoon/ASROC response…..

[DogOnPorch]

It defiantly speaks volumes to the advancements in technology………Not only would a CAP flight of F-35C over a Carrier battlegroup provide conventional air defence via intercepts, but also launch warning, tracking and engagement of anti-ship missiles, be they surface, sub-surface or air launched, all without the AEGIS escorts illuminating……….Not only could it direct the defence, but also aide in launching a Standard/Harpoon/ASROC response…..

This is why I go yawn when somebody says they only made 12 of these or some similar number. It's all one big weapon + aiming device. Eventually, it will be tied into everything including the company coffee maker.

[waldo]

Back to the F-35, about a month ago we were talking about the F-35’s Distributed Aperture System combined with the Active Electronically Scanned Array radar and the added capabilities this would afford not only the individual F-35, but the network-centric warfare capabilities it will deliver to battlefield commanders in real-time……….Combined with the Multifunction Advanced Data Link, this capability will enable a F-35 to not only track an ICBM launch, but share tracking data in real-time with an AEGIS Destroyer/Cruiser to launch ICBM interceptors (SM-6s) but also forward target locations to cruise missile armed subs, a B-2 filled with JDAMs or a 155mm Howitzer loaded with an Excalibur……….

from the most recent, just weeks old, U.S. Government Accountability Office report:

JSF’s mission systems

: provide combat effectiveness through next generation sensors with fused information from on-board and off-board systems (i.e. Electronic Warfare, Communication Navigation Identification, Electro-Optical Target System, Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System, Radar, and Data Links).

JSF’s mission systems and logistics systems are critical to realizing the operational and support capabilities expected by the warfighter, but

the hardware and software for these systems are immature and unproven at this time. For example, only 4 percent of mission systems requirements planned in system development and demonstration have been verified. Significant learning and development remains before the program can demonstrate mature mission systems software and hardware, not expected until block 3.0 is delivered in 2015. The program has experienced significant challenges developing and integrating mission systems software. Mission systems hardware has also experienced several technical challenges, including problems with the radar, integrated processor, communication and navigation equipment, and electronic warfare capabilities

.

Good timing too, what with live weapons testing starting later this summer

later this summer? Really? Doesn't seem to jive with the above quote from the U.S. GAO report... 'block 3... 2015'... presuming on, as stated, 'significant learning and development'. In any case, good on Northrop Grumman trying to offset all that negative press - I expect there's a group of loyal devotees just waiting to lap it up, hey?

[dre]

You are suggesting we put off replacing the jets until we have 'saved' the entire purchase price? But we can't save anything until we have a balanced budget, and then a surplus. So this really doesn't make any sense. I have the disposable income to save up. This country does not.

Thats basically my point. Most western countries are approaching some kind of debt crisis, and when they hit it, its going to hit us as well.

You know what the very WORST thing we could do for our national defense would be? It would be to make poor fiscal decisions. At the end of the day somebody has to pick up a shovel, or build a house, or work at a retailer, in order for us to fund national defense. Our economy is the engine that drives our military and everything else.

This is a MEGA PURCHASE by Canadian standards... at a time when the government cant even afford to pay its own employees without borrowing money, and at a time where we face a real risk of a long and serious recession, and at a time where the biggest threats we face cant be mitigated by fancy planes.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... In any case, good on Northrop Grumman trying to offset all that negative press - I expect there's a group of loyal devotees just waiting to lap it up, hey?

Millions of them...union labor too.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is a MEGA PURCHASE by Canadian standards...

Really? A "MEGA PURCHASE"? Hard to believe when recurring annual costs for the CBC exceeds $1 billion.

[dre]

Really? A "MEGA PURCHASE"? Hard to believe when recurring annual costs for the CBC exceeds $1 billion.

Yes really. I dont remember a larger government expenditure ever in history. I could be wrong...

[waldo]

not only did Harper Conservatives renege on their promise to bring forward an independent review within the promised time period... it now appears the review will be nothing more than another piece of suspect window-dressing:

Outside experts called in to verify reliability of F-35 stealth fighter costs to be denied original information provided to DND

F-35 stealth fighter jets’ terms of independent review vindicate AG; winning firm must include all lifetime costs

Harper Conservatives To Spend Up to $5 Million To Find Out The Cost of F-35... uhhh... apparently, PBO Kevin Page is 'persona non grata' - go figure!

Military officers told Defence Watch that the latest news the government is going to spend between $1 million and $5 million to hire an outside auditing firm to figure out the true cost of the proposed F-35 purchase is further evidence of how screwed up the project is.

Treasury Board says it requires the services of a team of auditors to review the Department of National Defence’s “acquisition and sustainment project assumptions with respect to the estimated costs for next generation fighter jet.”

Or as one military officer stated: “It’s an admission that DND’s numbers can’t be trusted and that we don’t actually know what the F-35 will cost us.”

Bids from the auditing firms are to be in by July 9.

This process, however, has already come under fire. Opposition MPs are saying that spending $5 million on outside auditors is a waste of money when Parliament has its own competent and able auditor, Kevin Page.

Page already did an accounting of the F-35 numbers,

although departments refused to provide him with all the data

. MPs say give him all the data and let him do his job.

“That would be truly independent, and truly would apply expertise to this exercise,” NDP MP Matthew Kellway told The Hill Times newspaper on Monday. “They should go to Page and they should provide him with all the information for him to do his job as he is mandated to do.”

Meanwhile, other concerns are mounting about the government’s plan to hire an outside accounting firm.

Whatever firm wins the contract will not be allowed to question the figures presented, but rather will be called upon to judge whether the Defence Department followed correct procedures in determining how the cost estimates were arrived at.

The government says the external assessment will ensure proper procedures were followed, but Liberal defence critic John McKay alleged the government and National Defence are simply trying to set up a whitewash.

“These guys have suffered a huge blow to their credibility on the specific aspect on the F-35,” he said.

“They’re setting up a scenario where they can legitimately stand up in question period and say, ‘Well look, KPMG says we can do this all the time, so we didn’t mislead you in the first place.’”

[Guest Derek L]

from the most recent, just weeks old, U.S. Government Accountability Office report:

later this summer? Really? Doesn't seem to jive with the above quote from the U.S. GAO report... 'block 3... 2015'... presuming on, as stated, 'significant learning and development'. In any case, good on Northrop Grumman trying to offset all that negative press - I expect there's a group of loyal devotees just waiting to lap it up, hey?

It doesn’t jive? That’s because you don’t understand what it’s saying

F-35 Lightning II Program

On June 14, F-35B Joint Strike Fighter test aircraft BF-2

completed the first test flight for the short takeoff and vertical

landing variant with an asymmetric weapons load. Cmdr. Eric

Buus flew BF-2 with an AIM-9X Sidewinder inert missile on the

starboard pylon, a centerline 25 mm gun pod, and a GBU-32 and

AIM-120 in the starboard weapon bay. Significant weapons

testing for the F-35B and F-35C variants is in progress, including

fit checks, captive carriage environment characterization, and pit

drops. Aerial weapons separation testing is scheduled for this

summer.

The F-35B is the variant of the Joint Strike Fighter for the U.S.

Marine Corps, capable of short take-offs and vertical landings for

use on amphibious ships or expeditionary airfields to provide air

power to the Marine Air-Ground Task Force. The F-35B is

undergoing test and evaluation at NAS Patuxent River prior to

delivery to the fleet.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes really. I dont remember a larger government expenditure ever in history. I could be wrong...

Depends on how you count....clearly Canada is blowing a lot more money on other projects and programs:

http://renewcanada.net/2012/the-top-100-projects-of-2012/

[Guest Derek L]

Depends on how you count....clearly Canada is blowing a lot more money on other projects and programs:

http://renewcanada.net/2012/the-top-100-projects-of-2012/

Indeed, what will the operating costs of the CBC be out to 2050? Be sure to include through life costs like pensions etc

[waldo]

Back to the F-35, about a month ago we were talking about the F-35’s Distributed Aperture System combined with the Active Electronically Scanned Array radar and the added capabilities this would afford not only the individual F-35, but the network-centric warfare capabilities it will deliver to battlefield commanders in real-time……….Combined with the Multifunction Advanced Data Link, this capability will enable a F-35 to not only track an ICBM launch, but share tracking data in real-time with an AEGIS Destroyer/Cruiser to launch ICBM interceptors (SM-6s) but also forward target locations to cruise missile armed subs, a B-2 filled with JDAMs or a 155mm Howitzer loaded with an Excalibur……….

from the most recent, just weeks old, U.S. Government Accountability Office report:

JSF’s mission systems

: provide combat effectiveness through next generation sensors with fused information from on-board and off-board systems (i.e. Electronic Warfare, Communication Navigation Identification, Electro-Optical Target System, Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System, Radar, and Data Links).

JSF’s mission systems and logistics systems are critical to realizing the operational and support capabilities expected by the warfighter, but

the hardware and software for these systems are immature and unproven at this time. For example, only 4 percent of mission systems requirements planned in system development and demonstration have been verified. Significant learning and development remains before the program can demonstrate mature mission systems software and hardware, not expected until block 3.0 is delivered in 2015. The program has experienced significant challenges developing and integrating mission systems software. Mission systems hardware has also experienced several technical challenges, including problems with the radar, integrated processor, communication and navigation equipment, and electronic warfare capabilities

.

Good timing too, what with live weapons testing starting later this summer

later this summer? Really? Doesn't seem to jive with the above quote from the U.S. GAO report... 'block 3... 2015'... presuming on, as stated, 'significant learning and development'. In any case, good on Northrop Grumman trying to offset all that negative press - I expect there's a group of loyal devotees just waiting to lap it up, hey?

It doesn’t jive? That’s because you don’t understand what it’s saying

F-35 Lightning II Program

full stop! You're embarrassing yourself... do you believe the U.S. GAO reports are just 'willy nilly' made up stuff, hey?

[Guest Derek L]

[/indent]

later this summer? Really? Doesn't seem to jive with the above quote from the U.S. GAO report... 'block 3... 2015'... presuming on, as stated, 'significant learning and development'. In any case, good on Northrop Grumman trying to offset all that negative press - I expect there's a group of loyal devotees just waiting to lap it up, hey?

full stop! You're embarrassing yourself... do you believe the U.S. GAO reports are just 'willy nilly' made up stuff, hey?

There's the release Waldo, pictures and all

edit to add........Do you think the military is making up stuff? Got ALCAN?

Edited June 27, 2012 by Derek L

[waldo]

full stop! You're embarrassing yourself... do you believe the U.S. GAO reports are just 'willy nilly' made up stuff, hey?

There's the release Waldo, pictures and all

edit to add........Do you think the military is making up stuff? Got ALCAN?

are you challenging the quoted extract from the U.S. GAO report?

from the most recent, just weeks old, U.S. Government Accountability Office report:

JSF’s mission systems

: provide combat effectiveness through next generation sensors with fused information from on-board and off-board systems (i.e. Electronic Warfare, Communication Navigation Identification, Electro-Optical Target System, Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System, Radar, and Data Links).

JSF’s mission systems and logistics systems are critical to realizing the operational and support capabilities expected by the warfighter, but

the hardware and software for these systems are immature and unproven at this time. For example, only 4 percent of mission systems requirements planned in system development and demonstration have been verified. Significant learning and development remains before the program can demonstrate mature mission systems software and hardware, not expected until block 3.0 is delivered in 2015. The program has experienced significant challenges developing and integrating mission systems software. Mission systems hardware has also experienced several technical challenges, including problems with the radar, integrated processor, communication and navigation equipment, and electronic warfare capabilities

.

[Guest Derek L]

are you challenging the quoted extract from the U.S. GAO report?

Are you challenging the specific quote from the Pentagon? Also, notice your quoted text doesn’t mention weapons in any regard………Waldo, you’re moving to olp1fan territory and I shall suspect that you’ll be collecting tolls under a bridge shortly.

[Moonbox]

Combined with the Multifunction Advanced Data Link, this capability will enable a F-35 to not only track an ICBM launch, but share tracking data in real-time with an AEGIS Destroyer/Cruiser to launch ICBM interceptors (SM-6s) but also forward target locations to cruise missile armed subs, a B-2 filled with JDAMs or a 155mm Howitzer loaded with an Excalibur……….

A couple of things...first, ICBM launches can be detected by satellite from outer space. Second, nobody needs $150M/unit recon planes. That's what drones are so good for.