F-35 Purchase

[punked]

The F-22 isn't grounded though.......

It was grounded for 6 months wasn't it? Also they have been mandated that all F-22 flights "remain within the proximity of potential landing locations" to ensure the ability to recover and land should a pilot run into "unanticipated physiological conditions." In the end they grounded it couldn't find the problem so they just let them fly anyway.

Edited June 26, 2012 by punked

[Guest Derek L]

It was grounded for 6 months wasn't it? Also they have been mandated that all F-22 flights "remain within the proximity of potential landing locations" to ensure the ability to recover and land should a pilot run into "unanticipated physiological conditions." In the end they grounded it couldn't find the problem so they just let them fly anyway.

No they have found the “problems”……….The DuPont Derm/Buro G-suits manufactured post 2003 that incorporated a newer fabric to facilitate with the usage of Night Vision equipment within the cockpit……Said new synthetic fibre “fails” under high G loading and killed an F-16 pilot last year near Las Vegas………..The F-22 pilots and aircraft are fully operational, with pre-2002 flight suits.

[punked]

No they have found the “problems”……….The DuPont Derm/Buro G-suits manufactured post 2003 that incorporated a newer fabric to facilitate with the usage of Night Vision equipment within the cockpit……Said new synthetic fibre “fails” under high G loading and killed an F-16 pilot last year near Las Vegas………..The F-22 pilots and aircraft are fully operational, with pre-2002 flight suits.

Yah maybe I'll take CNN over you my friend.

Air Force investigators believe a specialized flight suit could be partially responsible for some pilots experiencing a lack of oxygen while flying the F-22 fighter jet, according to a report by Air Force investigators.

Investigators are focusing on part of the suit, called the "Combat Edge," which hampers breathing and causes oxygen loss when combined with a physiological condition that collapses air sacs in the lungs, according to details of the report that were shared with Security Clearance........

Last month, Panetta mandated that all F-22 flights "remain within the proximity of potential landing locations" to ensure the ability to recover and land should a pilot run into "unanticipated physiological conditions."

That does not sound like they have found the problem at all but think they might have an idea what is causing it. This is why people don't believe you when you say things.

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/13/sources-flight-suit-could-be-cause-of-oxygen-loss-in-f-22-flights/?hpt=hp_t2

Meanwhile the guy who helped design the f16 says t could be the f22s skin.

http://www.newsherald.com/articles/force-103546-problems-air.html

Edited June 26, 2012 by punked

[Guest Derek L]

Yah maybe I'll take CNN over you my friend.

That does not sound like they have found the problem at all but think they might have an idea what is causing it. This is why people don't believe you when you say things.

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/13/sources-flight-suit-could-be-cause-of-oxygen-loss-in-f-22-flights/?hpt=hp_t2

And what did I say?

Google 2011 Nellis AFB F-16 crash investigation.......

[bush_cheney2004]

It was grounded for 6 months wasn't it? Also they have been mandated that all F-22 flights "remain within the proximity of potential landing locations" to ensure the ability to recover and land should a pilot run into "unanticipated physiological conditions." In the end they grounded it couldn't find the problem so they just let them fly anyway.

The pilots still have access to an emergency O2 bottle if the Honeywell OBOGS fails.

But this isn't about aircraft that Canada will never get anyway, but it is a swell diversion from the task at hand. The Americans will design, build, deploy, crash, scrap, or otherwise piss away more money and very expensive aircraft than Canada can dream of, so try to focus on replacing aging budget model CF-18's as cheaply as possible instead.

Edited June 26, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[punked]

And what did I say?

Google 2011 Nellis AFB F-16 crash investigation.......

You said they found the problem. They haven't, they have a hunch.

[Wild Bill]

You said they found the problem. They haven't, they have a hunch.

Punked, maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sure sounds like you expect a leading edge aircraft to be perfect in all respects with all bugs worked out not just as soon as it is in production but before that, while the prototypes are being tested.

More than that, you seem to expect that there should never be any need for such real world testing - that even the aircraft prototypes should be perfect as soon as the parts from the machinists' benches are first assembled into an airframe.

Or have I indeed misunderstood you?

[Guest Derek L]

You said they found the problem. They haven't, they have a hunch.

Uh-huh…….You can believe whom you wish, I really don’t give two shits, but the recent revelation has lead to reopening the investigations into several other recent crashes believed to be hypoxia related (An F-16 and Super Hornet) with the only binding ties between the three aircraft is the G-suits worn by the aircrew………As I mentioned, these problems will be accelerated from the flight profile flown by the F-22, hence greater problems effecting said fleet.

[punked]

Punked, maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sure sounds like you expect a leading edge aircraft to be perfect in all respects with all bugs worked out not just as soon as it is in production but before that, while the prototypes are being tested.

More than that, you seem to expect that there should never be any need for such real world testing - that even the aircraft prototypes should be perfect as soon as the parts from the machinists' benches are first assembled into an airframe.

Or have I indeed misunderstood you?

No but if spend this much money I expect the aircraft to 1) Not be grounded for 6 months and 2) Be able to fly away from the base with out fear they are going to drop out of the sky. I also expect it to be fixed before 60 minutes forces the air force to address problems. I don't think that is a lot to ask.

[punked]

Uh-huh…….You can believe whom you wish, I really don’t give two shits, but the recent revelation has lead to reopening the investigations into several other recent crashes believed to be hypoxia related (An F-16 and Super Hornet) with the only binding ties between the three aircraft is the G-suits worn by the aircrew………As I mentioned, these problems will be accelerated from the flight profile flown by the F-22, hence greater problems effecting said fleet.

I hope you are right and it is just the suit but right now there is some wishful thinking going on.

[bush_cheney2004]

No but if spend this much money....

But you didn't spend this much money....and never will.

[Guest Derek L]

I hope you are right and it is just the suit but right now there is some wishful thinking going on.

Not wishful thinking for DuPont……….The additional problem, facing not only American aircrews, but other air forces using the same suits, is that it’s a logistics nightmare trying to determine pre & post 2002 G-suits and will cost a fortune in both time and money to backtrack purchase orders and the issuing of said suits.

Some Lawyers will make a fortune in the months and years ahead……

[Moonbox]

Canada can do whatever the hell it wants to, but the F-35 program will not be canceled, just curtailed and stretched out.

Obviously. At this point, however, the program is ridiculously far off the original mark that it probably should be cancelled, and people knew that years ago. In the end putting all their eggs into this one basket seems to have been a mistake, and it's too late, too expensive and too embarrassing now to back out of it.

The F-22 program was not canceled per se....production was stopped at 187 units. The "program" continues to this day for spares and upgrades.

Yeah thanks. I know...

Or....not, since the flyway cost is still estimated to be about $75M.

Smallc, I usually find you're one of the more sane posters on this forum, but sometimes you really stick your head in the sand. Virtually nobody, aside from Harper and the Tories, are estimating a $75M flyaway cost. Defense analysts aren't, the Pentagon and DoD aren't, foreign governments aren't and anyone that can follow the numbers aren't. Get real.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Moonbox

[bush_cheney2004]

....In the end putting all their eggs into this one basket seems to have been a mistake, and it's too late, too expensive and too embarrassing now to back out of it.

In the end, the Americans and other buyers with firm contracts will have new stealthy strike fighters...and others won't. Billions more is also being spent on the next generation of tactical aircraft. Canada better start saving those pennies now.

Yeah thanks. I know...

Happy to point out the difference.

[DogOnPorch]

The Americans will design, build, deploy, crash, scrap, or otherwise piss away more money and very expensive aircraft than Canada can dream of, so try to focus on replacing aging budget model CF-18's as cheaply as possible instead.

And this Canadian thanks America for all the hard leg work. Arm work? All the work....

Wild Bill: Punked, maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sure sounds like you expect a leading edge aircraft to be perfect in all respects with all bugs worked out not just as soon as it is in production but before that, while the prototypes are being tested.

The B-58 Hustler went into service before it had ejection seats. The B-47A nose position ejected downward...can we say spinal injury? The F-104 had the glide path of a brick. The F-4 left huge black smoke trails in AB. The SR-71 pissed fuel onto the ramp like a teenager after 6 beers....it goes on and on.

[bush_cheney2004]

And this Canadian thanks America for all the hard leg work. Arm work? All the work....

De Nada!

....it goes on and on.

Yep....the YB-49 wasn't stable enough for a bombing run, but the B-2 Spirit sure as hell is!

Edited June 26, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

De Nada!

Yep....the YB-49 wasn't stable enough for a bombing run, but the B-2 Spirit sure as hell is!

Well at least we aren't like the Sovi...errr...Rooshins. The MiG-21 has a constant pitch-up once you get to half fuel tanks. I believe the rationalization was that the mission shouldn't last that long. Either that or the pilot.

Edited June 26, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[waldo]

Well at least we aren't like the Sovi...errr...Rooshins.

guys, guys... you seem to have forgotten - your jingo-porn thread is over...

here*

:

* note: this is not a... metaphor!

look, really... truly... I sympathize with your want to purposely distract from the failings of JSFail; however, why don't you move on... and post in an appropriate thread? As you've purposely done in the past, you've trashed previous F-35 threads with your derail efforts. Is this, once again, your aim/intent? Why not just say so?

[DogOnPorch]

Wouldn't it be swell if you knew what we were taking about? Remember...if you push forward on the stick you go DOWN...not UP.

[waldo]

Wouldn't it be swell if you knew what we were taking about? Remember...if you push forward on the stick you go DOWN...not UP.

you sir... are out of airspeed with full aft stick and a boot-full of rudder in an unrecoverable spin! Bazinga!

[DogOnPorch]

Apply opposite rudder, duh.

[Argus]

Id do the same thing you do around your house when you are considering a large purchase. First of all save up the money, and then once you have it shop around. The F-35 still may be the best plane for us, but we definately shouldnt commit to it at this point. I would watch and wait and see what develops, and start scraping and saving so that when it does come time to purchase something we dont have to borrow money to do it.

You are suggesting we put off replacing the jets until we have 'saved' the entire purchase price? But we can't save anything until we have a balanced budget, and then a surplus. So this really doesn't make any sense. I have the disposable income to save up. This country does not.

[Moonbox]

In the end, the Americans and other buyers with firm contracts will have new stealthy strike fighters...and others won't. Billions more is also being spent on the next generation of tactical aircraft.

Congratulations. You'll end up having spent probably 2-3x as much money as originally budgeted and have fewer planes than you originally projected. We'll probably be joining you too. I'll give you a high five when we get to the party...

[bush_cheney2004]

Congratulations. You'll end up having spent probably 2-3x as much money as originally budgeted and have fewer planes than you originally projected.

That's OK...the Wright Flyer cost a whopping $1,000.

[DogOnPorch]

That's OK...the Wright Flyer cost a whopping $1,000.

Ahhhh...a contender to the F-35 perhaps? It's in the right price range.