Guest Manny Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 Yet your response to negative incidents doesn't reflect those who read lots of news, who know about other incidents where people lives have been saved by deliberate decisions and acts by the troops. So no, that is not "the way the mind works:" it's the way the minds of some work, which confirms my observations regarding those who need to find fault with everything, and highlight only the negative. It's the way the mind of war works, I what I actually said. There's a big difference in the meaning of it. American Woman, listen what I say! Why does the media not report more of the good work that's being done in Afghanistan? It's only to the advantage of the profile of the war, so what's preventing them from doing it? There's no reason why they shouldn't do it. And yet, such reports are very few whether it be setting up a medical facility or building a new school. Or some such other good deeds, why do we rarely hear of it. Given that it's only in the best interest of the United States to win hearts and minds, on both sides of the world perhaps it's because, they truly are rare. I wonder how many other soldiers think he did the right thing, or think he was a fool to give his life for her. How many would take a bullet for someone in Afghanistan? Sorry but I doubt his selflessness is the norm, and that it's quite the opposite. Even among non-military people, this is the norm. Self preservation, let someone else die. It's pretty hard to sell a story like this as evidence of the good intentions of soldiers in a war theatre. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 Even among non-military people, this is the norm. Self preservation, let someone else die. It's pretty hard to sell a story like this as evidence of the good intentions of soldiers in a war theatre. Spoken like a true civilian. All soldiers are not created equal by country. Training matters. There's a world of difference between the average US/UK/Can/Aus/NZ trooper next to his or her enemy. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
stopstaaron Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 "U.S. wins hearts and minds" I disagree with this statement. U.S, NATO have not won the hearts and minds in Afghanistan. Quote Don't ban me bro. Oh behave, I'll behave. I'll be a good little boy.
Jack Weber Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 It's a good thing that everyone doesn't always look at the "historical" chance of something positive being accomplished or those events that "historically" should have failed, but didn't, wouldn't have been attempted in the first place. In the case of Afghanistan,it's akin to not looking at the history of ramming a nails into foreheads and thinking if you do it...Well,this time it won't hurt... What makes you think the US(NATO allies) will fair any better this time in Afghanistan,than: The Soviet Union The British Empire Alexander The Great ??? The "righteousness" of your cause??? Manifest Destiny??? (The last one is just hillarious... ) Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
stopstaaron Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 It is so typical for AW to think any country in the world would love NATO to control it Quote Don't ban me bro. Oh behave, I'll behave. I'll be a good little boy.
Guest Manny Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 Spoken like a true civilian. All soldiers are not created equal by country. Training matters. There's a world of difference between the average US/UK/Can/Aus/NZ trooper next to his or her enemy. How does training affect the three examples in the links I gave, those soldiers who drive over people in their cars? How many such heroes are there, compared to the ones who would have let her die, so they can go home and raise their own families? Habeus Corpus... Quote
DogOnPorch Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 How does training affect the three examples in the links I gave, those soldiers who drive over people in their cars? How many such heroes are there, compared to the ones who would have let her die, so they can go home and raise their own families? Habeus Corpus... Relativism. There is no comparison between a mass beheading (too violent and horrible to post here) and what our soldiers do. Even our worst don't even come up to the knee-caps of their average...errrr...worst. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest Manny Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 Relativism. There is no comparison between a mass beheading (too violent and horrible to post here) and what our soldiers do. Even our worst don't even come up to the knee-caps of their average...errrr...worst. Certainly cannot argue against that. Makes one wonder though, why a people would still prefer what they already have, sharia law and all, compared to what we offer them. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 Or it's Lictor back for a little more.... Well, Lictor is a Stormfront-type guy (I know....I spent several hours looking at that appalling nest of right-wing evil stupidity, for educational purposes). So, yeah, possibly you're right! Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Jack Weber Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 Certainly cannot argue against that. Makes one wonder though, why a people would still prefer what they already have, sharia law and all, compared to what we offer them. It's called a predominately perverse and backwards version of Islam that seems to have taken over in that region...It clearly stunts the growth,and it would also seem the minds,of those who live in that region... But that's Afghanistan and it's been that way for centuries... The fact that some actually thought THIS time things would be different is the height of insular nationalistic hubris and jingoism.... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Well, Lictor is a Stormfront-type guy (I know....I spent several hours looking at that appalling nest of right-wing evil stupidity, for educational purposes). So, yeah, possibly you're right! I went there once... Did you see the "music" section? Needed a shower after the few moments I was there... My wife took one look and laughed her "ethnically correct" butt off!!!! It would seem,The Right One,has taken off unable to answer the few questions/comments posed at him... I'll bet the "Hare...Hunter...Field..." reference went right over his goose steppin' head!?!? Edited March 31, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bleeding heart Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 I went there once... Did you see the "music" section? I don't think so, but I looked over the "movies" section...and found that most of these are big fans of "American History X." Sure, they deplore the liberal sensibilities of the movie...but they love the character's racist, politicized speeches. If it seems odd, I suppose it's not at bottom dissimilar from Anthony Swofford talking about himself and his fellow Marines watching "Platoon" and "Apocalypse Now"--both antiwar films--to psyche themselves up for battle. (Except for one major difference; racist morons versus rough 'n ready Marines, a pretty big distinction). It would seem,The Right One,has taken off unable to answer the few questions/comments posed at him... Those types almost always do. They know they are arguing with their superiors, and so snipe and then move on. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Jack Weber Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) I don't think so, but I looked over the "movies" section...and found that most of these are big fans of "American History X." Sure, they deplore the liberal sensibilities of the movie...but they love the character's racist, politicized speeches. If it seems odd, I suppose it's not at bottom dissimilar from Anthony Swofford talking about himself and his fellow Marines watching "Platoon" and "Apocalypse Now"--both antiwar films--to psyche themselves up for battle. (Except for one major difference; racist morons versus rough 'n ready Marines, a pretty big distinction). Those types almost always do. They know they are arguing with their superiors, and so snipe and then move on. I'm sure Birth of a Nation is right up thier alley...Well,maybe not because,as it has no sound,it's probably considered too "High Brow" and "Elitist"? And yes...I did enjoy turning Lictor's version history on it's head..I got the idea he was like the goofs at the Klan meeting in the Dave Chappelle skit ,"Nathan Bigsby...Black White Supremacist!" ...Heads exploding from incomprehension... Edited March 31, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 Certainly cannot argue against that. Makes one wonder though, why a people would still prefer what they already have, sharia law and all, compared to what we offer them. A lot of them don't prefer that. Why do you think the Taliban has to rule with such force and violence? - It's to impose their will on the people. A lot of them do support our efforts and appreciate the good will that our troops have bestowed upon them. If you would spend a little time looking into that aspect of the situation, you might find out that the majority of the troops aren't cold-hearted bastards unemotionally running over little kids. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 And there are also the neither-nors: for example, those in the camp of MPs like Malalai Joya; modern, secular-minded, liberal Afghans who detest the Taliban; but also don't trust the Western interventionists any farther than they can toss them. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 And there are also the neither-nors: for example, those in the camp of MPs like Malalai Joya; modern, secular-minded, liberal Afghans who detest the Taliban; but also don't trust the Western interventionists any farther than they can toss them. There are also Afhans who do trust the western troops and feel that they are the ones who care most about them - and fear full-blown civil war once we withdraw. No matter what one thinks of the troops, fact is, there are those who care more about the Afghans - and have done more for them - than anyone within their country's 'power' system has - or will. Quote
Jack Weber Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 There are also Afhans who do trust the western troops and feel that they are the ones who care most about them - and fear full-blown civil war once we withdraw. No matter what one thinks of the troops, fact is, there are those who care more about the Afghans - and have done more for them - than anyone within their country's 'power' system has - or will. Do you work for the US State Deparment's public relations arm? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bleeding heart Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) There are also Afhans who do trust the western troops and feel that they are the ones who care most about them - and fear full-blown civil war once we withdraw. Yes, I'm aware of that. You stated this; I (in the spirit of your call for balance) pointed out a third (rarely discussed) element...and you repeat yours again? Why? Why do you take my remark as some sort of attack? No matter what one thinks of the troops, fact is, there are those who care more about the Afghans - and have done more for them - than anyone within their country's 'power' system has - or will. Well, as for Joya: she has spent her entire adult life battling both the Taliban and our Warlord allies (many of whom are idelogical twins of the Taliban itself). At great personal risk. Constant death threats, including from other MPs and our own Afghan allies, all in the name of secular humanism, women's, children's and minority rights, a more liberal political system and laws based on protecting individual rights. So your stated opinion--that we have troops there who not only have done more for the Afghans--but who "care more about them"--is preposterous. Edited March 31, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 Yes, I'm aware of that. You stated this; I (in the spirit of your call for balance) pointed out a third (rarely discussed) element...and you repeat yours again? Really? The fact that there are camps within Afghanistan that don't trust westerners is rarely discussed? Why? Because in light of what I took as all but a dismissal of what I said, I chose to repeat it. Why do you take my remark as some sort of attack? why do you think I took your remark as some sort of attack? Well, as for Joya: she has spent her entire adult life battling both the Taliban and our Warlord allies (many of whom are idelogical twins of the Taliban itself). At great personal risk. Constant death threats, including from other MPs and our own Afghan allies, all in the name of secular humanism, women's, children's and minority rights, a more liberal political system and laws based on protecting individual rights.So your stated opinion--that we have troops there who not only have done more for the Afghans--but who "care more about them"--is preposterous. There's a reason that I used quotes when speaking of "the 'power' system" in Afghanistan. And fyi, it wasn't my opinion so much as it was the opinion of those I was speaking of. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Really? The fact that there are camps within Afghanistan that don't trust westerners is rarely discussed? Most of the discussion is about the medieval religious fanatics who hate us; or the Afghans who like us. No, those I mentioned are rarely discussed. Very rarely. Because in light of what I took as all but a dismissal of what I said, I chose to repeat it. It was not a dismissal; no more than your decision to provide some context of military personnel behaving admirably and courageously is a dismissal of other points of view. I'm assuming you aren't dismissing other points of view; I ask only for the basic civility of assuming the same about me. why do you think I took your remark as some sort of attack? I said "attack"; you said "dismissal." If that helps you, fine. Both are incorrect, just by the way; my incorrect assessment of your view, and your clarification. There's a reason that I used quotes when speaking of "the 'power' system" in Afghanistan. Well maybe you could be so kind as to clarify what you mean. Is an elected MP not part of the "power system"? And fyi, it wasn't my opinion so much as it was the opinion of those I was speaking of. Who? The Afghans? What are you trying to get at exactly? Edited March 31, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
eyeball Posted April 1, 2012 Report Posted April 1, 2012 Relativism. There is no comparison between a mass beheading (too violent and horrible to post here) and what our soldiers do. Even our worst don't even come up to the knee-caps of their average...errrr...worst. Our worst actually's who inspired their's. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted April 1, 2012 Report Posted April 1, 2012 "U.S. wins hearts and minds" I disagree with this statement. U.S, NATO have not won the hearts and minds in Afghanistan. They've also lost a lot more than they started with in the Coalition of the Duped. The lament's and glorifying continue however and I can't think of anything that cheapens the truly selfless acts more than using them to put a shine on a truly depraved and disgusting war. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted April 1, 2012 Report Posted April 1, 2012 Our worst actually's who inspired their's. Keep hitting your hand with that hammer. Let me know when it starts to feel good. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest American Woman Posted April 1, 2012 Report Posted April 1, 2012 Do you work for the US State Deparment's public relations arm? Do you work for the Taliban's? Quote
GostHacked Posted April 1, 2012 Report Posted April 1, 2012 Why? They reported it - but the usual crowd didn't react. If this soldier had killed the girl, and had had the same media coverage, the usual 'critics' would have been all over it. So I blame the reaction of the people at large. Let me clarify. You can blame the media for non stop talking about the 1 guy who killed 17 people, while giving this guy who did a good deed, his 15 seconds, and then off to something else. Your reaction is a perfect example, actually, as you had nothing to say about the soldier's actions. Shove it. That particular statement you quoted from me, had nothing to do with the soldiers actions. I don't know about you, but the media doesn't control me - and if you are controlled by the media, I suggest you develop the art of critical thinking - but odd that you claim it's the media's fault, as you don't "blame the media" when the troops are being demonized. The media controls and manipulates you more than you understand. Critical thinking is not one of your strong points. Quote
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