Will the Collapse of Greece affect Canada?

[Rocky Road]

Compared to what? Were you alive in 1973?

He details how to buy his books and DVDs even more!

Even in doom there are dollars to be made.

No I wasn't alive in 73.

I understand he seems like a doomer trying to make a buck,

but his free videos are interesting, he certainly makes sense.

And first and foremost he is an activist trying to raise awareness.

[Rocky Road]

"The shallow veneer of democracy has been lifted in Greece and the reality of elite rule in a Neoliberal, globalised economy is exposed in all it’s brutality.

The same is true in Italy where the EU has effectively installed a non-elected technocrat to control the economy in the interests of global capital; A non-violent, bureaucratic coup, but a coup nonetheless.

It seems to be widely accepted by the elites in Europe and the U.S. that it is now the job of the government’s of Italy and Greece to defend the interests of worldwide capitalism at all costs. There is no longer any reference to even basic notions of democratic legitimacy; even the Western parliamentary system of elected oligarchy has had to be abandoned; brute power is simply being asserted violently by the State, using the police & the army, in the interests of global capital.

And no one in the mainstream media, including the BBC, is seriously challenging any of this. In the mainstream media I have never heard or read anyone describe what is happening in Greece and Italy as the destruction of democracy in the interests of capital, let alone question if these installed governments have any democratic legitimacy.

In the 1930′s many Leftist commentators perceived Fascism as the inevitable and ultimate expression of Capitalism; with the State working hand in glove with big-business in the interests of an industrialised, totalitarian notion of National, ethnic supremacy.

Yet after 60 years of Western Cold War rhetoric where free-markets were portrayed as a necessary pre-condition for free societies, the totalitarian tendencies of Capitalism seem to have been entirely forgotten – despite the evidence staring us in the face in Italy & Greece.

I pose this question – How would the U.S. and the E.U. react if a popular revolution in Greece threw out the current puppets of Brussels and installed a progressive Socialist government that nationalised the means of production, reinstated the welfare state, cancelled the countries debts and left the Euro?

Even if such a government were demonstrably supported by the mass of the population, the interests of global capital represented by the E.U., the U.S., the World Bank, the IMF, The G 7, NATO, even the United Nations simply could not let it succeed.

At the very least we would see economic sanctions and a trade war (see Cuba), but more likely I think we would see troops on the street to ‘liberate’ these wayward countries from the evil communists, possibly in the form of military coups led by the General’s of the Italian and Greek armies. And of course in Greece there is a very recent precedent for this in the Military Junta of ‘The Colonels” from 1967-74 – covertly supported by the U.S. in order to depose a Centre Left President with popular support.

On the Guardian website, the video I’ve posted above is preceded by advertisements for consumer goods. Which illustrates neatly why no mainstream media can seriously question whether the interests of global capitalism coincide with the interests of ordinary citizens, or whether the interests of global capital can/do undermine democracy.

There is a direct historical link between the Wall Street Crash of 1929, the world-wide depression of the 1930′s, the growth of Fascism in Europe and thus to WWII.

In Greece and Italy non-democratic regimes have already been installed. If the mass of the population refuse to accept the toxic medicine they are told they must take to protect the interests of the wealthy, then history tells us to be wary of what is to come and I fear for the people of both countries because the current masters of the universe, like those who have gone before, will stop at nothing to maintain their power and privilege."

http://notnumber.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/this-is-not-suicide-it-is-financial-murder/

[Michael Hardner]

Why are you blaming capitalism for the failure of one of the most socialist systems ?

This reminds me of those who call America 'socialist' and say it's about to collapse.

50% civil service is a strange sounding capitalism. They should have seen this coming.

[TimG]

THe Greek public service costs too much, and is more than 50% of GDP. If you fire all those workers, or strip them of their pensions they set fire to the capitol and bring down the government. But you can roll their wages and pensions and all the other costs associated with them back significant using devaluation without causing the same kind of problem.

Devaluation does nothing to solve a problem created by a government that suffocates the private sector. Fixing that problem requires a cultural change.

Stay in the eurozone with all that easy credit and rock bottom rates, and the borrowing will not stop. In fact the whole solution the ECB/IMF are proposing is that Greece borrow a whole shitload more money.

The eurozone allowed its banks to hold government bonds as secure capital. They are propping up Greece in order to prevent a meltdown of their banking system. As a consequence, Greece is being given an opportunity to reform without facing the painful chaos caused by a exit from the eurozone. If Greeks were smart they would recognize this and clean up their act. The do not appear to be smart.

Its a HEALTHY thing for your credit to get cut off, even though it hurts for a while.

Sure. But it would be even healthier if politicians and voters would swallow their medicine without getting backed into a corner.

[madmax]

Why are you blaming capitalism for the failure of one of the most socialist systems ?

This reminds me of those who call America 'socialist' and say it's about to collapse.

50% civil service is a strange sounding capitalism. They should have seen this coming.

I find it interesting that Greece is getting all this attention.

Its damage is compared to what Madof accomplished on his own.

Greeces Corruption index is high.. similar to Madof being crooked.

Similar to Enron, Worldcom, Bree X, and the list goes on of Corruption affecting the economy.

Its not a Captalisms Socialism problem.. but many would like it to be for political reasons.

If you compare the Irish Tiger... now in a SIMILAR funk as a Greece... its problems were caused by its on banking institutions playing the mortgage game.... sound familiar.

If you took away the Corruption/Abuse of US mortgages.. the Stock Market Manipulation...the US would not have been squeezed as hard and in as deep.

On top of that the US shipping its work offshore so that Capitalists can benefit in Communist/Socialist countries, has also created the slow rebound..

Greece... is the Whipping boy of the right wing and a great distraction from all the problems around them.

When you want to get out of the whole .. stop digging.. and in countries that have high corruption... that hole is going to stick around and get deeper.

[bush_cheney2004]

....On top of that the US shipping its work offshore so that Capitalists can benefit in Communist/Socialist countries, has also created the slow rebound..

Capital is portable....one of the first countries to benefit from US "offshoring" of jobs was Canada. Was that a good or bad idea?

When you want to get out of the whole .. stop digging.. and in countries that have high corruption... that hole is going to stick around and get deeper.

Canada was a leader in this regard, being one of the first social democracies to stare into the debt abyss. Greece lasted far longer!

[Rocky Road]

I find it interesting that Greece is getting all this attention. ...

When you want to get out of the whole .. stop digging.. and in countries that have high corruption... that hole is going to stick around and get deeper.

What about JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs and the like, these banksters are financial terrorists and they get away with ruining lives.

[Rocky Road]

edging closer to the Greeks exiting the Eurozone, eh.

[Rocky Road]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-business-stories/greek-turmoil-sinks-markets-in-the-grip-of-another-crisis/article2431737/

"Politicians and policy makers in the 17-member monetary union are now voicing the possibility of Greece leaving as its troubles deepen. Talks to build a coaltion government have failed following last week's election, though talks continued today, and the country seems headed for a second vote in June."

[madmax]

Capital is portable....one of the first countries to benefit from US "offshoring" of jobs was Canada. Was that a good or bad idea?

Canada economy with the coming of Europeans was Crown Corporations.. capital was not portable as it was directed by the King/Queen in their interests.

Most goods were resource based and little to no capital investment directed to Canada. Processing was done offshore.

By the time Canada formed a country, Conservative John A Macdonald didn't see the Market, or Capitalism as the solution. It took Direct Government intervention and the NATIONAL POLICY to put into place an economy that was not resource exports.

He then put into place high tariffs of which it became of greater interest for companies to invest in Canada.. then ship the goods.

Regardless of history and the transistions of the past 130years...

I LAUGH at the Thread title as Greeces Entire Economy is rather small potatoes and its relation to Canada is nearly insignificant.

But the US economy, and its inbedded corporate corruption has a HUGE impact on the Canadian Economy,

as it does the US economy.

And locally, we don't prosecute corporate criminals like in the US.

thank you for taking care of Conrad Black for us...

[mentalfloss]

Greece is the new WMD.

[Argus]

First of all greece has not defaulted. Its creditors have voluntarily offered to write down some debt so that they wont default. This should be an easy concept for you to understand. If you refuse to pay you loan back to the bank thats a default. But if your bank says "you can just pay us half!" thats not a default.

What if they tell you you can pay half while you have a gun stuck in the face?

[Argus]

These people made terrible investments and should lose their money.

I like all this wild contempt for people who dared to buy something so risky as 'government bonds'.

You do realize that many of these bonds were purchased many years ago, right? Do you consider people who buy Canada Savings Bonds to be radical investors living on the edge, too?

Greece quite simply does not have the money to service this debt.

I also like your contempt and lack of care for the investors but your lackadaisical attitude towards the Greeks. "Oh well, they just don't have the money."

Gee, not their fault. Not like they spent it all on booze and broads and partying and simply refusing to pay the bills so they could take more vacations and relax. Not like half the country doesn't figure a way not to pay taxes. Not like half those who are working work for the government. Not like they weren't economic imbeciles for decades or that the moronic voters didn't keep electing those who promised them an easy time.

If the Greeks are in a depression, they richly deserve to be there.

As for those bond holders you sneer at. Many of them are Greek citizens, pension funds, and banks. And when those banks, in Greek and elsewhere go under, they'll take more institutions with them, along with the savings of more small people, pension funds, mutual funds, etc. etc. And that will prompt people to get out of other European banks, and to stop buying bonds for places like Spain and Italy, pushing them closer to bankruptcy,as well, and the whole cycle gets worse.

[dre]

I like all this wild contempt for people who dared to buy something so risky as 'government bonds'.

You do realize that many of these bonds were purchased many years ago, right? Do you consider people who buy Canada Savings Bonds to be radical investors living on the edge, too?

I also like your contempt and lack of care for the investors but your lackadaisical attitude towards the Greeks. "Oh well, they just don't have the money."

Gee, not their fault. Not like they spent it all on booze and broads and partying and simply refusing to pay the bills so they could take more vacations and relax. Not like half the country doesn't figure a way not to pay taxes. Not like half those who are working work for the government. Not like they weren't economic imbeciles for decades or that the moronic voters didn't keep electing those who promised them an easy time.

If the Greeks are in a depression, they richly deserve to be there.

As for those bond holders you sneer at. Many of them are Greek citizens, pension funds, and banks. And when those banks, in Greek and elsewhere go under, they'll take more institutions with them, along with the savings of more small people, pension funds, mutual funds, etc. etc. And that will prompt people to get out of other European banks, and to stop buying bonds for places like Spain and Italy, pushing them closer to bankruptcy,as well, and the whole cycle gets worse.

I like all this wild contempt for people who dared to buy something so risky as 'government bonds'.

Stop the retarded bullshit. I dont have "wild contempt" for anyone. Some investors lose money and some investors make money. Its called market capitalism. If there was a real market for Greek bonds then the ECB wouldnt HAVE to buy them.

If the Greeks are in a depression, they richly deserve to be there.

Then why your big plan to force global tax payers to bail them out?

As for those bond holders you sneer at

And that will prompt people to get out of other European banks, and to stop buying bonds for places like Spain and Italy, pushing them closer to bankruptcy,as well, and the whole cycle gets worse.

And all lending them more money will do is make their problems bigger and worse in the long term, and all them to avoid balancing consumption and production. Your brilliant plan is to give the guy with 5 maxed out credit cards a sixth It might help him for the very short term but in the long term youre just making his problem worse.

Why do you hate market capitalism? If Greece mismanaged its finances why should global tax payers be forced to buy their bonds? Its a lose lose situation for everyone involved including Greece.

[Michael Hardner]

And all lending them more money will do is make their problems bigger and worse in the long term, and all them to avoid balancing consumption and production. Your brilliant plan is to give the guy with 5 maxed out credit cards a sixth It might help him for the very short term but in the long term youre just making his problem worse.

In the short term, using your example, all of his cards are cut off, he is evicted and goes out into the street. No more debt !

[Rocky Road]

I LAUGH at the Thread title as Greeces Entire Economy is rather small potatoes and its relation to Canada is nearly insignificant.

Greece is experiencing symptoms of a major crisis in economic policy, they are not alone. The US and many European countries are also experiencing major problems in their struggle towards economic stability.

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-19-08/countdown-break-euro-has-officially-begun

Edited May 15, 2012 by Rocky Road

[Moonbox]

The whole world experienced a major crisis in economic policy. For various reasons, some countries came out of it better than others. Greece, however, is a pretty cocktail of ineptitude. Like madmax said, it is a puny economy and barely accounts for a fraction of the overall Euro zone. The big fear, I think, is that European banks have led heavily to it and if the Greeks default then it could occur further financial instability in Europe.

That being said, eventually enough has to be enough. The Greeks have, for a very long time, nurtured a culture of corruption and inefficiency that would make Soviet Russia proud. The Greeks don't like paying taxes (and make every effort to evade them, illegally), and there's very little political will to put an end to this. The public service, and their social services are far too generous as well, considering their budget. A people who rely on their government to employ them, insist of unaffordable social services, and then refuse to pay taxes to support them deserve everything they have coming to them.

If I was a German right now, I'd be screaming for them to cut the cord, and angry that they hadn't done it years ago.

[mentalfloss]

If I was a German right now, I'd be screaming for them to cut the cord, and angry that they hadn't done it years ago.

They haven't done it because it's nowhere near a critical problem yet.

[dre]

The whole world experienced a major crisis in economic policy. For various reasons, some countries came out of it better than others. Greece, however, is a pretty cocktail of ineptitude. Like madmax said, it is a puny economy and barely accounts for a fraction of the overall Euro zone. The big fear, I think, is that European banks have led heavily to it and if the Greeks default then it could occur further financial instability in Europe.

That being said, eventually enough has to be enough. The Greeks have, for a very long time, nurtured a culture of corruption and inefficiency that would make Soviet Russia proud. The Greeks don't like paying taxes (and make every effort to evade them, illegally), and there's very little political will to put an end to this. The public service, and their social services are far too generous as well, considering their budget. A people who rely on their government to employ them, insist of unaffordable social services, and then refuse to pay taxes to support them deserve everything they have coming to them.

If I was a German right now, I'd be screaming for them to cut the cord, and angry that they hadn't done it years ago.

If I was a German right now, I'd be screaming for them to cut the cord, and angry that they hadn't done it years ago.

Maybe although Germany has finally gotten much of the control it tried to get over Europe in WW2. These central bankers basically make the laws now. They basically took money from taxpayers around the world, and then used it to force Greece to amend their constitution to ensure that future governments put paying off all this debt ahead of funding other national priorities. And they more or less picked the previous Greek government.

that would make Soviet Russia proud

The real socialism going on here starts with institutions like the ECB and IMF. Neither of these entities has a dime to their name to lend in the first place. They take money from tax payers around the world.

Theres no need for ANY of this, and central banks should not be buying Greek bonds. Theres a bond market, and if there isnt real market driven demand for Greek debt then nobody should buy it, and Greece would be forced to balance consumption with production, and retool its economy.

And Greece is a microcosm for the rest of the west. They are doing the same thing we are, but they are doing more of it. Most western countries are going to find themselves in the same boat sooner or later, and the ones that dont control their own currency are going to have no way out of it.

[Rocky Road]

http://mobile.news.com.au/business/markets/election-apocolyse-greeks-stock-up-on-canned-food/story-e6frfm30-1226395368597?sv=57fdd3cd7ccbf3d2137406d937b371db

Meltdown.

[Rocky Road]

http://mobile.news.com.au/business/markets/election-apocolyse-greeks-stock-up-on-canned-food/story-e6frfm30-1226395368597?sv=57fdd3cd7ccbf3d2137406d937b371db

Meltdown.

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/06/14/canadians-be-warned-your-finances-could-soon-get-a-big-shock/

[Fletch 27]

Very unique perspective.. I admire your blindness..

They haven't done it because it's nowhere near a critical problem yet.

[Anti-Am]

I am pulling my money out of the bank tomorrow and so are a few other people I know.

I realize I am over reacting but when these things happen the dominos fall very quickly.

[Rocky Road]

Hmmmmmm.

[capricorn]

I am pulling my money out of the bank tomorrow

I know where you can get a great deal on duffle bags.