dre Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 But to set up a system that essentially guarantees minority governments is a giant change with many unknowns. The system we have (FPTP) works well enough IMO. Honestly although Iv scoffed at this idea in the past, I think we might have to move towards a more democratic system where we have referendums on certain big ticket items. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Honestly although Iv scoffed at this idea in the past, I think we might have to move towards a more democratic system where we have referendums on certain big ticket items. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18839&st=105 Responding on that thread. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
capricorn Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 I think that as long as a healthy majority of Canadians wanted those things, then yeah. Since parties normally run election campaigns backed by a policy platform, yes Canadians can vote on whether they want what a party is selling. There are times though, when a party will move to introduce far reaching policies nowhere to be found in their election platform. I think back to the Liberal party's introduction of multiculturalism, a re-definition of the entire Canadian society. Add conversion to the metric system. No notice, no vote on the question for the plebes. Done deal, case closed. Yes I know. Now we have Bill C-30.... People had a different relationship with government back then. And political parties have a different relationship to each other today. Is there any doubt that technology has lead to these reconstituted relationships? Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
cybercoma Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Posted February 24, 2012 True but when 40% of people can dicate policy to the other 60% thats going conflict with pretty much any reasonable personss sense of fairness and justice. If its just an anomaly that happens once ever 15 or 20 years, then you can consider it a managable flaw in an otherwise good system. But if this starts to happen on a regular basis then clearly it will have to get fixed. Democracy isnt about a minority of the population having control. It has happened on a regular basis. Over the last 20 years that has been the norm. Majority governance from 38-42% of the vote or 25-30% of all eligible voters. Quote
cybercoma Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Posted February 24, 2012 I have no problem for the 60% who don't bother to show up. You have to look at the result, which is a good one IMO. How can the result be good, if people were posing as the LPC and harassing their voters or callilng constituents and telling them their polling stations had moved? The result cannot be good with these kinds of tactics afoot. Quote
olpfan1 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 It gets better, Sona is from New Jersey and was only in Guelph attending University He's an American! Few years a go a Montana company was used to robo call harass Canadians claiming to be from the LPC See a pattern? Quote
Argus Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 True but when 40% of people can dicate policy to the other 60% thats going conflict with pretty much any reasonable personss sense of fairness and justice. Hmm, for three decades the 25% of the population who lived in Quebec dictated policy to the 75% who didn't..... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Since parties normally run election campaigns backed by a policy platform, yes Canadians can vote on whether they want what a party is selling. There are times though, when a party will move to introduce far reaching policies nowhere to be found in their election platform. I think back to the Liberal party's introduction of multiculturalism, a re-definition of the entire Canadian society. Add conversion to the metric system. No notice, no vote on the question for the plebes. Done deal, case closed. Yes I know. Now we have Bill C-30.... And political parties have a different relationship to each other today. Is there any doubt that technology has lead to these reconstituted relationships? Since parties normally run election campaigns backed by a policy platform, yes Canadians can vote on whether they want what a party is selling. No they can vote on packages of policy and campaign promises the usually dont come to pass. That is NOT voting on policy. And thats why people get grouped into these stupid left vs right parties. If I could vote on the individual policies, I would pick some conservative policies and some liberal policies, some centrist policies, and even some libertarian policies. Because all of those groups have some smart people in them with some good ideas. Instead of buying a bag of groceries with an arbitrary selection of products in it, and could vote for which products I think would make a nice bag of groceries. Maybe I want to buy some new military hardware without paying to throw small time pot offenders in jail! Why shouldnt I be able to do that? Maybe I want to stay out of the war in Iraq, but I dont want a long gun registry? Corporations and special interests in this case would have to switch from lobbying the government behind closed doors to lobbying the public out in the open, because campaign donations could no longer be directly traded for government policy. Theres clearly some cases that wouldnt work... it probably wouldnt be constitional to have a referendum on something like civil rights, but most things would work just fine. It would also force the government to explain stuff way better to us, and give us a reason to be interested. Edited February 24, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
scribblet Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Honestly although Iv scoffed at this idea in the past, I think we might have to move towards a more democratic system where we have referendums on certain big ticket items. I've always thought that, it was one the main planks of the Reform party. Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
Smallc Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Hmm, for three decades the 25% of the population who lived in Quebec dictated policy to the 75% who didn't..... Oh spare us. Quote
Bryan Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Are we seriously supposed to believe this young person who took a ballot box in open sight with cameras all around him orchestrated this robocall conspiracy? I weep for anyone who believes that If anything it's the opposite: anyone who believes the party had anything to do with this is just flat out crazy. There's no chance they'd approve of anything like this. It's only specifically because it was one guy working alone who told no one that it was possible to happen. Besides that, only a lone young staffer who wasn't thinking things through would think to use a burner cell phone, but wouldn't think to use a different calling service than the one the party was already using. Quote
WWWTT Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) deleted Edited February 24, 2012 by WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
WWWTT Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Electoral fraud ? Not sure how that's related to the topic of voter participation. I believe that it is alleged the conservatives did not want the voters to turn out(assuming that the voters would vote against them)by spreading misinformation through robocalls. Therefore less than 40% of the electorate turnout on election day(in select ridings) would favour the conservative vote tally. Olpfan1 I believe is still on topic about this one. WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Smallc Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 I would be rather unhappy if this rose to the level where by-elections were needed. That would be goodbye to the Conservative majority government, I think. Quote
cybercoma Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 I would be rather unhappy if this rose to the level where by-elections were needed. That would be goodbye to the Conservative majority government, I think. I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'm incredibly cynical, so I highly doubt they would fall below 155 as a result of byelection. That's assuming they even call them, which I'm also cynical about. Quote
Smallc Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'm incredibly cynical, so I highly doubt they would fall below 155 as a result of byelection. That's assuming they even call them, which I'm also cynical about. I don't think it will rise to the level that they have to, but you never know. Quote
dre Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 I don't think it will rise to the level that they have to, but you never know. You need to see some numbers. If there was a statistically significant number of these calls in close races they most definately should be re-run. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 You need to see some numbers. If there was a statistically significant number of these calls in close races they most definately should be re-run. Apparently, Elections Canada will make that call. Quote
Bryan Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'm incredibly cynical, so I highly doubt they would fall below 155 as a result of byelection. That's assuming they even call them, which I'm also cynical about. It's just as likely that they'd increase their seat count if any of the robo-called riding are ones that the CPC didn't win. Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 If anything it's the opposite: anyone who believes the party had anything to do with this is just flat out crazy. There's no chance they'd approve of anything like this. It's only specifically because it was one guy working alone who told no one that it was possible to happen. Besides that, only a lone young staffer who wasn't thinking things through would think to use a burner cell phone, but wouldn't think to use a different calling service than the one the party was already using. You're talking about a party that distributed booklets to its members on how to subvert and hold up committee's when it was in a minority position.You're talking about a party that prorogued parliament twice to save it's own political hide.You're talking about a party that was found in contempt of parliament because it's structural hierarchy simply could'nt,or would'nt,acknowledge the supremacy of parliament... I could go on... You're talking about a party you've admitted to giving money to... You don't exactly have alot of credibility on the matter... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 I don't think it will rise to the level that they have to, but you never know. If this does get to the point that the uppermost echelons of the Harper Government were knowledgable or involved in voter surpression/nullification by deliberate and clandestine means,I do wonder if the Governor General has the perogative to dissolve a potentially disgraced majority government? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
waldo Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 If some by-elections do come as a result, the Liberals should make it easy on everyone and just post their Supporters list and their phone numbers online so everyone can use them. you're heeelarious! so ya, one low-level Conservative doofus was responsible for it all... responsible for the robocon fraud that hit at least... at least... 27 ridings across the country. No, this is not the handiwork of just one doofus - there is more to come - much more... stay thirsty my friends! Quote
Bryan Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 You're talking about a party that distributed booklets to its members on how to subvert and hold up committee's when it was in a minority position.You're talking about a party that prorogued parliament twice to save it's own political hide.You're talking about a party that was found in contempt of parliament because it's structural hierarchy simply could'nt,or would'nt,acknowledge the supremacy of parliament... I could go on... You're talking about a party you've admitted to giving money to... You don't exactly have alot of credibility on the matter... You're talking about a bunch of fake scandals that don't mean anything, that when presented with the "evidence", voters supported the CPC even more. Your feigned outrage doesn't exactly have alot of credibility on the matter... Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) You're talking about a bunch of fake scandals that don't mean anything, that when presented with the "evidence", voters supported the CPC even more. Your feigned outrage doesn't exactly have alot of credibility on the matter... Only "fake" scandals to an admitted card carrying,money giving shill... By the way Bryan... Are you going to cry to the mods about the shill comment? Yoi did admit to giving that party your coin,did'nt you? Edited February 25, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Bryan Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Only "fake" scandals to an admitted card carrying,money giving shill... By the way Bryan... Are you going to cry to the mods about the shill comment? Yoi did admit to giving that party your coin,did'nt you? Again, all you've demonstrated is that you do not understand what the term shill means. Shills GET paid. By definition they are NOT believers in a given cause, just guns for hire. Professional activists, for instance, are shills. No, I won't report you (I've never reported anyone). You're perfectly entitled to be as ignorant as you want. Quote
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