Guest American Woman Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Have you asked all of them? Why would they believe something that the Bible doesn't say? Why would they make that up? You're the one who is always saying beliefs are based on the Bible. I believe you've also said that religious people don't hold the moral high ground. Now you're saying they are less likely to kill themselves because of beliefs that the Bible doesn't even teach? You can't have it both ways. If religious people are less likely to kill themselves because of their beliefs, then they are less likely to kill others and/or commit violent crimes because of their beliefs, and non-religious people are more likely to commit such crimes and do so at a higher rate than religious people do. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Okay, so here's my theory. Canadians are well known as less aggressive, more quiet, maybe even apathetic, right? Americans, on the other hand are more aggressive(at least in comparison to Canadians), more passionate like that, right? And the American behavior tends to work out the stress a little better in my opinion. Work out the stress, better emotional and mental health, less suicides. Don't let anyone tell you that pot is helping Canadians. Possible. It could also be that there are more Canadians that are isolated, as a proportion of our population (I'm not sure if this is true or not, just speculating) or that Americans have a stronger "national" identity that's larger than the individuals. It's not that Canadians aren't patriotic, but let's be real here, Americans take it to a whole other level. These characteristics of living more in isolation and not having a "national" ideal are characteristics of individuals not being tapped into something larger than themselves. Patriotism is an ideal larger than oneself. Being more integrated into a community, as with the religious or people that live near others, rather than in isolation, is also a connection to something larger than themselves (namely the community). Having something greater than oneself, a greater purpose, would make a person less likely to take their life because they would feel they are an integral part of that something larger. On a side note, it can work in the other direction. You could be overly integrated into the community and your life can become meaningless to that greater ideal, such that you willingly sacrifice your life. An example of this is soldiers that kill themselves for their country. Quote
waldo Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Now if we can get back on topic, why has Canadian suicide by means other than firearms increased since the 1990's? citation request World Health Organization (WHO) data, without regard to suicide mode; i.e., inclusive of firearms. Accepting your premise that suicide by firearms has decreased since 1990, any associated increase would have to be attributed to, as you say, 'other than firearms'. This particular WHO data does not support your assertion that, as you state, "Canadian suicide by means other than firearms has increased since the 1990's. again, citation request for you to identify the specific data you're using to support your assertion... Quote
cybercoma Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Why would they believe something that the Bible doesn't say? Why would they make that up? You're the one who is always saying beliefs are based on the Bible. I believe you've also said that religious people don't hold the moral high ground. Now you're saying they are less likely to kill themselves because of beliefs that the Bible doesn't even teach? I didn't say beliefs are always based on the Bible. Maybe they should be, but they're not. This much should be obvious. There are many different sects of Christianity for that reason. Different people interpret the Bible differently. In addition to that, different people interpret their own religion different sometimes. So, if religiosity and morality is a factor, it doesn't matter what the Bible says. It matters that people of a particular religion believe suicide to be a moral or religious issue. I'm pretty sure many Christians do, whether it says it explicitly in the Bible or not. You can't have it both ways. If religious people are less likely to kill themselves because of their beliefs, then they are less likely to kill others and/or commit violent crimes because of their beliefs, and non-religious people are more likely to commit such crimes and do so at a higher rate than religious people do. I already said in a previous reply why this doesn't work. In any case, I personally don't believe it has to do with the morality aspect of religion, but the community. I also can't be bothered going back to the article I posted earlier to see why they drew the conclusion about religion and why they used "morality" in their description. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 I dont believe I even mentioned that. What I would say since you mentioned it is that religious people place higher value on some lives in some situations. Abortion, suicide, and assisted suicide for example. I mentioned it - and you're avoiding the actual question. If religious beliefs would make one less likely to kill themselves, wouldn't they be less likely to kill someone else? Why would their beliefs only make them less likely to kill themselves?? Or maybe just more likely to have support when they do get depressed. Im not necessarily saying I think that though, and like I said theres probably a host of factors. Im just speculating that might be one of them. You were doing more than speculating. You said Americans are more afraid of god. Now you seem to be speculating that their belief system is actually a good thing; that it's more likely to get them support when needed. I'm just trying to follow your line of thought regarding your claims. But you tell me! Im about as spiritual as busted screwdriver... Does your faith play a role in your mental health, and give you strength when you are depressed? I've don't speak of my faith, my beliefs - and I don't intend to. But you seem to believe that it does - and that would be a good thing, right? It seems to me you are all over the board - religious people are nuts, they aren't more moral, but they are less likely to commit the sin of suicide because of their beliefs? Makes no sense to me ............. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 I didn't say beliefs are always based on the Bible. Maybe they should be, but they're not. This much should be obvious. There are many different sects of Christianity for that reason. Different people interpret the Bible differently. In addition to that, different people interpret their own religion different sometimes. So, if religiosity and morality is a factor, it doesn't matter what the Bible says. It matters that people of a particular religion believe suicide to be a moral or religious issue. I'm pretty sure many Christians do, whether it says it explicitly in the Bible or not. So by the same token, they would believe killing others, violent crime, etc. to be a moral or religious issue too, and therefore would be less likely than non-religious people to engage in such acts. I already said in a previous reply why this doesn't work. No you didn't. You are picking and choosing. You want to portray the religious as less likely to commit suicide to help explain Canada's higher suicide rate, yet you don't apply those same principles when someone says religious people are less likely to kill, etc. Quote
sharkman Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Wow, this thread is making me kinda depressed. Am I more likely to bite a bullet because I'm Canadian? Now I'm paranoid too... Quote
The_Squid Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Wow, this thread is making me kinda depressed. Am I more likely to bite a bullet because I'm Canadian? Now I'm paranoid too... It used to, but the USA overtook Canada in 2007. So, now you are .0005% less likely to commit suicide than an American. Quote
sharkman Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Sweet, you really know how to cheer a guy up! Oh wait, now I'm manic, or am I bi-polar? Quote
sharkman Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Possible. It could also be that there are more Canadians that are isolated, as a proportion of our population (I'm not sure if this is true or not, just speculating) or that Americans have a stronger "national" identity that's larger than the individuals. It's not that Canadians aren't patriotic, but let's be real here, Americans take it to a whole other level. These characteristics of living more in isolation and not having a "national" ideal are characteristics of individuals not being tapped into something larger than themselves. Patriotism is an ideal larger than oneself. Being more integrated into a community, as with the religious or people that live near others, rather than in isolation, is also a connection to something larger than themselves (namely the community). Having something greater than oneself, a greater purpose, would make a person less likely to take their life because they would feel they are an integral part of that something larger. On a side note, it can work in the other direction. You could be overly integrated into the community and your life can become meaningless to that greater ideal, such that you willingly sacrifice your life. An example of this is soldiers that kill themselves for their country. Or maybe it's just SAD with the shorter days... Seriously though, interesting theory. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 AW, the concluding remarks from that study gets about the religiosity argument using the same reasoning that I gave on this page. Religiosity is an example of social integration and low social integration is related to suicide. This is one of the explanations for divorced men and the unemployed have higher suicide rates. Your family and your job are things greater than yourself that tie you to society or the community. What's for certain is that studies have shown that youth in the United States have a different perception of suicide than youth in Canada. It's not clear why they tie these perceptions to religiosity, but it's probably due to religiosity's relationship with social integration. Nevertheless, it's difficult to conceive of another reason why perceptions would be different. They do also offer that Canadian youth are more "pessimistic than American youth about intervention." This means Canadian youth may not see any other solution to their problems than suicide. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Or maybe it's just SAD with the shorter days... Seriously though, interesting theory. It's not my theory. It was written in 1897 by Emile Durkheim. Quote
dre Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) I mentioned it - and you're avoiding the actual question. If religious beliefs would make one less likely to kill themselves, wouldn't they be less likely to kill someone else? Why would their beliefs only make them less likely to kill themselves?? I did answer it. Diferent value is applied to life in different situations. Without some supporting data theres no reason to assume religiosity would impact murder statistics the same way it impacts suicide. It may be true, and we could take some wild guesses but theres isnt much value to that line of thought in the absense of any data. It seems to me you are all over the board - religious people are nuts, they aren't more moral, but they are less likely to commit the sin of suicide because of their beliefs? Makes no sense to me It makes perfect sense because religion is a mixed bag. Theres absolutely no conflict at all between those statements. Edited January 9, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) World Health Organization (WHO) data, without regard to suicide mode; i.e., inclusive of firearms. Accepting your premise that suicide by firearms has decreased since 1990, any associated increase would have to be attributed to, as you say, 'other than firearms'.... No wonder you can't win at global warming either...obviously if suicides by firearms are down but rates are constant or growing, other means must be employed. Fun fact: In 1992, close to 3,000 men chose the ultimate way out of the "Canadian experience." http://fathersforlife.org/health/cansuic.htm Edited January 10, 2012 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 It makes perfect sense because religion is a mixed bag. Theres absolutely no conflict at all between those statements. You are waffling....as higher suicide rate Lithuania, Cuba, and other religious nations debunk your "theory". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 Hey...Suicide in Canada has its very own Facebook page. I wonder who would "friend" that?! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Suicide-in-Canada/171622879583038 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 You are waffling....as higher suicide rate Lithuania, Cuba, and other religious nations debunk your "theory". You know if you could even do math at a grade 1 level youd understand how retarded that statement is. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 You know if you could even do math at a grade 1 level youd understand how retarded that statement is. OK...but it's even more remarkable that such "retarded" statements keep you on the run. Praise Jesus and live longer in Canada! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 OK...but it's even more remarkable that such "retarded" statements keep you on the run. Praise Jesus and live longer in Canada! On the run from what? You made a stupid comment... I laughed at you... and thats pretty much it. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 On the run from what? You made a stupid comment... I laughed at you... and thats pretty much it. I suppose that's fair, as I often laugh at your mangled comments, but I don't think they are "retarded". I never realized that suicidal Canadians could be so much fun! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 Using the parliamentary data and statscan data, here are the suicides, population and suicide rate by year from 1990-2008 Number of suicides, population (millions), and suicide rate (per 100000) by year: 1991 3593 27.945 12.86 1992 3704 28.377 13.05 1993 3803 28.682 13.26 1994 3746 28.997 13.12 1995 3968 29.303 13.54 1996 3937 29.611 13.30 <--- Year the firearms registry took effect 1997 3677 29.965 12.27 1998 3698 30.158 12.26 1999 4073 30.404 13.40 2000 3606 30.689 11.75 2001 3692 31.021 11.90 2002 3650 31.373 11.63 2003 3765 31.676 11.88 2004 3613 32.048 11.27 2005 3743 32.359 11.57 2006 3512 32.723 10.73 2007 3611 33.115 10.90 2008 3705 33.506 11.05 And just to help you visualize the data, I went out of my way to create some crude charts for you. Here are the suicide rates by year. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/20120110054249.jpg/ And here are the number of suicides by year. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/20120110054633.jpg/ If you pay particular attention to 1996 (the year that the gun registry came into effect), you'll notice that the suicide rate was slightly trending upwards with a fairly significant decline after the registry came into effect (save for the anomaly during "Y2K" with an increase in suicides for 1999). This effect becomes even more dramatic when you look at the absolute numbers. Although they're somewhat lumpy, it is clear (save for "Y2K" again) that suicides were increasing. However, following 1996 there was a marked decline in the absolute numbers as well. Someone needs to learn how to interpret data, rather than taking the word of bloggers on the internet. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 Someone needs to learn how to interpret data, rather than taking the word of bloggers on the internet. LOL! But you said it was only about 2000-2007 data....make up your mind. I'm glad that you finally accept your own Parliament's data after being schooled by a 'merkin. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 There's a difference between people killing themselves due to mental illness and the terminally ill choosing how and when they will die. In any case they're ill so punishment is the preferred way to deal with them. You know, to deter them. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
cybercoma Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 LOL! But you said it was only about 2000-2007 data....make up your mind. I'm glad that you finally accept your own Parliament's data after being schooled by a 'merkin. That's right. Everything you've said in this thread is wrong. Glad I could help you learn a thing or two. Quote
eyeball Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 Wow, this thread is making me kinda depressed. Am I more likely to bite a bullet because I'm Canadian? Now I'm paranoid too... I wonder how many Canadians who bite the bullet do so because they're not American? I suppose assisted suicide for these would be a rather thinly disguised blessing. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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