Why is Canada's Suicide Rate Higher

[bush_cheney2004]

That's right. Everything you've said in this thread is wrong. Glad I could help you learn a thing or two.

Nothing I have taught you will impact the real tragedy that is Canadian suicide...it is the sad story of hangings, suffocation, and poisonings at higher levels since firearms restrictions came into vogue. Ironically, Marc Lépine still had the right to kill himself with an unregistered gun.

Eat more pizza....and live!

[cybercoma]

I'm glad suicide is really funny to you. You're a pathetic dirtbag.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm glad suicide is really funny to you. You're a pathetic dirtbag.

I think that is a violation of forum rules. You are forgiven.

Now more weird stuff from Canada....the export of "Exit Bags":

SYDNEY, Australia, Aug 21, 2001 (LSN.ca) - Australian media are reporting that the Canadian Right to Die Network is exporting a how-to guide to suicide along with a specially designed plastic bag for self-suffocation. Made in Ottawa, the bags are marketed for $30 (US) and offered along with a book on suicide drugs for $16 (US).

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2010/82/1082101

[waldo]

Someone needs to learn how to interpret data, rather than taking the word of bloggers on the internet.

clearly... in the face of your data analysis and the earlier posted graphed WHO data, the BC2004 charade has been busted.

[cybercoma]

I didn't notice that WHO data, if it was posted earlier. You can see that suicides declined following the registry in 1995, but primarily male suicide while female remained roughly the same. Men are more likely to kill themselves with firearms than women, so this makes sense.

[cybercoma]

Also, I would suspect the increase from '65 through '80 was driven by suicide rates in Quebec. The Quiet Revolution caused a great social upheaval. It was a time of tremendous change. This produces a state of lowered social regulation. It's a time when anything is possible. Durkheim believed this lack of social regulation lead to an increased suicide rate. When anything is possible and things are rapidly changing, life can lack a larger meaning.

I need to make a correction here. Earlier when I referenced anomic suicide, I made a mistake. I meant egoistic suicide. There's some debate surrounding the differences between the two. Egoistic suicide manifests itself when there is little social integration, while anomic suicide is associated with low social regulation. These are merely "ideal types" for understanding complex social meanings though. In reality there's overlap and you can't really make any claims about inviduals' choices. However, we can see a relationship between what Durkheim argued in 1897 and changes in national rates or the rates of suicide between particular social groups.

Long story short, the data that has been posted still seem to fit with theories that are over a century old.

[prairiechickin]

If you pay particular attention to 1996 (the year that the gun registry came into effect), you'll notice that the suicide rate was slightly trending upwards with a fairly significant decline after the registry came into effect (save for the anomaly during "Y2K" with an increase in suicides for 1999). This effect becomes even more dramatic when you look at the absolute numbers. Although they're somewhat lumpy, it is clear (save for "Y2K" again) that suicides were increasing. However, following 1996 there was a marked decline in the absolute numbers as well.

Someone needs to learn how to interpret data, rather than taking the word of bloggers on the internet.

I don't know what all that data means, stats isn't my strong suit, but you're missing something here. The gun registry had little effect on any of this beyond a certain number of guns that were cleared out of back closets by owners who didn't want the bother of registering them. The real impact on gun-related suicides came with the new storage regulations that came in around the same time, but had nothing to do with the registry itself. Whereas pre early-90s, gun owners often kept guns on a rack on the wall, or in an unlocked cabinet, most got more concientious about trigger locks and keeping the guns under lock and key with the ammo stored seperately. So after the early 90s there were just fewer guns sitting around where suicidal people could get at them, the registry was just a bunch of paperwork and had no effect on suicides.

[cybercoma]

The gun-control program is a package that contains all of those things. Registration ensures that gun-owners are accountable and keep their firearms secured. So, it doesn't matter whether it was registration or the new safety regulation. The gun-control program has obviously been effective, given the stats.

Edited January 10, 2012 by cybercoma

[prairiechickin]

The gun-control program is a package that contains all of those things. Registration ensures that gun-owners are accountable and keep their firearms secured. So, it doesn't matter whether it was registration or the new safety regulation. The gun-control program has obviously been effective, given the stats.

Effective at what, irritating the hell out of otherwise sensible gun owners? You said earlier in this thread that gun-related suicides are down, while other forms are up. So those intent on killing themselves just found some other means. Less mess to clean up I suppose, but if just as many people still end up dead I'm not sure what you think the "gun-control program" accomplished.

[bush_cheney2004]

clearly... in the face of your data analysis and the earlier posted graphed WHO data, the BC2004 charade has been busted.

Nope...but the waldo waltz continues. I don't know what is so hard about this...clearly suicides by means other than forearms increased since the 1990's. Now there are groups selling "exit bags", which helps explain what is meant by "self suffocation". Maybe you guys are trying too hard with all that "social regulation".

[cybercoma]

just as many people still end up dead

Clearly that's not the case from the statistics provided by bush_cheney2004.

[waldo]

...clearly suicides by means other than forearms increased since the 1990's.

you refuse to clearly identify and exactly articulate what data you are using to support your claim. You've now received two sources of data that clearly counter your claim.

[cybercoma]

Nope...but the waldo waltz continues. I don't know what is so hard about this...clearly suicides by means other than forearms increased since the 1990's. Now there are groups selling "exit bags", which helps explain what is meant by "self suffocation". Maybe you guys are trying too hard with all that "social regulation".

And people are less successful with other forms of suicide, hence the rate has been dropping.

You want to flaunt the failure of the gun-control program but refuse to reconcile your remarks with facts, such the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians finding that "since the implementation of Canada’s gun registry in 1995, there has been a significant reduction in firearm-related suicides and intimate partner homicides."

Further to that point, "In another study of about 400 women who used transition house or victim services in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, Doherty and a partner found that the presence of a gun made most of the women in that situation afraid to seek help. It is interesting to note that domestic homicides in the province are disproportionately common in rural areas, likely related to the presence of hunting guns in more rural than urban homes. Also interesting is that most murder-suicides occur in a rural area of the province."

The Canada Safety Council found that "a home where there are firearms is five times more likely to be the scene of a suicide than a home without a gun."

And finally, "The rate of successful suicide completions is far less for people who use other methods than using a gun. For example, 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs. These people are found alive 97% of the time. Those who succeed in using drugs to attempt suicide are successful only 3% of the time. By contrast, more than 90% of all suicide attempts by use of firearms are successful. The bottom line is that anyone using a gun to commit suicide is not likely to have their call for help heard and responded to before its too late." (source)

Edited January 10, 2012 by cybercoma

[Topaz]

BC, I usually don`t personal attack someone on the board, but just reading your comments on this topic, would make anyone think about do it! Thank God, not all Americans are like you! The important thing about this topic is that people feel the NEED to do themselves and or their family in, no matter what country they come from its SAD.

[bush_cheney2004]

And people are less successful with other forms of suicide, hence the rate has been dropping.

Except when it didn't, by your own admission but dismissal as "anomalies" and "Quebec" depression. This thread is about why the suicide rate is higher in Canada than in the United States, with the latter having far greater access to firearms useful for suicide.

You want to flaunt the failure of the gun-control program but refuse to reconcile your remarks with facts, such the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians finding that "since the implementation of Canada’s gun registry in 1995, there has been a significant reduction in firearm-related suicides and intimate partner homicides."

I provided you with data to that effect at the outset, yet you insisted on trying to hide the uptick in suicides by other methods. Why you chose to do this is obvious.

The bottom line is that anyone using a gun to commit suicide is not likely to have their call for help heard and responded to before its too late."

No, the bottom line is that gun control measures have not reduced the number of suicides by other means. This is not rocket science.

Edited January 10, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

you refuse to clearly identify and exactly articulate what data you are using to support your claim. You've now received two sources of data that clearly counter your claim.

OK....so that makes us even....Parliament's library data for the 90's vs. WHO data for the 00's. And common sense vs. your agenda. We can just pretend that Canadian "exit bags" don't exist, and blame BC_2004 for ever bringing it up in the first place.

[bush_cheney2004]

BC, I usually don`t personal attack someone on the board, but just reading your comments on this topic, would make anyone think about do it! Thank God, not all Americans are like you! The important thing about this topic is that people feel the NEED to do themselves and or their family in, no matter what country they come from its SAD.

Dear Topaz,

If that was your best personal attack, then I am not worried. This topic bites harder than the usual half-ass political BS that we discuss on a routine basis. (Some folks seem to get real excited about kiddie porn and child molesters too.) I found the suicide rate difference, while not huge, to be interesting given the very nature of "gun control" and "social regulation" in both countries.

Suicide is part of the human condition, and it has become a pawn in the gun control debate. There are far fewer homicides by firearms in both nations. But few wish to acknowledge this fact. That Canadians would resort to other creative ways to end it all is not debatable, despite the best (worst) efforts of some here.

Back in the 90's, my ex-university roommate planned to murder his entire family (wife + two kids), then commit suicide. He managed to kill his family, but couldn't bring himself to end his own life. He now sits in a state pen completing a life sentence. So based on your "feelings" about suicide, did this story have a happy ending?

Love,

BC_2004

[The_Squid]

I found the suicide rate difference, while not huge, to be interesting given the very nature of "gun control" and "social regulation" in both countries.

Not huge? Try insignificant....

Suicide is part of the human condition, and it has become a pawn in the gun control debate.

Gun control as a policy to try and stop suicides most likely doesn't work. Although, I have never seen any gun control advocate try and justify gun control as a means of suicide prevention. I think you may be blowing some smoke here...

A couple interesting reads on the topic:

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap/2006/rr06_2/rr06_2.pdf

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap/1998/wd98_4-dt98_4/index.html

From the above paper:

The observed correlation between firearm availability and suicide in general (Killias, 1993; 1993a; 1993b; 1996; Gabor, 1994; 1995) is not as solid as some might expect. In Canada, provincial comparisons of firearm ownership levels and overall rates of suicide found that levels of firearm ownership had no correlation with regional suicide rates (Carrington and Moyer, 1994a: 172). Furthermore, the Canadian rate of firearm suicides has dropped without evidence of a similar reduction in the rate of firearm ownership.

At the very least, this observation suggests that the overall availability of firearms is not the only factor that affects the suicide rate, or even the rate of firearm suicides. There are frequent variations in firearm suicide rates that cannot be attributed directly to a change in the availability of firearms or of alternate methods. Carrington and Moyer (1994) observed that in some provinces, the rate of suicides involving other methods has declined since 1978 in a manner similar to that of the firearm suicide rate. They discovered no obvious reason for this and none attributable directly to the prevalence of firearms or the existence of new firearm regulations.

On the other hand, the firearm suicide rate is higher where firearms are more widely available (Carrington and Moyer, 1994: 169; Dudley et al., 1996). A case-control study among members of a large health maintenance organization showed a positive association between the legal purchase of a handgun and a higher, long-lasting risk of violent death, including suicide (Cummings et al., 1997). While availability most certainly affects the choice of method (Beautrais and Joyce, 1996; Gabor, 1994: 39; 1995), it is equally clear that other factors, such as social customs or cultural acceptability, play a role in that decision.

In Australia, data on male suicide between 1992 and 1995 revealed noticeable changes in choices of suicide methods. The clear decrease in suicide by firearms was compensated by an increase in suicide by hanging, strangulation and suffocation. These changes did not seem to be accompanied by a change in the overall availability of firearms in the country (Mukherjee, 1997).

In Finland, an analysis of violent methods associated with the high and increasing suicide mortality rate among young adults aged 15 to 24 between 1965 and 1975 showed that firearms and hanging accounted for most of that increase (Ohberg et al., 1996). However, the authors stated that "these changes were not accompanied by similar changes in the availability of firearms during that period. Moreover, an increased total suicide rate as well as that by automobile exhaust fumes in young adults after 1982 coincided with a widely presented Finnish movie which featured this method of committing suicide"(Ibidem).

The main question is whether the increased availability of firearms is more likely to facilitate completed suicides. If it does, the overall rate of firearm ownership should be related to the rate of suicide. So far, however, the evidence about that particular hypothesis is contradictory (Gabor, 1994: 40-41) and mostly inconclusive. Perhaps this is because few studies were able to accurately measure changes in overall availability of firearms.

[waldo]

why has Canadian suicide by means other than firearms increased since the 1990's?

...clearly suicides by means other than forearms increased since the 1990's.

you refuse to clearly identify and exactly articulate what data you are using to support your claim. You've now received two sources of data that clearly counter your claim.

OK....so that makes us even....Parliament's library data for the 90's vs. WHO data for the 00's. And common sense vs. your agenda.

my agenda? Clearly, the only agenda here is yours. You have no real/legitimate interest in this topic... it was simply your juvenile reaction to the other recent thread that, apparently, had the audacity to speak to increased obesity rates, particularly in the U.S. - of course, when such an egregious injustice was done in singling out your country and comparisons were made to suggest a significant difference between Canada-U.S. obesity rates, you manufactured this thread as a measure of "comparative combativeness"... heelarious!

but let's recap: you initially trotted out 'some bloggers' magic (with the minimalist of term data) and presumed to suggest a legitimate trend existed. When you were called on that nonsense you began your diversion over "firearm vs. other"... here you dropped a link from noted Harper Conservative gun-registry advocate Garry Breitkreuz's web-site that referenced a letter including 90's Statistics Canada suicide data (1991-1999) - this 90's data (and only 90's data) became the basis for your repeated refrain that presumed to assert, "from the 90's to today"... based entirely upon 90's data - that's it, 90's data. Of course you didn't actually do any analysis on that 90's data, you simply ran with it.

subsequently you were countered with two separate data sources that countered your claim. As is your way, you attempt to weasel out... suggesting a balance between your "common sense" and my agenda! So, let's continue: available data from the Statistics Canada database runs from 2000-2008... I have coupled that currently available 2000-2008 Statistics Canada data with your linked website's 90s (1991-1999) data - with overall data, a scatter plot and applied linear regression trendline plot presented - here: even including the clear 1999 outlier, I trust you recognize what a downward sloping trendline means, hey? How do you like those agenda apples!

[bush_cheney2004]

Gun control as a policy to try and stop suicides most likely doesn't work. Although, I have never seen any gun control advocate try and justify gun control as a means of suicide prevention. I think you may be blowing some smoke here...

I certainly have, but then again I don't live in Canada. The sale of gun safes exploded largely on the legislated requirement of gun safety, unauthorized use, suicides, etc. Never understimate the power of marketing.

[bush_cheney2004]

... I trust you recognize what a downward sloping trendline means, hey? How do you like those agenda apples!

Quite remarkable really...how you can take a very simple and demonstrated datum from Canada and turn it into conflicted diarrhea just as you do for global warming. No wonder you never win these kind of arguments. Those "numbers guys" are so vexing!

I say again, suicides in Canada by means other than firearms have increased regardless of the current trend. If you don't like that, sue me.

Edited January 10, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

I have coupled that currently available 2000-2008 Statistics Canada data with your linked website's 90s (1991-1999) data - with overall data, a scatter plot and applied linear regression trendline plot presented - here: even including the clear 1999 outlier, I trust you recognize what a downward sloping trendline means, hey?

I say again, suicides in Canada by means other than firearms have increased regardless of the current trend. If you don't like that, sue me.

you can say whatever you want and say it while even (now) acknowledging you recognize your statement doesn't align with the actual trend. You can say whatever you want, as you ignore the multiple sample countering data, plots and trendlines presented to you. You can say whatever you want without actually providing substantive support for your statement. You can say whatever you want while claiming to provide 'merkin schooling'... you can say whatever you want!

[bush_cheney2004]

you can say whatever you want and say

Correct....this was always true regardless of the usual waldo waltz. If the trend is down, what is it down from? Do you also blame the peaks on Quebec? Take your time to think about that.

[waldo]

If the trend is down...

if? Really... if?

I have coupled that currently available 2000-2008 Statistics Canada data with your linked website's 90s (1991-1999) data - with overall data, a scatter plot and applied linear regression trendline plot presented -

here

: even including the clear 1999 outlier, I trust you recognize what a downward sloping trendline means, hey?

[bush_cheney2004]

if? Really... if?

I am typing as slow as I can for you....are there more or less suicides by means other than firearms since 1990? You are swimming upstream here, because Canada's population has increased, the gun registry and other restrictions have gone into effect, and some yahoos are selling exit bags on eBay. God luck!