Will Iran(again) interfere in the USA election?

[Guest American Woman]

Sorry AW. I've got your feathers ruffled and I think we just can't get past that.

I agree with you that within your own borders Americans have no need to learn about other countries. Yet you cannot deny that the resentment against "the ugly American" is real, not just in Canada but in many other countries, especially Europe.

My point is, "ugly" is no more exclusive to Americans than "polite" is exclusive to Canadians and neither is any more ugly or polite than the other - and that goes for other nations, too. As for "especially Europe," it may Europeans' problem, eh? - Sometimes the accusation says more about the accuser than the accused. I used to believe the stereotypes until I could see for myself that they are far from accurate.

Why? Because people in these countries don't see Americans in their own country. They see TOURISTS in THEIR country! And because these tourists tend to be much less educated about the country they're visiting than the people in those countries are about the USA, they stand out as an admittedly false example of Americans in general.

Again, the people who know more about the U.S. than Americans know about their country only know more because they are interested in how the U.S. affects them. It's not a great thirst for knowledge about the U.S. for the sake of knowledge - it's only because it affects them. I would wager that they don't know more about other countries, and as I said, I've been quite surprised regarding what quite a few people don't know about their own countries. "Ignorance," like "ugly" and "polite," are pretty much evenly distributed in this world. Furthermore, what Europeans think means no more than what the rest of the world thinks. Their opinion doesn't trump other nations' opinons.

You see, you are quite right that because America is bigger and stronger it gets more attention. What you may not see so easily is that when you are smaller and weaker you are naturally defensive about it! By being unaware of this, Americans tend to ruffle OTHER countries feathers!

It sounds to me as if that problem is stemming from the people whose feathers are ruffled. If other countries are "naturally defensive," that's their problem. You think Americans are obligated to walk on eggshells so as not to offend while anything and everything is thrown our way? I don't care that my country is more powerful - I'm just a person the same as anyone from any other country.

I'm surprised that all this seems to both surprise and offend you so much, AW.

And you wouldn't be offended if I were to perpetuate negative, untrue stereotypes of Canadians?

To me, it has been such an obvious fact all my life as to exact no comment! It's like the sun rising in the east - a fact so mundane as to be unremarked.

Once again, it's NOT a "fact;" it's a perception, stereotypes. I could put forth a lot of negative perceptions about Canada, but I know they aren't true and I certainly have no need to do so.

You folks should count yourselves fortunate, AW. What do you think is the popular conception of Canadians in YOUR country?

Everyone I know has a high opinion of Canada. I don't know of anyone who has a negative opinion, and I've sure never heard anyone cutting Canadians down or calling them a joke for not presenting the news in the same order we do, for example. It really leaves me baffled.

350 lb French Canadians on your Florida beaches, wearing thong bathing suits! That's what!

Never heard that one.

You have no right to complain!

Actually, yeah, I do. Just as you'd have the right to complain if I were perpetuating negative perceptions and stereotypes of Canada, especially as "fact."

Remember, despite this misconception we Canadians still love you! We've proved that time and time again in our mutual history, most recently with getting your hostages out of Iran and lately in Gander, NFLD when all the planes were grounded during 9/1/11.

We're sorry we sent you Justin Bieber! Honest!

And we've proved our love of Canadians, while not having shows making fun of you and not laughing at how stupid y'all are.

You feel the way you do, and it's obvious nothing is going to change your perceptions. I'm just telling you how it looks from this side of the border.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... I would wager that they don't know more about other countries, and as I said, I've been quite surprised regarding what quite a few people don't know about their own countries. "Ignorance," like "ugly" and "polite," are pretty much evenly distributed in this world.....

Yes...I will second this observation based on demonstrated ignorance between/by regions in Canada, and even more surprising to me, the wholesale adoption of American media and context when Canadians communicate with each other, as if America is a handy universal reference to bridge their divide. Member MH and I have previously discussed this very point: the American hegemon has become not only the foil to define a "not American" Canadian identity, but even more perversely, must be more thoroughly explored and understood to do so. The "stupid Americans" have no such burden or cultural neurosis.

It sounds to me as if that problem is stemming from the people whose feathers are ruffled. If other countries are "naturally defensive," that's their problem. You think Americans are obligated to walk on eggshells so as not to offend while anything and everything is thrown our way? I don't care that my country is more powerful - I'm just a person the same as anyone from any other country.

True...Canadian style political correctness does not apply to Christians or Americans.

You feel the way you do, and it's obvious nothing is going to change your perceptions. I'm just telling you how it looks from this side of the border.

This is a perspective that Canadians rarely get, as most Americans don't think twice about Canada. Sometimes these rants directed at America specifically by Canadians reminds me of Glenn Close's line in Fatal Attraction...."I will not be ignored!"

[Wild Bill]

It sounds to me as if that problem is stemming from the people whose feathers are ruffled. If other countries are "naturally defensive," that's their problem. You think Americans are obligated to walk on eggshells so as not to offend while anything and everything is thrown our way? I don't care that my country is more powerful - I'm just a person the same as anyone from any other country.

Everyone I know has a high opinion of Canada. I don't know of anyone who has a negative opinion, and I've sure never heard anyone cutting Canadians down or calling them a joke for not presenting the news in the same order we do, for example. It really leaves me baffled.

And we've proved our love of Canadians, while not having shows making fun of you and not laughing at how stupid y'all are.

I think we are talking from two different directions here, AW. I'm talking about the existence of certain perceptions. You seem to be saying that we should pay no attention to them, because they are wrong or that people SHOULDN'T hold them!

To me, the world is the way it is and it is never a positive thing to simply try to ignore it or tell people the way things OUGHT to be!

Anyhow, we have a difference of opinion that we are not likely to resolve. I find it strange to be championing these perceptions, when they have not entirely been my own. I recognize them in my own culture but life has educated me away from them, simply by having the opportunity to meet and talk with many Americans. Perhaps one of the strongest influences was becoming a ham radio operator and talking to so many American radio operators. When you can chat with people all over the world on virtually any day you tend to glean a much better knowledge of the world's geography and people living in different cultures.

It's also possible that those popular stereotypes are products of the past more than today, despite Rick Mercer's schtick. Television and media have greatly expanded the ken of the average man or woman, in most countries save perhaps those like North Korea.

I may be dated in my opinion, I'm willing to admit, AW. After all, I AM old!

[waldo]

You feel the way you do, and it's obvious nothing is going to change your perceptions. I'm just telling you how it looks from this side of the border.

your reaction is quite telling. You've taken exception... you've taken it personally. Why? Surely you don't include yourself in the target segment criticism... do you? I will most certainly offer my personal anecdote that aligns quite closely with Wild Bill's. I've worked in the U.S.; I've traveled extensively throughout the U.S.; I've vacationed in several areas of the U.S.; I have visited U.S. relatives many times over in several states; I have traveled globally (both business and vacation) encountering many Americans abroad... the single-most take away I have concerning Americans is that... most Americans I have encountered are very unknowing of the world at large - they are most certainly insular... and very narrow-minded, don't take criticism well and have significant confidence/identity issues. Why there's even one prolific posting American on this board who has such confidence and identity issues that he perpetually highlights when Canadian posters draw reference to/from anything American.

[sharkman]

your reaction is quite telling. You've taken exception... you've taken it personally. Why? Surely you don't include yourself in the target segment criticism... do you? I will most certainly offer my personal anecdote that aligns quite closely with Wild Bill's. I've worked in the U.S.; I've traveled extensively throughout the U.S.; I've vacationed in several areas of the U.S.; I have visited U.S. relatives many times over in several states; I have traveled globally (both business and vacation) encountering many Americans abroad... the single-most take away I have concerning Americans is that... most Americans I have encountered are very unknowing of the world at large - they are most certainly insular... and very narrow-minded, don't take criticism well and have significant confidence/identity issues. Why there's even one prolific posting American on this board who has such confidence and identity issues that he perpetually highlights when Canadian posters draw reference to/from anything American.

I've read the perceptions of Americans in this forum over the years, and much of it depends, I think, on the politics of the viewer. This is unfortunate, because it limits the poster's experiences when interacting with Americans.

But the notion that all or most Americans are narrow-minded or some other trait reveals a view that is not worth trusting, because Americans are of every strip under the sun, just like every other nation. I'm sure the British Empire or the Roman Empire had such barbs aimed at them too. In the end it matters little, sticks and stones and all that.

[bush_cheney2004]

....But the notion that all or most Americans are narrow-minded or some other trait reveals a view that is not worth trusting, because Americans are of every strip under the sun, just like every other nation. I'm sure the British Empire or the Roman Empire had such barbs aimed at them too. In the end it matters little, sticks and stones and all that.

True...if only because many millions of today's Americans emigrated from other nations, and others still have lived for many years outside of the USA.

[Wild Bill]

True...if only because many millions of today's Americans emigrated from other nations, and others still have lived for many years outside of the USA.

And despite all, BC, one has to recognize that the lineup to get INTO America is always huge, where the lineup to leave is virtually non-existent.

I blame much of that on Krispy Kreme doughnuts! You can't get them outside America!

[bush_cheney2004]

And despite all, BC, one has to recognize that the lineup to get INTO America is always huge, where the lineup to leave is virtually non-existent.

Foreign born Americans are a larger population than all of Canada. Generalizations about Americans are no more accurate than for Canadians. I posted some time ago that somebody in America must know something, otherwise it would not be the global hegemon.

I blame much of that on Krispy Kreme doughnuts! You can't get them outside America!

Yes you can....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krispy_Kreme_operations_by_country

Amazing that those "stupid, insular" Americans would do such a thing!

Edited January 2, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[jbg]

When you post evil american lies I'm one to pick up on them. It's bad enough that your country slaughtered millions of Iraqis on false pretenses, and now you try to perpetuate the lies with excuses. Is it any wonder the rest of the world sees the US as the modern day Nazi aggressor state.

First of all, to the best of my knowledge Sharkman is a Canadian. Second of all, my country did not "(slaughter) millions of Iraqis", "on false pretenses" or otherwise. The death toll was far lower. As far as "pretenses" Saddam did not make the weapons inspection program easy. Quite the contrary. He made it an obstacle course, and repeatedly made bellicose threats. Don't forget, during the 1991 war he fired SCUD missiles at Israel. Saddam was not entitled to lie, and then operate under the assumption that he knew he was lying. Actions and words have consequences.

Frankly, the West should be making it abundantly clear that no non-Western power will get nukes or other WMD's. North Korea and Pakistan are bad enough.

Regardless of whether you are talking to someone else, I'll always pick up on your lies when I see them. That's the way it works around here and you have no power to change it. What are you going to do, bomb me from 30,000'?

Screen name on screen name bombing runs?

[Guest Manny]

And despite all, BC, one has to recognize that the lineup to get INTO America is always huge, where the lineup to leave is virtually non-existent.

During Roman Empire many people would have wanted to live in Rome. Because once you were in you had everything, all the luxuries and the best, of which was plundered from the outside. That didn't make Rome "good".

[waldo]

... most Americans I have encountered are very unknowing of the world at large - they are most certainly insular... and very narrow-minded, don't take criticism well and have significant confidence/identity issues.

But the notion that all or most Americans are narrow-minded or some other trait reveals a view that is not worth trusting, because Americans are of every strip under the sun, just like every other nation. I'm sure the British Empire or the Roman Empire had such barbs aimed at them too. In the end it matters little, sticks and stones and all that.

are you being purposely obtuse? I, as did Wild Bill, offered a personal viewpoint based on personal experience and personal observation. As for your personal summary "trust" assessment, it holds no more weight/bearing than the expressed personal viewpoints you seem to take exception to. Yes, most certainly, I've experienced all manner of, as you say, "Americans of every strip under the sun". But, again, the single-most take-away I have of all the Americans I've met, whether in the States or abroad, is a generalized assessment that, 'most of those I have met/worked with', have been rather unknowing of the world at large... that single statement can be expounded on many times over.

[sharkman]

are you being purposely obtuse? I, as did Wild Bill, offered a personal viewpoint based on personal experience and personal observation. As for your personal summary "trust" assessment, it holds no more weight/bearing than the expressed personal viewpoints you seem to take exception to. Yes, most certainly, I've experienced all manner of, as you say, "Americans of every strip under the sun". But, again, the single-most take-away I have of all the Americans I've met, whether in the States or abroad, is a generalized assessment that, 'most of those I have met/worked with', have been rather unknowing of the world at large... that single statement can be expounded on many times over.

After going over my post I am comfortable with what I said. Anytime someone generalizes in describing all or most people of a culture, you can't take it seriously. You saw what your preconceived notions led you to see, or something to that effect.

I have had the experience of working with many Canadians across the country, and we certainly have our share of simpletons, rude arrogant people as well as thoughtful, smart, and savvy types. My wife is a high school teacher and has mentioned how many students don't even know who the premier of the province is, or the PM. Sad but true.

Edited January 2, 2012 by sharkman

[Guest American Woman]

After going over my post I am comfortable with what I said. Anytime someone generalizes in describing all or most people of a culture, you can't take it seriously. You saw what your preconceived notions led you to see, or something to that effect.

I have had the experience of working with many Canadians across the country, and we certainly have our share of simpletons, rude arrogant people as well as thoughtful, smart, and savvy types. My wife is a high school teacher and has mentioned how many students don't even know who the premier of the province is, or the PM. Sad but true.

Well said. Thank you.

Anyone who thinks their "personal experience" allows them to generalize a population of 300+ million is pretty ignorant themselves. As I said, I've had run-ins with people who have no clue about their own nation, much less other nations, as well as people who are polite and people who are rude to the max. I don't say, 'well there's an ignorant, rude/polite nation;' it just confirms that every nation has its share of ignorant, polite, and ugly.

As for your example re: your wife's students, I believe it. During one visit to Toronto, my sister, brother-in-law, and I were in a pub and we were trying to name all of the provinces/territories. We were in disagreement as to how many there even were, so we asked the bartender - who didn't know - who asked the customers at large - and no one knew. If Americans in such a situation didn't know how many states we have, Americans would be confirmed as the dummies of the world.

As I pointed out before, Rick Mercer isn't putting the Americans who know the answers on his show - just those who don't, and even among those, he's choosing those who come across as the most ignorant. And I still question how such a show came to be in the first place. Seems to me there's a real desire by some to present and perceive Americans as stupid (and rude) and it says more about them than it does us.

I can just imagine the reaction if the U.S. had been the one to come up with such a show, with "Talking to Canadians," making fun of, laughing at, Canadians - concluding that they are more stupid than Americans.

One more example - whenever I travel, the only flags I see on backpacks, the only ones pulling out big-ass flags to have their picture taken with, are Canadians. I pointed this out to my daughter in South America last year, and we both agreed that no American could ever get away with doing that. When Canadians do it - it's fun; if Americans were to do it - it would be judged arrogant and disgust-worthy.

It's not so much that Americans are this, that, or the other thing - but the fact that Americans are put under a microscope and must tread on eggshells or be negatively judged by this ilk.

[jbg]

I have had the experience of working with many Canadians across the country, and we certainly have our share of simpletons, rude arrogant people as well as thoughtful, smart, and savvy types. My wife is a high school teacher and has mentioned how many students don't even know who the premier of the province is, or the PM. Sad but true.

Rick Mercer has shown that many Americans don't know who the President of Canada is or how many States Canada has. They can't even identify any of those States' governors.

Sad but true.

[Wild Bill]

One more example - whenever I travel, the only flags I see on backpacks, the only ones pulling out big-ass flags to have their picture taken with, are Canadians. I pointed this out to my daughter in South America last year, and we both agreed that no American could ever get away with doing that. When Canadians do it - it's fun; if Americans were to do it - it would be judged arrogant and disgust-worthy.

Oh AW, Have you ever got this wrong! Again, please try not to get your feathers ruffled. I'm simply pointing out what I believe to be true. The right and the wrong of it is subject to opinion. I'm just making the claim that it exists in the first place!

Again, I speak from the hippy days of my youth. I grant that things may be better now, but I doubt it.

Backpacking across Europe was extremely popular when I was a lad. We Canadians wore prominent Canadian flags for one simple reason - Canadians were treated much better than Americans!

The attitude against Americans was quite real. Again, I make no claim as to its being justified. It was an actual fact that ordinary citizens, shopkeepers, and whomever one came in contact with treated the young Americans poorly. They also would invariably assume anyone speaking English with a non-British accent must be an American. So the wearing of a Canadian flag was a ticket to much better treatment.

In fact, we all had the experience of meeting others with flags on their Demim jackets or backpacks who were actually American! They were just posing as Canadians, to avoid poor treatment.

I realize this may be hard for you to believe, especially when you are no doubt far too young to remember those times.

[punked]

After going over my post I am comfortable with what I said. Anytime someone generalizes in describing all or most people of a culture, you can't take it seriously. You saw what your preconceived notions led you to see, or something to that effect.

I have had the experience of working with many Canadians across the country, and we certainly have our share of simpletons, rude arrogant people as well as thoughtful, smart, and savvy types. My wife is a high school teacher and has mentioned how many students don't even know who the premier of the province is, or the PM. Sad but true.

Like when someone makes a post about a country and its peoples motivations with out actually knowing anything about them? If Waldo was talking about Iran or Iranians I think you post would say a different thing am I wrong?

[Guest American Woman]

Oh AW, Have you ever got this wrong! Again, please try not to get your feathers ruffled. I'm simply pointing out what I believe to be true. The right and the wrong of it is subject to opinion. I'm just making the claim that it exists in the first place!

No, you were doing more than making a claim that such perceptions/stereotypes exist. You were perpetuating them, based on your observations/beliefs.

Again, I speak from the hippy days of my youth. I grant that things may be better now, but I doubt it.

Why would you assume that things haven't changed over the course of twenty+ years?

Backpacking across Europe was extremely popular when I was a lad. We Canadians wore prominent Canadian flags for one simple reason - Canadians were treated much better than Americans!

Which to me says a lot. If they didn't like you for who you were, if they only liked you because you weren't American and they didn't even know that you weren't by your actions but only by the flag on your backpack, I would say that THEY are the ones with the problem. Good grief. It's so obvious that if they simply dislike someone because of their presumed nationality or do like someone just because of their nationality, that they are biased.

The attitude against Americans was quite real. Again, I make no claim as to its being justified. It was an actual fact that ordinary citizens, shopkeepers, and whomever one came in contact with treated the young Americans poorly. They also would invariably assume anyone speaking English with a non-British accent must be an American. So the wearing of a Canadian flag was a ticket to much better treatment.

Things apparently have changed, because no one assumes I am an American. But the fact of the matter is, no one assumed it when I went to Europe for the first time when I was 19, either. Not that I was treated badly back then, either. In fact, Americans were rather doted on. Perhaps the problem existed in the minds of the backpack set? Of course at times I've been looked down upon by some for being American in recent years, but I've also seen Canadians looked down upon for "being the same as Americans - you're all the same" and I haven't seen the British perceived as any better. On the flip side, sometimes my identifying myself as American brings about a shift in attitude towards the better.

In fact, we all had the experience of meeting others with flags on their Demim jackets or backpacks who were actually American! They were just posing as Canadians, to avoid poor treatment.

I would never pretend to be anything I'm not to get better treatment. Why would I care about what biased people who prejudge solely on nationality think? To my mind, those people are no better than bigots. But about those flags. I'm sure, as a Canadian, people abroad speak candidly to you about Americans, but the reverse is also true - they speak candidly to us Americans about Canadians, and that flag on your backpack is sometimes the butt of jokes.

I realize this may be hard for you to believe, especially when you are no doubt far too young to remember those times.

Again, I'm aware.

[waldo]

Anyone who thinks their "personal experience" allows them to generalize a population of 300+ million is pretty ignorant themselves.

again, you've personalized and taken exception to the explicitly referenced personnel viewpoints that inherently hold the explicitly expressed caveats... "based on personal experience and personal observation... generalized assessment... most of those encountered...".

[waldo]

After going over my post I am comfortable with what I said. Anytime someone generalizes in describing all or most people of a culture, you can't take it seriously. You saw what your preconceived notions led you to see, or something to that effect.

you earlier mentioned the word "trust"... that you couldn't trust an expressed personal viewpoint. I suggested your personal summary trust assessment held, "no more weight/bearing than the expressed personal viewpoints you seem to take exception to". So you decide to double down!

at what point are your stated notions conceived? At what point do conceived notions become preconceived? How are notions (preconceived or not) either reinforced or adjusted/countered? As are you, I am also quite comfortable with what I stated; again:

...

most

Americans

I have encountered

are very unknowing of the world at large - they are most certainly insular... and very narrow-minded, don't take criticism well and have significant confidence/identity issues.

you've taken my personal expression, my personal viewpoint and extended upon it, yourself. I thought I was quite clear in tempering my language with cautious reservation... you speak in broader all-inclusive terms; terms of, as you say, "all or most people of a culture". I've been quite clear in drawing reference to, "most of those I've encountered". You seem drawn to project my personal viewpoint as being one representative of the greater American population, at large? Perhaps your own preconceived notions are influencing you, ya think?

[waldo]

But about those flags. I'm sure, as a Canadian, people abroad speak candidly to you about Americans, but the reverse is also true - they speak candidly to us Americans about Canadians, and that flag on your backpack is sometimes the butt of jokes.

Again, I'm aware.

as you're aware? Oh my!

why, I hear tell Americans were actually sewing a Canadian flag on their backpacks to get away from their concerns over the stereotypical 'ugly American abroad' labeling... as I'm aware!

[Guest Peeves]

The question then remains, do we have Reagan's resolve should they press?

Tehran's Hollow Hormuz Strait Threat - Michael Rubin

While the threat from a resurgent Iran is real, its bluster about closing the Strait of Hormuz is more diversion than danger. The waterway may be an economic chokehold, but it is also a vital passage for Iran's survival. Any Iranian challenge to the strait would be suicide. When the Iranian government mined the Persian Gulf in 1988, damaging a U.S. guided missile frigate, President Ronald Reagan launched Operation Preying Mantis, simultaneously attacking two Iranian oil platforms. In the surrounding firefight, Iran lost a frigate, a gunboat, three speedboats and, temporarily, two oil platforms. The U.S. lost one helicopter, the casualty of a crash rather than battle damage. The writer is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. (New York Daily News)

[sharkman]

The question then remains, do we have Reagan's resolve should they press?

After it came out that Obama held back on taking out Osama for months, I have my doubts. But at this point, all that's happening is gamesmanship. Iran threatening on one front while inviting negotiations on another. Although it could be argued that they should have been bombed by now to remove the nuclear threat.

[waldo]

After it came out that Obama held back on taking out Osama for months...

I've run into this suggestion many times over... it's been called out on a few other boards I frequent. I've not seen a single reputable source attribution for this suggestion. If you're aware of one...

as an aside, I quite favour this Obama response to the latest running GOP talking point on his supposed 'appeasement'..... "or whoever's left out there"!

[eyeball]

I've run into this suggestion many times over... it's been called out on a few other boards I frequent. I've not seen a single reputable source attribution for this suggestion. If you're aware of one...

as an aside, I quite favour this Obama response to the latest running GOP talking point on his supposed 'appeasement'..... "or whoever's left out there"!

I'd feel a lot better about Obama if he'd only shut down that POW camp in Guantanamo like he promised.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'd feel a lot better about Obama if he'd only shut down that POW camp in Guantanamo like he promised.

Really? I didn't feel better or worse when Canada indefinitely detained nationals using "Security Certificates" going back to 1979, long before anything Bush, Obama, or Osama!