Alberta Oil Sands

[lukin]

I have a couple of questions that I'm sure a few of the wise people who frequent this forum can answer.

Let's say the David Suzuki/Al Gore types, along with dubious organizations like the World Wildlife Fund and Greenpeace got their wish and the Alberta Oil sands were permanently shut down. What impact would shutting the oil sands down have on the Canadian economy? How would shutting the oil sands affect the average Canadian? Simple questions I need answered.

[Michael Hardner]

National Post article

“Mr. Speaker, the NDP members should stop taking the side of the extremists who want to kill Canadian jobs,” said Tory MP David Anderson, parliamentary secretary to Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver. “They have made it clear they want to shutter our new development of the oil sands. They are willing to destroy hundreds of thousands of jobs across the country.”

He said the oil sands employ 130,000 people directly and supports a total of 390,000 jobs across Canada.

There's an answer.

[lukin]

National Post article

There's an answer.

Wow! shutting down the oil sands would have catastrophic consequences on the Canadian economy. I'm sure many pension plans would be negatively affected too, right Michael?

Why Michael, are you a supporter of the David Suzuki types. You seem to have too much common sense to support the radical environmentalist. Or am i wrong...about the common sense?

[Topaz]

When are the oil sands suppose to be done and what happens to those jobs when there's no more oil sands?

[fellowtraveller]

When are the oil sands suppose to be done and what happens to those jobs when there's no more oil sands?

fifty to one hundred years of extractable oil with current technology.

Ask your grandchildren about their plans for those jobs. Maybe the buggy whip or typewriter manufacturers will need help. On the service side, there may be a shortage of elevator operators. Really, who knows?

[GostHacked]

fifty to one hundred years of extractable oil with current technology.

Ask your grandchildren about their plans for those jobs. Maybe the buggy whip or typewriter manufacturers will need help. On the service side, there may be a shortage of elevator operators. Really, who knows?

Actually it's not a question for the grandchildren as it is a question for us in what we leave behind for our grandchildren.

[Shwa]

There's an answer.

That is a 1-3 ratio between direct and indirect jobs.

The Cod Fishery collapse caused the loss of 40,000 jobs, a number I read often. Using the 1-3 that is 40k jobs + 120k undirect.

The over-exploitation and mismanagement of fisheries has already led to some spectacular fisheries collapses. The cod fishery off Newfoundland, Canada collapsed in 1992, leading to the loss of some 40,000 jobs in the industry.

Collapse of the Northern Cod Fishery

The moratorium in 1992 marked the largest industrial closure in Canadian history. In Newfoundland alone, over 35,000 fishers and plant workers from over 400 coastal communities became unemployed. In response to dire warnings of social and economic consequences, the federal government intervened, initially providing income assistance through the Northern Cod Adjustment and Recovery Program, and later through the Atlantic Groundfish Strategy, which included money specifically for the retraining of those workers displaced by the closing of the fishery. Newfoundland has since experienced a dramatic environmental, industrial, economic, and social restructuring, including considerable outmigration, but also increased economic diversification, an increased emphasis on education, and the emergence of a thriving invertebrates fishing industry (as the predatory groundfish population declined, snow crab and northern shrimp proliferated, providing the basis for a new industry that is roughly equivalent in economic value as the cod fishery it replaced).

On a national economic scale the impact was minimal and the Canadian economy kept chugging along. No national disaster, no apocalypse, no wholesale destruction of our country. It was a blip and we all helped out our Atlantic cousins until they got back on their feet.

[Boges]

On a national economic scale the impact was minimal and the Canadian economy kept chugging along. No national disaster, no apocalypse, no wholesale destruction of our country. It was a blip and we all helped out our Atlantic cousins until they got back on their feet.

Didn't they get back on their feet because Oil was found offshore of Newfieland?

[dre]

This thread seems to be pretty much ignorant of reality in terms of the relationship between environmentalists, industrialists, and the government.

The idea that "David Suzuki types" are going to shut down the oilsands is really just stupid. Thats not gonna happen. If environmentalists lobby hard enough then they MIGHT get some concessions from the government and the oil industry but the best they can ever hope for is that it might be done in a way thats a little bit more environmentally friendly. They arent going to stop this industrial activity from continuing because at the end of the day government has be elected by a population whos number one concern is the economy.

Thread = silly.

[Shwa]

Didn't they get back on their feet because Oil was found offshore of Newfieland?

providing the basis for a new industry that is roughly equivalent in economic value as the cod fishery it replaced

Here, I am simply copying from the quoted text in my post, which is directly above yours. It also mentions "economic diversification" too including the Hibernia oil field.

[fellowtraveller]

Here, I am simply copying from the quoted text in my post, which is directly above yours. It also mentions "economic diversification" too including the Hibernia oil field.

Newfoundland got back on its feet by moving a big chunk of its skilled workforce to Alberta to work in Fort MacMurray.

[Shwa]

Newfoundland got back on its feet by moving a big chunk of its skilled workforce to Alberta to work in Fort MacMurray.

Really? Sending all their money home and the like, building up the old Newf economy? That's very interesting. Of the 35,000 in Newfoundland that lost their jobs, how many ended up in Alberta? Do you have any numbers?

[Michael Hardner]

You seem to have too much common sense to support the radical environmentalist. Or am i wrong...about the common sense?

I make my mind up on things based on the facts, on a case by case basis.

[fellowtraveller]

Really? Sending all their money home and the like, building up the old Newf economy? That's very interesting. Of the 35,000 in Newfoundland that lost their jobs, how many ended up in Alberta? Do you have any numbers?

I don't know if they sent money home, but they earned and spent a lot in AB. I live in Alberta and used to live in Fort MacMurray, and both are full of Newfies and other Maritimers. Their stories are the same as all the many others who came here from all over: need a job. There were so many that they started direct jet flights daily for worker commuters from the small and otherwise unconnected communities of Fort Mac and St Johns NFLD. The Maritime Club in FM used to be infamous for having the best parties evah.

Anybody who has lived in FM or AB can tell you how noticeable their presence is, a welcome presence too as they come to work.

Last year there were reports of rising real estate prices in NFLD, and the reason was demand from Alberta. Many Newfs moved here in the 70s/80s and are now retiring back home, caused a mini-boom there.

[Shwa]

Newfoundland got back on its feet by moving a big chunk of its skilled workforce to Alberta to work in Fort MacMurray.

I don't know if they sent money home, but they earned and spent a lot in AB. I live in Alberta and used to live in Fort MacMurray, and both are full of Newfies and other Maritimers. Their stories are the same as all the many others who came here from all over: need a job.

OK, so... Newfoundlaners, moving to Alberta to work and live and spending "a lot" in Alberta, were somehow responsible for Newfoundland getting "back on it's feet?" Is this the new math?

There were so many that they started direct jet flights daily for worker commuters from the small and otherwise unconnected communities of Fort Mac and St Johns NFLD. The Maritime Club in FM used to be infamous for having the best parties evah.

That's great. But if they are spending their money on clubs and parties in Alberta, how would this contribute to the economy of Newf?

Anybody who has lived in FM or AB can tell you how noticeable their presence is, a welcome presence too as they come to work.

Last year there were reports of rising real estate prices in NFLD, and the reason was demand from Alberta. Many Newfs moved here in the 70s/80s and are now retiring back home, caused a mini-boom there.

So instead of those Newfoundlander workers in Alberta getting Newf back on its feet after the Cod fishery collapse, they are really only responsible for a "mini-boom." And since the workers causing this mini-boom, went to Alberta "in the 70's/80's" which is prior to the date of the fishery being closed in 1992, it wasn't even that "big chunk of its skilled workforce" that moved there after the fishery was closed.

Does that about sum it up?

[fellowtraveller]

I'll make it simple for you, though I regret I cannot use words of less than one syllable.

Let's say there are 40,000 cod fishermen in Nfld.

The cod fishery collapses. All are unemployed.

20,000 move to AB and find work.

20,000 remain unemployed.

Hibernia happens, and needs 20,000 workers.

There are 20,000 workers available, not 40,000 (notice what happened there) and NFLD enjoys near full employment in good jobs for everybody. Just not in Nfld.

Oh, and the cod fishery was in deep shit for decades before 1992, the exodus used to be to the wasteland of Toronto until that ship sailed. And of course, the work in AB has now attracted successive generations from the Maritimes, not just the 70s generation.

[Shwa]

I'll make it simple for you, though I regret I cannot use words of less than one syllable.

No need to get testy because I pointed out you make false assertions and can't back them up.

Let's say there are 40,000 cod fishermen in Nfld.

The cod fishery collapses. All are unemployed.

20,000 move to AB and find work.

20,000 remain unemployed.

Except you have no idea about the numbers of Newfoundlanders that went to work in Alberta. Now I will grant that you do seem to have reasonable knowledge about the culture that they brought with them, including their social clubs and parties. But let's be clear here fellowtraveller: a few social clubs and parties in Fort MacMurray does'nt equate to "20,000" workers.

Hibernia happens, and needs 20,000 workers.

There are 20,000 workers available, not 40,000 (notice what happened there) and NFLD enjoys near full employment in good jobs for everybody. Just not in Nfld.

Ah, the new math again.

Oh, and the cod fishery was in deep shit for decades before 1992, the exodus used to be to the wasteland of Toronto until that ship sailed. And of course, the work in AB has now attracted successive generations from the Maritimes, not just the 70s generation.

That's nice. But the fact remains that you still haven't proven or provided any sort of coherent evidence that the "chunk of workers" from Newf working in Alberta are responsible for NFLD getting "back on it's feet" after the Cod fishery collapse in 1992. Not even close.

[jacee]

An aside ...

A survey showed that Alberta has more unhappy people than other provinces.

When asked why they were unhappy they said it's because ...

... They miss Newfoundland.

(Joke ...credit 22 minutes )

Edited January 1, 2012 by jacee

[sharkman]

I don't know if they sent money home, but they earned and spent a lot in AB. I live in Alberta and used to live in Fort MacMurray, and both are full of Newfies and other Maritimers. Their stories are the same as all the many others who came here from all over: need a job. There were so many that they started direct jet flights daily for worker commuters from the small and otherwise unconnected communities of Fort Mac and St Johns NFLD. The Maritime Club in FM used to be infamous for having the best parties evah.

Anybody who has lived in FM or AB can tell you how noticeable their presence is, a welcome presence too as they come to work.

Last year there were reports of rising real estate prices in NFLD, and the reason was demand from Alberta. Many Newfs moved here in the 70s/80s and are now retiring back home, caused a mini-boom there.

Yeah, Alberta has lots of Newfies, I've not been in FM yet, but any project I've been involved in in the west had lots of 'em. Lots from Ontario too as it's been pretty slow there. Glad to hear it's helping Newfoundland economically, they need it.

[Alberta is Canada]

If we were to let the likes of David Suzuki "run" our country with their green initiatives in the past, there would literally be no industrialization. As a result There would be no means to even create universities to educate him on nature or the environment. We would be in the dark ages......

While most energy companies are making strong initiatives to reduce their carbon footprint, this never seems to be enough. These people provide no solution to the huge demand of oil consumption that is the USA, apart from complaining like a middle-aged divorced woman. The fact is until USA stops using oil or we "find" an alternative source there will be a thirst for oil that Mr. Suzuki and his childrens children can not stop, plain and simple.

The environmental people need to open their eyes to reality.... they cant stop anything... regardless of which celebrity they have on their team, Big Oil has deep pockets.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Alberta is Canada

[waldo]

While most energy companies are making strong initiatives to reduce their carbon footprint, this never seems to be enough.

you can expand if desired; however, in keeping with this threads tar sands focus, why not highlight what actual... actual... "strong initiatives" have been deployed in regards to the tar sands? Careful now, you'll need to properly cite your claims.

These people provide no solution to the huge demand of oil consumption that is the USA, apart from complaining like a middle-aged divorced woman. The fact is until USA stops using oil or we "find" an alternative source there will be a thirst for oil that Mr. Suzuki and his childrens children can not stop, plain and simple.

you appear to be a typical neophyte, one who quite liberally throws around like Suzuki/Gore go-to references. Take some time to educate yourself about just how weening off the oil-teet is actually being envisioned... they're called 40-50 year roadmaps, that even at the end of the road also include a path for continued fossil-fuel reliance... a reduced one.

The environmental people need to open their eyes to reality.... they cant stop anything... regardless of which celebrity they have on their team, Big Oil has deep pockets.

you'll have to broaden your views on "environmental people"... you know, beyond Hollywood celebrities. I understand there are even scientists being considered as "environmental people" - go figure. Perhaps you'd like to offer comment on the significant Nebraska public resistance to the KXL pipeline - do you consider those highly profiled ranchers/farmers as "environmental people"?

[sharkman]

I just read a story about Alberta's economy, apparently they are headed for boom again, partly driven by the oil industry. The big wheel keeps turning and technology keeps lessening the enviro concerns. You won't be able to convert the stubborn environmentalists, but the reasonable ones will change their tune eventually.

[prairiechickin]

The environmental people need to open their eyes to reality.... they cant stop anything... regardless of which celebrity they have on their team, Big Oil has deep pockets.

"They" seem to have done a good job of stalling that pipeline to Texas.

[waldo]

I just read a story about Alberta's economy, apparently they are headed for boom again, partly driven by the oil industry. The big wheel keeps turning and technology keeps lessening the enviro concerns. You won't be able to convert the stubborn environmentalists, but the reasonable ones will change their tune eventually.

as you're a member of the self-avowed AGW/CC denying MLW vocal minority, it would be insightful to realize exactly what determiners are used to qualify a "stubborn environmentalist" from a "reasonable environmentalist", hey?

[sharkman]

as you're a member of the self-avowed AGW/CC denying MLW vocal minority, it would be insightful to realize exactly what determiners are used to qualify a "stubborn environmentalist" from a "reasonable environmentalist", hey?

Well, take your response, for instance. The first words that came to your mind were to marginalize my opinion. What does that make you? Stubborn.