Persecuted Christians In America!

[bush_cheney2004]

...When you look at the "big picture", defending religious freedom sounds like such an awesome cause. But when you look at which specific freedoms the religious leaders say are under attack, it always basically boils down to their right to be assholes.

Yep...and it's their constitutional right to do so. One may recall that Canada's Constitution Act enshrines such "asshole-ism" for Catholicss and Protestants in several provinces.

[kimmy]

Yep...and it's their constitutional right to do so.

Well, we'll see. If the court does indeed decide that Mrs Herx is acting as a "minister" in a religious institution, that could have impact beyond just Mrs Herx. If Catholic schools are "religious institutions", then that has implications for the politicians who are trying to funnel public money into Catholic schools through "vouchers" and "charters" and similar notions.

Similarly, if Catholic hospitals are going to be classified as religious institutions for purposes of the HHS mandate or receiving exemption from providing emergency reproductive services to women, for example, then maybe the government needs to reexamine whether Catholic hospitals should be allowed to receive funds from Medicare/Medicaid. If Catholic Charities is determined to be a religious institution for purposes of the HHS mandate and other purposes, then the US federal government will need to reexamine whether Catholic Charities is eligible to receive the billions-with-a-B of dollars of federal funding they're provided with.

One may recall that Canada's Constitution Act enshrines such "asshole-ism" for Catholicss and Protestants in several provinces.

One may. So? Rest assured, Dick, if Canada's Catholics want to wade into partisan politics the way their American counterparts have, I've got my finger on the trigger. But as it turns out Canada's politicians tend to be very wary of such overt partnership with the church because they know it's political poison in vote-rich urban areas.

-k

Edited April 29, 2012 by kimmy

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, we'll see. If the court does indeed decide that Mrs Herx is acting as a "minister" in a religious institution, that could have impact beyond just Mrs Herx. If Catholic schools are "religious institutions"...

Faith based schools are most certainly part of their sponsoring religious institutions. The court will not/cannot change this.

Similarly, if Catholic hospitals are going to be classified as religious institutions for purposes of the HHS mandate or receiving exemption from providing emergency reproductive services to women, for example, then maybe the government needs to reexamine whether Catholic hospitals should be allowed to receive funds from Medicare/Medicaid.

Meh...government reimbursement rates suck anyway.

If Catholic Charities is determined to be a religious institution for purposes of the HHS mandate and other purposes, then the US federal government will need to reexamine whether Catholic Charities is eligible to receive the billions-with-a-B of dollars of federal funding they're provided with.

They can examine all they wish..."B's" are not that big a deal down here.

One may. So? Rest assured, Dick, if Canada's Catholics want to wade into partisan politics the way their American counterparts have, I've got my finger on the trigger. But as it turns out Canada's politicians tend to be very wary of such overt partnership with the church because they know it's political poison in vote-rich urban areas.

It was good enough for funding preferences in Ontariario.

I'll make you a deal....don't worry about the Americans and their constitution and I will forget about "God" deeply embedded in yours.

Edited April 29, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[kimmy]

Faith based schools are most certainly part of their sponsoring religious institutions. The court will not/cannot change this.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the English teacher, the receptionist, the janitor, or the crossing-guards should all be considered "ministers".

They can examine all they wish..."B's" are not that big a deal down here.

They're a pretty big deal to Catholic Charities... about 2/3 of their $4.6 billion budget comes from the US federal government (by contrast, about 3% comes from Catholic churches...) so yes, it's a pretty big stick for the government to hold.

It was good enough for funding preferences in Ontariario.

I'll make you a deal....don't worry about the Americans and their constitution and I will forget about "God" deeply embedded in yours.

Why would you want to make a deal like that?

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

That doesn't necessarily mean that the English teacher, the receptionist, the janitor, or the crossing-guards should all be considered "ministers".

They don't have to be considered ministers....just employees of a religious organization that is exempt from Title VII for faith based discrimination except in the case of race, gender, or national origin.

They're a pretty big deal to Catholic Charities... about 2/3 of their $4.6 billion budget comes from the US federal government (by contrast, about 3% comes from Catholic churches...) so yes, it's a pretty big stick for the government to hold.

No it's not, as the FBIO exists as a political counterbalance to welfare reform. Many non-profits get such grants.

Why would you want to make a deal like that?

Because it's just not fair that I can always mockingly point to your God laden Constitution Act every time you chirp about religion in America, which has no specific constitutional allegiance to Protestants or Catholics.

[Guest American Woman]

Because it's just not fair that I can always mockingly point to your God laden Constitution Act every time you chirp about religion in America, which has no specific constitutional allegiance to Protestants or Catholics.

It is always good for a chuckle, though - along with Canadians going on and on about religion in America as they claim Americans are so focused on religion.

[cybercoma]

Persecuted Christians RIGHT HERE IN CANADA!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/05/03/ns-jesus-shirt-student.html

This kid in Nova Scotia is upset that he can't tell everyone of different faiths or those who don't believe in any religion that their lives are a complete waste because they don't have Jesus. It's really unfair that he's not allowed to be insulting to every non-Christian in his school.

[Smallc]

I actually think that he should be allowed to. The shirt isn't that insulting...even though it's full of shit.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm thinking that the right to free speech, the freedom of religion... that the fight for such rights are over when we're talking about teens' t-shirts.

These issues seem to be more about media providing provocative stories than issues that are important to our lives. What makes things better for Canadians is the boring stuff - banking, healthcare reform - and so on. Such issues are not well covered by media because they're not that interesting.

But they are important, so we need to find a way to discuss those things and leave mass media to covering these "fixed fight" political stories.

[jbg]

I think the idea that Iran is behaving badly and we are behaving properly also cuts to the heart of identity, namely a kind of relativistic triumphalism about the purity of our motives (compared to the dankness of all Official Enemy's motivations). I have these sorts of discussions all the time, up to and including an explicit support for terrorism itself, if it's we who are involved in it.

If you think Iran is "well behaved" and we are behaving improperly, try living their and expressing what I think your opinion is of Islamic brutality towards gays and women.

[Guest Manny]

If you think Iran is "well behaved" and we are behaving improperly, try living their and expressing what I think your opinion is of Islamic brutality towards gays and women.

Executions in Iran in 2010, 242.

Executions in United States, 46.

And may I add,

Executions in Canada, 0.

[Guest American Woman]

Executions in Iran in 2010, 242.

Executions in United States, 46.

And may I add,

Executions in Canada, 0.

And may I add - what were the executions for in Iran and what were they for in the United States?* - And how many were public - and how many were juveniles? How many were secret exicutions?

Your attempt to equate Iran with the U.S. is disgusting and ignorant beyond belief, and fyi, in 2011, at least 676 executions took place in Iran, but seriously, is that really what it all boils down to in your mind - "executions?"

But yeah, Canada is 0h-so-"well-behaved."

*Hint: first degree murder is the only crime carrying the death penalty in the U.S.

Edited May 6, 2012 by American Woman

[Guest Manny]

US also has the most prisoners in the world. I't s well known fact, and it's beenthat way for many many years.

The United States is not "well behaved" either. This was in response to what jbg said.

[Guest American Woman]

US also has the most prisoners in the world. I't s well known fact, and it's beenthat way for many many years.

The United States is not "well behaved" either. This was in response to what jbg said.

So we make our prisoners do time - for actual "crimes." Again, no comparison to what jbg was referring to. If you really don't get that, it explains a lot. (And again, Canada is no more "well behaved" than the U.S. is - or isn't.)

Edited to add: And really, do you believe every country is upfront about how many people are imprisoned?

Edited May 6, 2012 by American Woman

[Guest Manny]

Plus, the United States has killed many many more people worldwide than Iran, in its on-going wars. We're talking in the tens of millions, at the very least. Civilians, women and children. Their names will never even be known, that's how many.

And they stockpile and use many more weapons of mass destruction, invented chemical and biological weapons in an arms race to achieve supremacy, and used the atomic bomb on human beings not once, but twice.

The United States is not "well behaved". It is in fact among the worst of the worst countries in the world when measured by these things it does.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Manny

[Guest American Woman]

The United States is not "well behaved". It is in fact among the worst of the worst countries in the world when measured by these things it does.

You've shown where you are coming from - either you are so clueless or so biased it's pathetic. At any rate, too bad you have the U.S. as your neighbor. Seriously. You deserve to have a few other countries I can think of off the top of my head as your neighbor ......

[GostHacked]

You've shown where you are coming from - either you are so clueless or so biased it's pathetic. At any rate, too bad you have the U.S. as your neighbor. Seriously. You deserve to have a few other countries I can think of off the top of my head as your neighbor ......

Ann Coulter???? IS that REALLY you???

[Guest Manny]

You've shown where you are coming from - either you are so clueless or so biased it's pathetic. At any rate, too bad you have the U.S. as your neighbor. Seriously. You deserve to have a few other countries I can think of off the top of my head as your neighbor ......

No because I know those things I pointed out are true, the development of weapons, the mass killings, so I don't believe I am so clueless. As for biased, well everyone is biased in some way. I don't despise American people, the ones I meet are generally nice but they are in denial. I cannot excuse the actions of the American military, which follows orders from the US government, which is elected and empowered by the people of the United States. I would not make excuses for my own government and military's evil actions either, whenever appropriate.

So if jbg wants to trumpet about how good his country is compared to Iran, I don't think so. I disagree and I can raise many many points as to why.

Within the United States you enjoy comparatively much more freedom than the people of Iran. But that freedom also comes at the expense of poor people in other countries, those who have been politically, militarily and economically oppressed by the United States.

[Guest American Woman]

Ann Coulter???? IS that REALLY you???

Sorry to disappoint you Mahmoud, but it's not.

[Guest American Woman]

So if jbg wants to trumpet about how good his country is compared to Iran, I don't think so. I disagree and I can raise many many points as to why.

You know what you remind me of? A parent gives his kid a swat on the butt for running out in the street while another beats his kid black and blue just because he didn't measure up to his ideals. The former calls child protective services on the latter, and you come along and cry 'You're no better behaved! -you're a child abuser too!'

[jbg]

So if jbg wants to trumpet about how good his country is compared to Iran, I don't think so. I disagree and I can raise many many points as to why.

Within the United States you enjoy comparatively much more freedom than the people of Iran. But that freedom also comes at the expense of poor people in other countries, those who have been politically, militarily and economically oppressed by the United States.

How does our freedom depend on other peoples' lack of freedom?

[cybercoma]

I'm thinking that the right to free speech, the freedom of religion... that the fight for such rights are over when we're talking about teens' t-shirts.

These issues seem to be more about media providing provocative stories than issues that are important to our lives. What makes things better for Canadians is the boring stuff - banking, healthcare reform - and so on. Such issues are not well covered by media because they're not that interesting.

But they are important, so we need to find a way to discuss those things and leave mass media to covering these "fixed fight" political stories.

Give me a break. Catholic high schools in Ontario require students to wear uniforms. Does that infringe upon their rights of free speech? The point is that people who are going to school don't need to be constantly belittled by this overzealous Christian with his shirt that proclaims their lives are wasted if they don't believe in his God. I don't need to sit in a classroom with that kind of distraction every single day if I'm there to learn. His shirt is insulting and it wouldn't be tolerated if it was equally insulting by way of anything other than religion. If he wore a shir that said "your life is worthless if you're a ginger," there is no way that would be allowed. Kids going to that school should be free from the insulting rhetoric that he advertises daily through his bright yellow t-shirt. That's freedom.

[jefferiah]

I don't need to sit in a classroom with that kind of distraction every single day if I'm there to learn.

People's shirts distract you?

You must have a tough life.

Those poor schoolchildren must have trouble sleeping at night after the traumatic experience of being exposed to this horrible distracting t-shirt.

Edited May 6, 2012 by jefferiah

[cybercoma]

People's shirts distract you?

You must have a tough life.

Those poor schoolchildren must have trouble sleeping at night after the traumatic experience of being exposed to this horrible distracting t-shirt.

So it needs to rise to the level of traumatization before it's worth addressing? I would hate to see the school that you would run.

When you devalue human life the way his shirt does, it's not only offensive, but it's dangerous. That kind of thinking is what leads to some of the most horrific atrocities mankind has ever seen. Moreover, it's incredibly hypocritical for a Christian to find human life a waste. It's insanely un-Christian like actually. In fact, Jesus would probably be appalled by his shirt, since it was his life's purpose to hang out with all the sinners and whores that needed him the most.

Edited May 6, 2012 by cybercoma

[jefferiah]

So it needs to rise to the level of traumatization before it's worth addressing? I would hate to see the school that you would run.

You don't even believe yourself. But really, you are right, we probably shouldn't wait until the tshirt raises to the level of traumatization. I mean today the tshirt is just expressing a religious message. Tomorrow the shirt might be selling drugs.

Edited May 6, 2012 by jefferiah