The TTC thread

[Black Dog]

The federal government has absolutely no right to use people's federal income taxes from Lethbridge AB, Moncton, NB, or Saskatoon, SK to fund public transit in the Toronto Metropolitan. This isn't something that benefits Canadians. It benefits a single city and not even that, but only a single part of that city. This is nothing more than bribing Canadians with their own money for votes. Conservatives should be embarrassed to support this kind of spending by the federal government.

Great. Let me know what local infrastructure projects are underway in your are so I can withold my taxes from that.

[guyser]

Your example would be perfect if a Scarborough subway was even remotely close to a bridge built over a federally controlled waterway and extending between provinces.

Ands this post would be perfect if there wasnt already a way to move people and goods betw the two. The waterway is a moot point and doesnt factor into the equation in any meaningful way. I could say "hey , Islanders and NB'ers, pay for it yourself."

The two provinces angle is a moot, almost the same number of people in Scarborough ( a suburb of TO) as the two provinces.

The point is, funding for transit is woefully low in comparison to many other transits. It needs to be increased and this is one way to solve that.

[Black Dog]

Absolutely not. Public transit is not federal jurisdiction. Nor should it be.

OK why not? FWIW, Canada is the only G7 country that doesn't have a federal role in transit (IIRC).

So fund your own damn infrastructure properly. Raise taxes. Ford wants his cake and eat it too, all while preaching about stopping the gravy train. Meanwhile, he's perfectly ok with the rest of Canada being taxed for his pet projects, as though that were free money.

To paraphrase Stalin, how many votes does Regina have in Toronto's municipal election?

[cybercoma]

Great. Let me know what local infrastructure projects are underway in your are so I can withold my taxes from that.

That's the point, isn't it? You don't get to withhold your taxes. Representatives in Ottawa determine where money was spent. Who decided that money from the rest of Canada should go to Toronto? Parliamentarians not concerned with their constituents. That's who.

[cybercoma]

Ands this post would be perfect if there wasnt already a way to move people and goods betw the two. The waterway is a moot point and doesnt factor into the equation in any meaningful way. I could say "hey , Islanders and NB'ers, pay for it yourself."

The two provinces angle is a moot, almost the same number of people in Scarborough ( a suburb of TO) as the two provinces.

The point is, funding for transit is woefully low in comparison to many other transits. It needs to be increased and this is one way to solve that.

Oh of course, Guyser. The waterway and the fact that it's an interprovincial highway has nothing to do with anything because they put it into the jurisdiction of the federal government. The points that contradict your claim that it's exactly the same as public transit in Toronto are moot because it's convenient for you.

[Black Dog]

That's the point, isn't it? You don't get to withhold your taxes. Representatives in Ottawa determine where money was spent. Who decided that money from the rest of Canada should go to Toronto? Parliamentarians not concerned with their constituents. That's who.

You seem to think we should, that money collected locally should only be used locally.

If Toronto benefits from better transit through increased productivity or whatnot, that's likely to have a wider benefit than paving a dirt road or building gazebos in Tony Clement's riding.

Of course, this stupid subway doesn't do that, but that's another story.

[guyser]

That's the point, isn't it? You don't get to withhold your taxes.

Thankfully not !

This country couldnt afford it if TO did. All said, it would be nice to get some of that $4B shortfall back once in awhile

[guyser]

Oh of course, Guyser. The waterway and the fact that it's an interprovincial highway has nothing to do with anything because they put it into the jurisdiction of the federal government. The points that contradict your claim that it's exactly the same as public transit in Toronto are moot because it's convenient for you.

Not quite right

There existed a Fed funded mode of transport for PEI. Why spend $1.4B to make something different? Thats the issue I mock, same as you mocking the need for improved transit here in TO>

[jacee]

So fund your own damn infrastructure properly. Raise taxes. Ford wants his cake and eat it too, all while preaching about stopping the gravy train. Meanwhile, he's perfectly ok with the rest of Canada being taxed for his pet projects, as though that were free money.

I don't think the subway is a better option than LRT, but all of Council voted for it, not just Ford.

Either way, subway or LRT, some federal infrastructure money would be used to build it.

Guyser is right: Getting people on mass transit gets then to work, gets cars off the roads and contributes to the economy. The trucks stuck in gridlock on the 401 may be headed for Montreal - nothing to do with Scarborough, but mass transit for Scarborough will help. Get it?

I'm no Ford fan. He wears his ignorance like it's a damn chain of office!

But I don't think this is too far out of line.

[cybercoma]

I'm not arguing against mass transit. I'm not saying there aren't benefits to mass transit. What I am saying is that the federal government should not be paying for municipal transit.

[scribblet]

Having lived and worked in Toronto for eons before retiring and leaving for a smaller town, I would say subways are the way to go.

I'm not sure the Feds. should be handing out money for this either. Toronto has the lowest property tax rate in southern Ontario (at least), they should raise the property taxes to help pay for this. However, Toronto still contributes mega bucks to both Ontario and the Feds.

I don't want to say that people outside of Toronto shouldn't have to pay for Toronto's needs because in reality, much of what Toronto contributes goes towards hospitals and infrastructure in smaller towns which don't have a decent tax base to support themselves. In other words, Ontario's tax dollars go towards the whole of Ontario. I think about some people who continually whine and moan that there particular area is ignored by the politicians but when you look at their hospitals and so on, it's Toronto that helps to support them. I suppose it's one big pot provincially, and Federally it's similar because we have the 'equalization payments' to even things out.

[Michael Hardner]

Absolutely not. Public transit is not federal jurisdiction. Nor should it be. A net outflow of money from Toronto is meaningless when talking about national tax revenue. Military bases, for example, cost a crapload of money to run and operate. The amount of federal money collected from Oromocto, ...

So the notion that geographic locations should get all of their money back from the fed or that the fed should support local projects that serve no national purpose is wrong, imo.

Then why did you bring up the notion that federal money from Oromocto, Gagetown, Winnipeg shouldn't go to Toronto ? The federal government does fund infrastructure everywhere too.

In any case, I'm just picking at the idea that there's any system or logic behind any of this. There's no "should" except what plays politically. Is it right ? Not in my eyes - I'd like to see some more utilitarian logic behind who gets what. Overall, though, it's not the worst situation and public input and disclosure would make it better.

[jacee]

I'm not arguing against mass transit. I'm not saying there aren't benefits to mass transit. What I am saying is that the federal government should not be paying for municipal transit.

Well they do ... because there are benefits for the national economy.

[Boges]

Well they do ... because there are benefits for the national economy.

I think an argument could be made that a Subway into a Suburb that doesn't REALLY need it won't really benefit the national economy. A smarter move would be to kick in Federal funds to get a Yonge Street Relief Line going.

I'll totally go to with BD here. This is political pandering at it's worst. And Ford will likely reap the benefits. He's got all 3 levels of government playing his SUBWAY SUBWAY SUBWAY game. Apparently a Star columnist compared Scarborough to Quebec today.

[GostHacked]

Then why did you bring up the notion that federal money from Oromocto, Gagetown, Winnipeg shouldn't go to Toronto ? The federal government does fund infrastructure everywhere too.

In any case, I'm just picking at the idea that there's any system or logic behind any of this. There's no "should" except what plays politically. Is it right ? Not in my eyes - I'd like to see some more utilitarian logic behind who gets what. Overall, though, it's not the worst situation and public input and disclosure would make it better.

Military bases are federal, everyone pays for them.

The subway is municipal and localized and benefits a small portion of the overall population of the country. Those who use it should pay for it.

If Toronto cannot afford it, maybe the city needs to revisit its finances and budget.

[jacee]

I think an argument could be made that a Subway into a Suburb that doesn't REALLY need it won't really benefit the national economy.

Not true.

All elements contributing to the national economy operate within a municipality, and

11% of Canada's GDP comes from Toronto businesses.

http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_facts/business_econdev.htm

Toronto gridlock causes losses to the economy.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/business/story/1.1394574

Getting cars off the Gardiner-DVP-401 does benefit the national economy.

I'll totally go to with BD here. This is political pandering at it's worst. And Ford will likely reap the benefits. He's got all 3 levels of government playing his SUBWAY SUBWAY SUBWAY game.

Ford aside, the feds would be contributing regardless, for the reasons cited above.

[Boges]

The CD Howe study is a load of crap. I commented on it in the Ontario Transit thread.

They contend that gridlock makes people less likely to choose to commute across communities in the GTA. No Shit! But people doing that contributes to gridlock. Chicken or Egg?

Those are the choices people who advocate for transit want people to make. They would say it helps the economy if someone drives from say Oakville to Oshawa to do some sort of business but because of traffic, they won't. And that's costing people money.

The point is, they shouldn't be. Try to commute less not more. That's the bill of goods the government keeps trying to sell us. The CD Howe study flies in the face of that sentiment.

Also adding to the Sales Tax, Gas Tax and Train station parking is going to take money from people's pockets just the same so you're not exactly helping the economy by doing that kind of stuff.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Boges

[jacee]

The CD Howe study is a load of crap. I commented on it in the Ontario Transit thread.

They contend that gridlock makes people less likely to choose to commute across communities in the GTA. No Shit! But people doing that contributes to gridlock. Chicken or Egg?

Those are the choices people who advocate for transit want people to make. They would say it helps the economy if someone drives from say Oakville to Oshawa to do some sort of business but because of traffic, they won't. And that's costing people money.

The point is, they shouldn't be. Try to commute less not more. That's the bill of goods the government keeps trying to sell us. The CD Howe study flies in the face of that sentiment.

Also adding to the Sales Tax, Gas Tax and Train station parking is going to take money from people's pockets just the same so you're not exactly helping the economy by doing that kind of stuff.

Ahhh ... people should just commute less.

OK

So ... how do cars get built without workers commuting?

How does the ACC get cleaned without workers commuting?

How do libraries, cafes, hotels etc get staffed without workers commuting?

Not a really viable solution.

I dislike Ford intensly.

However, this isn't the issue that's going to bring him down.

[Boges]

Ahhh ... people should just commute less.

OK

So ... how do cars get built without workers commuting?

How does the ACC get cleaned without workers commuting?

How do libraries, cafes, hotels etc get staffed without workers commuting?

Not a really viable solution.

I dislike Ford intensly.

However, this isn't the issue that's going to bring him down.

People should live next door to where they work. This is what the Left constantly preaches.

IMHO Gridlock is a good thing if you think about it. People are going to work every morning. Notice gridlock is far less a problem during the summer and March Break?

If someone chooses to live in Buttbleep No Where and work Downtown, they SHOULD expect to encounter traffic if they're traveling at rush hour.

There are already transit solutions to get a cross the region in the GTA, they usually take more time and cost more than just taking a car, people make the choice to drive or make the choice to live close to where they work.

Most of the Big Move proposals deal with inter region transit assisting people that already use transit. Do you think this Scarborough Subway is going to make someone that currently drives suddenly take transit? I doubt it.

[cybercoma]

Then why did you bring up the notion that federal money from Oromocto, Gagetown, Winnipeg shouldn't go to Toronto ? The federal government does fund infrastructure everywhere too.

The reason I bring it up is that a military base is in the interest of the nation. Having a trained military ready to respond is fundamental to our nation's sovereignty and therefore everyone's interest. A subway in Toronto is not. So what I'm saying is that the community around Gagetown cannot support the base's operations with its own tax dollars alone, considering it costs millions to run the thing. That means money from the national pool is going to greatly exceed what that community puts into it, so people from all over the country are going to be paying for that military base. However, paying for a military base is necessary for everyone. When federal money is given out specifically to help with public transit, that's not in the entire nation's best interest, despite Torontonians thinking that Canada starts at Burlington and stops at Oshawa. Edited September 24, 2013 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

I think an argument could be made that a Subway into a Suburb that doesn't REALLY need it won't really benefit the national economy. A smarter move would be to kick in Federal funds to get a Yonge Street Relief Line going.

I'll totally go to with BD here. This is political pandering at it's worst. And Ford will likely reap the benefits. He's got all 3 levels of government playing his SUBWAY SUBWAY SUBWAY game. Apparently a Star columnist compared Scarborough to Quebec today.

And this is all in the face of LRT being a cheaper, more reliable, and more easy to maintain system anyway. It's ridiculous and wasteful. Even if the federal government wasn't footing the bill, it's a stupid decision. The CPC writing Ford a cheque...yikes. What happened to Stephen Harper that was in the Taxpayers Federation? And the sad thing is that Nenshi, right in Harper's own riding, has also been calling for increased infrastructure funding. But there's no photo op for that or seemingly any money there. Is there? Edited September 24, 2013 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Not true.

All elements contributing to the national economy operate within a municipality, and

11% of Canada's GDP comes from Toronto businesses.

http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_facts/business_econdev.htm

So now all of a sudden you support a government that's sold off to the highest bidder, when you've criticized this many times before.

[Black Dog]

When federal money is given out specifically to help with public transit, that's not in the entire nation's best interest, despite Torontonians thinking that Canada starts at Burlington and stops at Oshawa.

Torontonians pay federal taxes too.

[jacee]

So now all of a sudden you support a government that's sold off to the highest bidder, when you've criticized this many times before.

Hunh?

I just don't see this as a 'Ford' issue: Toronto city council voted for a subway.

Regardless of Ford or not-Ford ...

Regardless of subway or LRT ...

There would be some federal funding for mass transit to Scarborough ... regardless.

[cybercoma]

Torontonians pay federal taxes too.

Yes they do. To pay for things under federal jurisdiction. Torontonians also pay provincial income tax and property taxes which go towards their own municipal transit.