So what would you do if you saw your coach molesting a child?

[bush_cheney2004]

You are in fact 100% wrong. The above is not established policy. You fabricated that to justify your iresponses trying to rationalize a cover up and I have to call you out on it and your other comments.

Bull puckey...I supported covering up nothing. Get a grip.

I may mostly agree with you on foreign policy and like you but hey Bush you are way out of wack on this one and I say that respectfully but I am gonna really challenge you on this one.

No need to kiss my ass....just state your point on this issue alone.

If someone has a reason to believe a crime is committed they have a legal obligation to report it to the police-you know that.

No they don't...Pennsylvania law has specific requirements in that respect. Go read the statute..like I did.

The janitors, the coach who witnessed the crime, Joe Paterno and Penn State all had a legal responsibility to report the crime. By failing to do so they became criminal accessories after the fact and they exposes the university to a huge law suit for negligence for failing to report the crime to the police. Its indefensible in a civil law suit for negligence. I know that because I have spent 15 years providing risk consulting to companies on sex crimes and policies. I am not fabricating what I say I do it for a living Bush.

Then you should know better than to confuse civil and criminal law.

Criminal law does not give us the luxury to decide not to report a crime. We do not have that luxury. It is up to the police not us to decide whether there is sufficient evidence to investigate a crime. The criminal law clearly states if we have reason to believe a crime is committed we MUST report it and over the years criminal law in both the U.S. and Canada has set a high standard of when to report sex crimes or crimes of violence.

This is utter nonsense if only on a practical level. Citizens are not required to act on behalf of government law enforcement except as provided for in statute. What you are saying leads to the logical absurdity of reporting littering.

Penn State as is the case with all universities to obtain insurance for liability against third parties ....

Yep, and Penn States's board of trustees just circled the wagons to minimize the hit they are about to take.

I do not doubt cover ups are done to avoid being sued but its not approved or established policy-its what executives do when they are gutless. Its what eventually causes the largest of empires to topple in scandal and it is contrary to established policies all companies now follow on sex harassment complaints.

This is where I'm going to rip you in return. Nothing could be more smug and sanctimonious as your stance in the face of decades of such behaviour by many school administrations and other organizations. Sexual assaults on campus were out of control and still place a large burden on the victim when reported. All those "policies" that now lead to your employment come in the wake of getting their asses sued off, not any moral high ground. Student athletes in high profile, revenue generating sports still get treated with kid gloves unless the press gets involved. Your self serving outrage is noted.

15 years now I have been serving as a consultant to industry on how to deal with sex crimes-not one executive has evidenced a learning impairment not to understand covering up a crime is tatamount to commiting the crime. Not one.

Great...more billable hours for you.

The executives and people who involve themselves in cover ups are criminal accessories and they fail morally and they know they have. They aren't stupid. They know the cover ups are wrong and eventually one day they will get caught and the longer it takes to come out the more damage will be done.

You can check your moral outrage at the door, because you know damn right well what happens when million dollar judgements are at stake. Stick to the law as written.

Bish you know why the other poster is outraged and used the reference to his family being assaulted. It takes a community to bring up children. You know that. Do you really want to live in a community you where your child is raped by an adult and other adults cover it up? Really?

Cry me a river...these same putzes want me to feel sorry for other violent offenders and release them from prison as rehabilitated members of society. Ditto murderers. These hypocrites go bonkers over pedophiles, wanting to bash their heads in. Sexual assault comes in many flavors....where is the outrage for all the others that happen on a routine basis? Some of these people are actually of the mindset that it would be better for their child to be murdered than "molested".....go figure that one out.

When a child or anyone is raped, yes there is a victim but its also a crime committed against all of us in society. We all are the parents of the children and vulnerable in our community. Surely as civilized people you understand that.

Your high holiness does not jibe with observed community behaviour, from cover-ups to release programs for sex offenders in neighbourhood halfway houses.

Those janitors, Jo Pa, McReary, the uppity mucks a U Penn they all failed morally and they all became criminal accessories and no rationalization can change that.

That remains to be seen...your morals are yours alone. The law is quite different, especially when money is involved.

All of us, have an obligation to report a crime to police. Many of us donm't out of fear or not being inconvenienced but it doesn't absolve our responsibility both criminally and morally.

Wrong...people are not so legally burdened except when legislated. I already posted that I would have reported the crime to police, so I don't know what your problem is. But I do not insist that others do as I would out of some sense of moral superiority.

In Joe Pa's case its even worse because as a senior official it is indefensible what he did. His level in the organization means by his not going to police, he automatically exposed the university to being unable to defend itself in a criminal accessory after the fact charge or civil liability law suit. He has no defence for not going to the police. The I was only following orders defence has been rejected in criminal and civil courts as loudly and clearly as it gets.

Paterno reported the hearsay evidence to his superiors, and was exonerated of any wrongdoing by a grand jury. Forgive me if I take their decision over your moral outrage.

Jo Pa was told by a coach he saw the other coach rape a boy. He had an obligation to not just tell his superiors but go to the police with them and he and his management had the legal obligation if they wanted to avoid exposing the university to civil liability for negligence let alone criminal liability for being accessories after the fact, to suspend his coach with pay pending an internal investigation. That was in fact the established policy.

Apparently not...it was not followed.

The established policy was and is to suspend the coach with pay (recognizing presumption of innocence) pending an internal investigation PLUS reporting it to police.

The coach perp was no longer an employee. Are you sure you are reading the same story as the rest of us?

Sorry Bush but you are dead wrong in terms of both criminal and civil law standards of conduct as well as basic moral ones of decency all of us must have.

We'll see....your santimonious crying won't mean jack in court.

Holy cow are we that screwed up we don't know when we see a boy being raped we don't step in and pull the sob off him and subdue the sob and hold him until the police come?

Oh...tough guy...huh? Should my 105 lb. wife take your gung ho advice too?

Are you telling me we see a man molesting a boy and its good enough to do nothing at the time? What you think we should do nothing as a boy is raped?

I already posted pages ago that I would do to notify campus authorities and arrest the event.

If you Bush have no compulsion to say I physically would step in and grab that sob rapist, I think there is with due respect something seriously wrong with you and the other poster is dead on. Would you want me to stand there and do nothing if I saw your child being raped? Really?

Yes...I want my kid back alive, not dead after your half ass rescue attempt to stop what has already happened. If you don't notify the authorities first, the house burns all the way to the ground.

Come on man.

Then why aren't you seething at McQueary's inaction? The university and police are protecting his employment status because he is a witness.

[bush_cheney2004]

The "Just Yell Fire" campaign is real at American universities and other organizations. I'm surprised some don't know about it...oh wait...nobody every gets sexualy assaulted in Canada!

http://www.justyellfire.com/press.php

Here is a public safety communique for Spelman College; note where it says to report incidents of sexual assault to the college, with no emphasis on contacting police first:

http://www.spelman.edu/students/current/pdf/O_SAsafety.pdf

Campus police actually insulate some colleges from direct public law inforcement, and we surely know why.

[wyly]

I don't know how the witness to the assault failed to do anything to stop it as it was happening, I absolutely know I would've, one of us would have not walked out of that shower room... how could anyone with any morality walk away from a child rape?...

I'm in a similar dilemma of knowledge of possible pedophilia and don't know what to do with it...my knowledge is 3rd hand so I'm not privy to direct knowledge of events, it's all hearsay... without direct 1st hand knowledge my saying something to authorities could destroy someone's career if the stories are unfounded...

[cybercoma]

A guy was assaulted at the game Saturday for silently standing outside the stadium with a sign that said "put abused kids first."

http://t.co/aNUtDr41

[Guest American Woman]

A guy was assaulted at the game Saturday for silently standing outside the stadium with a sign that said "put abused kids first."

http://t.co/aNUtDr41

He also had a sign that said "Don’t be fooled, they all knew. Tom Bradley, everyone must go."

You left that out. I wonder why? That sounds rather slanderous to me as he has no idea who "knew" what - and that paints a different picture from the one you presented. I would say the "put abused kids first" sign had nothing to do with the reaction he got. There was all kinds of support for abused kids on display at that football game. Why do you think this guy was singled out?

[msj]

He also had a sign that said "Don’t be fooled, they all knew. Tom Bradley, everyone must go."

You left that out. I wonder why? That sounds rather slanderous to me as he has no idea who "knew" what - and that paints a different picture from the one you presented. I would say the "put abused kids first" sign had nothing to do with the reaction he got. There was all kinds of support for abused kids on display at that football game. Why do you think this guy was singled out?

I guess he left it out because it's obvious to everyone (apparently) that one deserves to have beer poured on one's head, his midsection slapped and expletives rained down on him, for having the audacity to show up with those two signs.

[blueblood]

Anderson Cooper is having the Sandusky lawyer on his show. This ought to be good...

[jbg]

Anderson Cooper is having the Sandusky lawyer on his show. This ought to be good...

I thought Sandusky would be a natural on Herman Cain's campaign; harassers in love.

[eyeball]

I'm in a similar dilemma of knowledge of possible pedophilia and don't know what to do with it...my knowledge is 3rd hand so I'm not privy to direct knowledge of events, it's all hearsay... without direct 1st hand knowledge my saying something to authorities could destroy someone's career if the stories are unfounded...

That sucks. This resonates with how society could also be badly harmed if the belief that a wave of unreported crime has occurred is un-founded.

Hearsay is the flip side of the same coin that not reporting a crime is stamped on.

[bush_cheney2004]

All you folks who think telling police brings instant action might want to think again. Like many organizations confronted with such allegations, Penn State has clammed up big time. McQueary says he did stop the assault and talked to police...

Mcall

Edited November 16, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[cybercoma]

Who said telling the police brings "instant action"?

[eyeball]

All you folks who think telling police brings instant action might want to think again. Like many organizations confronted with such allegations, Penn State has clammed up big time. McQueary says he did stop the assault and talked to police...

What instant action are you talking about?

The graduate assistant left "immediately," was "distraught" and called his father, according to the presentment.

I think for most folks, notwithstanding quivering cowards or unrepentant apologists for pedophiles in authority, instant action would mean doing something like grabbing Sandusky off the kid and driving his head through a wall or at the very least, screaming something like "Help...Sandusky is raping a ten year old boy, call the police, call 911, call security!...HELP HELP HELP! I need HELP right away! Sandusky is RAPING a little kid!"

Would it help if I also bolded the HELPs or do you get the point?

[bush_cheney2004]

What instant action are you talking about?

Police arrest and conviction of a pedophile. Sandusky was actually investigated years before, but the DA did not bring charges because proving child sexual abuse must meet a very high standard in Pennsylvania.

I think for most folks, notwithstanding quivering cowards or unrepentant apologists for pedophiles in authority, instant action would mean doing something like grabbing Sandusky off the kid and driving his head through a wall....

McQueary now reports that he stop the assault without such drama.

Would it help if I also bolded the HELPs or do you get the point?

The point have never been unclear to me....histrionics for a violent intervention satisfies another purpose altogether. Whatever happened to "hug-a-thug" and "rehabilitation" so strongly advocated by our kinder and gentler liberal folk?

Edited November 16, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

Police arrest and conviction of a pedophile. Sandusky was actually investigated years before, but the DA did not bring charges because proving child sexual abuse must meet a very high standard in Pennsylvania.

This is what has always made me wonder - since there was an investigation, and no charges were made, how much 'evidence' was there? Surely charges need to be made on more than just someone's "word." If all someone had to do is go to the police and say "I saw so-and-so doing such and such," and the police would issue an arrest warrant and charges would be laid, what kind of world would this be?

McQueary now reports that he stop the assault without such drama.

This is why I developed a "wait and see" attitude rather than trying and hanging them all by what we've seen in the media thus far. I would imagine they had to watch what they say, especially since things said to/in the media are all too often out of context or not true.

As I said, the Duke Lacrosse players were tried and hanged in the media/by the public - and they were found innocent. Their lives will never be the same.

The point have never been unclear to me....histrionics for a violent intervention satisfies another purpose altogether. Whatever happened to "hug-a-thug" and "rehabilitation" so strongly advocated by our kinder and gentler liberal folk?

What I find ironic is that some in this thread get all bent out of shape over child protective services getting involved in reports of abuse.

[Edited to correct grammatical errors.]

Edited November 16, 2011 by American Woman

[eyeball]

McQueary now reports that he stop the assault without such drama.

What do you mean now? You have another source that refutes the 1st source you provided where it said McQueary went home and phoned his dad?

The point have never been unclear to me...histrionics for a violent intervention satisfies another purpose altogether.

"Help...Sandusky is raping a ten year old boy, call the police, call 911, call security!...HELP HELP HELP! I need HELP right away! Sandusky is RAPING a little kid!"

There's nothing violent about that type of intervention.

Whatever happened to "hug-a-thug" and "rehabilitation" so strongly advocated by our kinder and gentler liberal folk?

If experts in the field determine that Sandusky was abused as a kid to the extent he's mentally ill or has a brain tumor and can't tell right from wrong then I'll be an advocate for his rehabilitation. In the meantime what ever happened to the cracking down and getting tough on criminals you hard boiled law and moral order types so strongly advocate?

It's really odd how so many of you go to such lengths to defend pedophilia when it involves organizations or institutions, what's that all about anyway?

Edited November 16, 2011 by eyeball

[eyeball]

This is what has always made me wonder -

So what would do if you saw a grown man ass raping a little kid, call your dad or maybe Bush Cheney2004 for advice before deciding?

[Guest American Woman]

So what would do if you saw a grown man ass raping a little kid, call your dad or maybe Bush Cheney2004 for advice before deciding?

I'm not going down this road with you. :angry:

[eyeball]

I'm not going down this road with you. :angry:

No, I'm just not following you down down your off-ramp to nowhere. No wonder you're pissed.

[Guest American Woman]

No, I'm just not following you down down your off-ramp to nowhere. No wonder you're pissed.

Ummmm. No. That's not what you're doing at all. :angry: I already said I thought making a lot of noise, pulling the fire alarm, and then calling the police is the way to go. You'll have to forgive me for not entering the shower and attempting to bash the coach's head in.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is what has always made me wonder - since there was an investigation, and no charges were made, how much 'evidence' was there? Surely charges need to be made on more than just someone's "word." If all someone had to do is....

Right...if one actually digs into the statute and elements of the offense, what the DA is facing is a huge battle over intent, proving "gratification", and the actual act itself.

Sandusky slithered away each time.

This is why I developed a "wait and see" attitude rather than trying and hanging them all by what we've seen in the media thus far. I would imagine they had to watch what they say, especially since things said to/in the media are all too often out of context or not true.

I agree, and in the context of sexual abuse on campuses in general, am not at all surprised as to how this went down. The "bash his head into the shower wall" heroes are just reflexively reacting without much thought, except for maybe how hockey fights are sanctioned in the NHL!

As I said, the Duke Lacrosse players were tried and hanged in the media/by the public - and they were found innocent. Their lives will never be the same.

Bang on...were watched how that fiasco unfolded. I am sure that Sandusky has committed a crime of sexual abuse, but it's not like Paterno was the first chance to "nail him".

What I find ironic is that some in this thread get all bent out of shape over child protective services getting involved in reports of abuse.

They just go bonkers....interesting to see even the most thug hugging liberals turn into biblical tools of wrath and instant (violent) punishment.

Edited November 16, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

What do you mean now? You have another source that refutes the 1st source you provided where it said McQueary went home and phoned his dad?

Now = reported email to friend yesterday stating same.

If experts in the field determine that Sandusky was abused as a kid to the extent he's mentally ill or has a brain tumor and can't tell right from wrong then I'll be an advocate for his rehabilitation.

Too late..you would have already caved in his cranium. NEWSFLASH: Liberal Kills Pedophile!

In the meantime what ever happened to the cracking down and getting tough on criminals you hard boiled law and moral order types so strongly advocate?

Dude...you gotta convict them first, even in Pennsylvania.

It's really odd how so many of you go to such lengths to defend pedophilia when it involves organizations or institutions, what's that all about anyway?

Nobody is defending pedophilia, but we are laughing at you Rambo Rescuers. The very shame, guilt, and outrage is what helps to drive pedophile crimes and other sexual assaults underground without legal resolution.

Edited November 16, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Ummmm. No. That's not what you're doing at all. :angry: I already said I thought making a lot of noise, pulling the fire alarm, and then calling the police is the way to go. You'll have to forgive me for not entering the shower and attempting to bash the coach's head in.

Right...just as was originally stated and consistent with "Yell Fire" safety campaigns on many school campuses.

[guyser]

Right...if one actually digs into the statute and elements of the offense, what the DA is facing is a huge battle over intent, proving "gratification", and the actual act itself.

By any chance do you have that link. I tried yesterday but kept coming up on something different.

I would like to see how this could be so hard for a DA in face of the evidence that would have been available .

[Guest American Woman]

By any chance do you have that link. I tried yesterday but kept coming up on something different.

I would like to see how this could be so hard for a DA in face of the evidence that would have been available .

What evidence was available? - That's what I'm wondering. Do you have a link providing the evidence that was available?

[eyeball]

Now = reported email to friend yesterday stating same.

Bully for now, what about then, when McQueary found Sandusky with his pecker in a little kid's butt? You're still trying to maintain that McQueary's action of leaving and calling his dad somehow immediately stopped the rape. That's bizarre.

Too late..you would have already caved in his cranium. NEWSFLASH: Liberal Kills Pedophile!

Speaking of now it's a little late to hold me to something I acknowledged would have been wrong, almost immediately after I said it in fact. My bad, get over it.

Dude...you gotta convict them first, even in Pennsylvania.

You can't even catch them, especially in Pennsylvania.

Nobody is defending pedophilia, but we are laughing at you Rambo Rescuers.

Why, if we're all interested in the same thing?

The very shame, guilt, and outrage is what helps to drive pedophile crimes and other sexual assaults underground without legal resolution.

Except it's the attempt at legal resolution or lack thereof to these allegations that has been buried even more deeply. What drives these crimes underground is separate from what it takes to keep them there which all too often organizations take great effort to do so.

So perhaps a better question would be, what would you do if you saw your favorite organization covering up a pedophile's crimes?

Edited November 16, 2011 by eyeball