So what would you do if you saw your coach molesting a child?

[bush_cheney2004]

Lets be honest here ...if you were in a leadership position and a person came up to you and said he / she saw someone getting raped you are going to contact the police right away...these allegations are serious enough that warrants that kind of action..if the person is lying then it is not your fault..you will not be in trouble by the police

No, my first question would be if the police had already been notified. The cops are going to want the actual witness, not my second hand account. Now that I think about, in the military we didn't call the police either until the chain of command was informed.

[olp1fan]

No, my first question would be if the police had already been notified. The cops are going to want the actual witness, not my second hand account. Now that I think about, in the military we didn't call the police either until the chain of command was informed.

The witness would be there answering the Polices questions...

yes I realize if you f*** with the chain of command you're in deep shit but this kind of thing is worth the shit because its bigger than the school

Edited November 13, 2011 by olp1fan

[eyeball]

That doesn't even make any sense...and he never said that anyway.

You're right, I guess what he really said was Either you are with us, or you are with the pedophiles.

[olp1fan]

it seems like penn state is no different than the catholic church and scouts canada

[bush_cheney2004]

The witness would be there answering the Polices questions...

Then Joe's involvement wasn't required at all. Why didn't McQueary report to police as you insist he should have? Joe Pa didn't witness anything.

yes I realize if you f*** with the chain of command you're in deep shit but this kind of thing is worth the shit because its bigger than the school

Maybe....maybe not. Sexual assaults against women on college campuses struggled for years to get proper attention outside of the administration's efforts to keep things quiet and avoid legal liability. It's still a big problem.

[bush_cheney2004]

You're right, I guess what he really said was Either you are with us, or you are with the pedophiles.

Better, but I still don't understand any relevance to the OP. Bush is gone...give it a rest.

[olp1fan]

Then Joe's involvement wasn't required at all. Why didn't McQueary report to police as you insist he should have? Joe Pa didn't witness anything.

He shouldn't have bothered to tell Joe...should have told the police himself..but he did not, he chose to involve Joe and thus involved Joe entirely into the situation because when someone tells you something such as that...you're all in whether it is true or false

it's not something that can be taken lightly

Maybe....maybe not. Sexual assaults against women on college campuses struggled for years to get proper attention outside of the administration's efforts to keep things quiet and avoid legal liability. It's still a big problem.

Yeah, it's a pretty big problem anywhere, college, in the work place... sad to think about

Edited November 13, 2011 by olp1fan

[eyeball]

Then Joe's involvement wasn't required at all. Why didn't McQueary report to police as you insist he should have? Joe Pa didn't witness anything.

He witnessed the act of not reporting a crime, twice. First McQueary's then the organizations.

If your with them...

[bush_cheney2004]

He shouldn't have bothered to tell Joe...should have told the police himself..but he did not, he chose to involve Joe and thus involved Joe entirely into the situation because when someone tells you something such as that...you're all in whether it is true or false

it's not something that can be taken lightly

So here we have old ass football icon Joe Paterno minding his own business and because of information he was told he now has a life changing burden? Nope...I ain't buying that for a minute. He told his boss and watched the university do what nearly all of them do...circle the wagons and guard their pot of gold.

[bush_cheney2004]

He witnessed the act of not reporting a crime, twice. First McQueary's then the organizations.

If your with them...

So now Joe should have reported McQueary to the cops too? How about the abused kid...did he violate the law too by not reporting his assault?

[olp1fan]

So here we have old ass football icon Joe Paterno minding his own business and because of information he was told he now has a life changing burden?

Happens more than you know...people knowing things they shouldn't...turns their lives upside down or kills them

In Smallville Pete Ross (Clarks best friend) learned of Clarks super powers and his life changed because of the burden

he had to leave Smallville and cut all contact off with Clark because it was too dangerous

[bush_cheney2004]

Happens more than you know...people knowing things they shouldn't...turns their lives upside down or kills them

La la la....can't hear you.

In Smallville Pete Ross (Clarks best friend) learned of Clarks super powers and his life changed because of the burden

he had to leave Smallville and cut all contact off with Clark because it was too dangerous

WTF? Please step away from the American TV shows.

[olp1fan]

La la la....can't hear you.

WTF? Please step away from the American TV shows.

American tv show yet filmed in British Columbia with quite a few Canadian actors / actresses mhm

plus Superman is half Canadian

Metropolis originally was Toronto and the Daily Planet was inspired by a newspaper in Toronto

sorry but that makes it more Canadian than American bucko

Edited November 13, 2011 by olp1fan

[Guest American Woman]

I don't think so...the university grounds and program were still complicit and liable. There are no heroes in this story.

I'm not so sure, either. It's not as cut and dried as I may have first believed. Should Paterno have gone to the police based on what a third party claimed to have seen?

For example. What is someone told me that their neighbor was abusing their child - should I call social services? Should a third party claim be enough to obligate one to alert authorities, or would it be dismissed? What is someone is a gossip, or has an axe to grind, and goes around telling people this or that - is everyone who they tell obligated to take it to the authorities?

I'm beginning to question if he should have done anything beyond alerting the university authorities. He could have, but should he have? - they are two different things.

[bush_cheney2004]

sorry but that makes it more Canadian than American bucko

Yes...if a Canadian farts on set that qualifies for CanCon rules.

But what does that have to do with this thread?

[olp1fan]

I'm not so sure, either. It's not as cut and dried as I may have first believed. Should Paterno have gone to the police based on what a third party claimed to have seen?

For example. What is someone told me that their neighbor was abusing their child - should I call social services? Should a third party claim be enough to obligate one to alert authorities, or would it be dismissed? What is someone is a gossip, or has an axe to grind, and goes around telling people this or that - is everyone who they tell obligated to take it to the authorities?

That's up to the police to decide once you report it, you did your job as a citizen reporting to them what you were told

[bush_cheney2004]

...I'm beginning to question if he should have done anything beyond alerting the university authorities. He could have, but should he have? - they are two different things.

Yes...that is the nub of the matter, and all these "hind sight heroes" swear they would have marched down to police headquarters and made a prompt report. It's not that clear cut as you said. Joe says he should have done more, but that is in retrospect as well.

Looking back and connecting the dots, most universities and colleges are very reluctant to do the right thing in such cases. Ditto school districts.

Edited November 13, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

Looking back and connecting the dots, most universities and colleges are very reluctant to do the right thing in such cases. Ditto school districts.

Perhaps that's because "the right thing" is too often only apparent in hindsight. A lot of harm has been done because of over-zealous people making reports of child abuse without much 'proof' too; harm to innocent people and children.

So should we go around reporting people based on third party information? Unfortunately, there's no answer that would be "right" for every situation. Either way, no matter which way one chooses to go, there are going to be innocent people who suffer harm in some of the instances.

[bush_cheney2004]

Perhaps that's because "the right thing" is too often only apparent in hindsight. A lot of harm has been done because of over-zealous people making reports of child abuse without much 'proof' too; harm to innocent people and children.

Agreed...it is a lot easier to report a murder!

So should we go around reporting people based on third party information? Unfortunately, there's no answer that would be "right" for every situation. Either way, no matter which way one chooses to go, there are going to be innocent people who suffer harm in some of the instances.

The state laws that have been recently passed put the burden on health care professionals, schools, and other people who would routinely interact with children. There is no such legal burden for the public at large AFAIK. Informally, people make sure that their kids are not left alone or put in such a position. Physical education class showering, so common and mandatory in my school age day, is now all but forgotten because of the potential for abuse. Men are particularly scrutinized for their behaviors and relationships with children.

Edited November 13, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[jbg]

the penn state students still don't get it...they are still supporting a man who knew of this assistant coach (his buddy) sexually molesting minors, what the f***?

they want to give Paterno the f'n game ball if they win today

Look. There are channels for reporting crime. Paterno did what he was supposed to. He's a fall guy for the lapses of campus police.

[jbg]

Perhaps that's because "the right thing" is too often only apparent in hindsight. A lot of harm has been done because of over-zealous people making reports of child abuse without much 'proof' too; harm to innocent people and children.

Yes.

I know of a family that underwent an "investigation" when a sibling gave another sibling a tube of ointment rather than toothpaste by accident. The parents were investigated for abuse.

[cybercoma]

That's because Joe didn't do anything wrong...but he was part of an organization that did.

I bet you wouldn't be defending him for not reporting it if it was your kid or grandkid that was getting raped.

[Guest American Woman]

I bet you wouldn't be defending him for not reporting it if it was your kid or grandkid that was getting raped.

People usually do feel differently when it's their child involved, and those reactions aren't always rational - which is one reason why we can't take the law into our own hands.

Whether it's right or wrong, legal or illegal, isn't based on "emotions." Emotions affect how we feel, but no judge worthy of the position will make a verdict, determine what is right or wrong, based solely on how they feel.

How would you feel about someone who made an allegation of abuse based on what a third party said, absolutely no first hand knowledge themselves, and it turned out that the person making the accusation was in the wrong - and the family who was reported suffered? Kids were taken out of the home, put into foster care, parents lost jobs.

Say someone came up to you and said they saw someone you know and trust abusing their child. Would you run off to the police with that information?

[blueblood]

Yes...that is the nub of the matter, and all these "hind sight heroes" swear they would have marched down to police headquarters and made a prompt report. It's not that clear cut as you said. Joe says he should have done more, but that is in retrospect as well.

Looking back and connecting the dots, most universities and colleges are very reluctant to do the right thing in such cases. Ditto school districts.

Which of these heroes point of view are you referring to, the one who caught the perp with his hand in the cookie jar, or Jo pa?

[cybercoma]

How would you feel about someone who made an allegation of abuse based on what a third party said, absolutely no first hand knowledge themselves, and it turned out that the person making the accusation was in the wrong - and the family who was reported suffered? Kids were taken out of the home, put into foster care, parents lost jobs.

Say someone came up to you and said they saw someone you know and trust abusing their child. Would you run off to the police with that information?

Stacking the deck much?

I would be glad that the person reported what they knew to the police and allowed them to do their job, investigating the allegations. If it turned out that it wasn't the case, at least they had the integrity to do what is right. It's not up to that person to try and solve the case by him/herself. It's up to the police and investigators to do their job.