Hey let's talk about the Leafs

Black Dog · March 3, 2015

Phaneuf didn't build the team.... he just sucks as a player, that's all.

Phaneuf doesn't suck. He's simply miscast for his role.

I like how Kessel essentially threw the rest of his teammates under the bus! lol

Class act!

I think the rest of the NHL already did that for him.

The_Squid · March 3, 2015

Phil Kessel could be the best player in the league if he laid off the cheeseburgers and actually showed some grit and determination....

It shows great natural skill to be able to score at the level he does while being lazy and out of shape...

PrimeNumber · March 3, 2015

OK: what sports/leagues?

I have a Provincial Championship ring for High School football as a Wide Receiver. I won a Provincial and National Championship on the way to the Little League World Series in Taylor, Michigan where we did not win a championship. I continued to play Midget AAA baseball into my late teens and early 20's where I won two Provincial championships. Though in my later years we were downgraded to a Midget AA team as the city I'm from suffered a dip in baseball players so we could only make one team. I played hockey up to the Bantam level where I was drafted in the later rounds of the WHL entry draft by the Red Deer Rebels but after a short 4 game stint I was never called back. (I wasn't that good) Aside from that I don't want to give up to much of my personal identity based on where and when I played.

No. Teams win championships. And teams can have all kinds of personalities. Good teams find ways to work together even when they don't like or respect each other.

haha well good luck with that theory. We'll see how it works for Kane and Buffalo.

Again, you're talking about "experienced player" I'm talking about "mature individual". Completely different things.

These 2 things SHOULD go hand in hand, they haven't with Kane. Which is the point all of us have been trying to make to you.

It's interesting that Tim Murray, a guy who seems like he knows what he's doing, would bring in such a terrible human being to a team that's already one of the youngest teams in the league. Kane's punishment for being at cancer and terrible human being will be to play wing with a generational talent in Connor McDavid or a stud like Jack Eichel. Tough gig.

Kane punishment will be being traded from a playoff team to a bottom of the barrel team that will have to wait until the rest of it's core matures enough to make the playoffs. That could be anywhere from 2-5 years down the road. Hard to say how Kane will play when he gets back from his surgery. Kane couldn't find chemistry with any other player, I don't have much faith in his lone wolf style of play changing with anyone else.

I've heard all the speculation and the narratives around Kane. Like I said: there's two sides to every story. The other side is hockey is an extremely conservative culture (which you demonstrate quite well in this thread by endorsing a culture of bullying) and Kane already had a couple of strikes against him: he's young and cocky and he's black in a predominately white sport/market. Guys who march to the beat of their own drummers are seldom accepted. It doesn't surprise me that Kane might be a target for his teammates as a result. Whatever his faults, there's lots of blame to go around in that room.

haha yeah he's the target of another black player. Nice try with the race card there. Don't make excuses for the boy. The only blame was on himself. If he going to whine because he has a wet track suit and then not show up for a game because of it. That shows lack of respect for the rest if the players not involved in the incident. If someone throws your clothes in the shower you have it out with them, you don't take it out on the entire team. He's a cry baby and buffalo will see that mentality the moment he hits the ice.

Black Dog · March 4, 2015

I have a Provincial Championship ring for High School football as a Wide Receiver. I won a Provincial and National Championship on the way to the Little League World Series in Taylor, Michigan where we did not win a championship. I continued to play Midget AAA baseball into my late teens and early 20's where I won two Provincial championships. Though in my later years we were downgraded to a Midget AA team as the city I'm from suffered a dip in baseball players so we could only make one team. I played hockey up to the Bantam level where I was drafted in the later rounds of the WHL entry draft by the Red Deer Rebels but after a short 4 game stint I was never called back. (I wasn't that good) Aside from that I don't want to give up to much of my personal identity based on where and when I played.

So this kid stuff makes you an expert in the locker room dynamics of million dollar athletes. 'K bud.

These 2 things SHOULD go hand in hand, they haven't with Kane. Which is the point all of us have been trying to make to you.

And my point is there's no reason they should.

haha yeah he's the target of another black player. Nice try with the race card there.

I wasn't talking about the locker room incident as much as how Kane was treated at large by fans and media (see the fuss over his haircuts, his Instagram opitcs etc.)

Don't make excuses for the boy. The only blame was on himself. If he going to whine because he has a wet track suit and then not show up for a game because of it. That shows lack of respect for the rest if the players not involved in the incident. If someone throws your clothes in the shower you have it out with them, you don't take it out on the entire team. He's a cry baby and buffalo will see that mentality the moment he hits the ice.

So not showing up because you've been disrespected by your teammates is disrespecting your teammates. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm done with this subject and your Richie Incognito/Don Cherry b.s.

Mighty AC · March 4, 2015

Phil Kessel could be the best player in the league if he laid off the cheeseburgers and actually showed some grit and determination....

It shows great natural skill to be able to score at the level he does while being lazy and out of shape...

Phil could never be considered an elite player, despite the goals, but he could be a solid asset on an already defensively sound team. Phil could be Pat Kane on a team like Chicago. Pat Kane would be something like a Kessel in TO.

Mighty AC · March 4, 2015

Phaneuf doesn't suck. He's simply miscast for his role.

Agreed. He's not a top defenseman or captain, but unfortunately he's paid like one. He'd be a fine third or fourth blueliner with some time on the power play to use that good shot. The bloated contract isn't his fault, but fans get angry when a guy chews up that much cap space and performs the way he has.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Mighty AC

Boges · March 4, 2015

I like how Lupul and Phaneuf basically threatened to sue the part owners of the team.

I didn't think a Teacher's Union owning the team could be worse than having Bell and Rogers owning them.

Black Dog · March 4, 2015

Phil could never be considered an elite player, despite the goals, but he could be a solid asset on an already defensively sound team. Phil could be Pat Kane on a team like Chicago. Pat Kane would be something like a Kessel in TO.

The idea that Kessel is not an elite player is laughable. Scoring goals is the single most important and valuable thing a player can do and Kessel is, at worst, a top 5 player in that respect.

Mighty AC · March 4, 2015

The idea that Kessel is not an elite player is laughable. Scoring goals is the single most important and valuable thing a player can do and Kessel is, at worst, a top 5 player in that respect.

It depends on how you define elite, I guess. I reserve the definition for a higher standard of play. Phil can certainly put the puck in the net, but that's about it. I compared Phil to Pat Kane earlier, but even Kane is a more complete player. Phil is very much like a Bret Hull. He doesn't make anyone else better, he's lazy without the puck, he's a large defensive liability but he uses a very accurate and quick shot effectively.

Black Dog · March 4, 2015

It depends on how you define elite, I guess. I reserve the definition for a higher standard of play. Phil can certainly put the puck in the net, but that's about it.

Isn't that the point of the game?

I compared Phil to Pat Kane earlier, but even Kane is a more complete player. Phil is very much like a Bret Hull. He doesn't make anyone else better, he's lazy without the puck, he's a large defensive liability but he uses a very accurate and quick shot effectively.

I think Tyler Bozak is proof that Kessel makes his linemates better. The guy is a slug and he looks like an actual NHLer with Phil. As for Kessel's defensive abilities, well, who cares? The name of the game is outscoring and on a real team, I have no doubt Kessel would excel in that role. The fact he's done what he's done on the freaking Leafs is more of a endorsement than anything else I can think of.

Mighty AC · March 4, 2015

Isn't that the point of the game?

As for Kessel's defensive abilities, well, who cares?

Teams also have to keep the puck out of their net, that's how winning works. Over the last three years Phil is 10th in goal scoring, but still a minus 30. Like Kane Phil is useful to the handful of defensively sound teams in the league. On the bulk of teams that have defensive holes, like Toronto, Phil is going to be hated for his incomplete game and lack of effort. Maybe he can find a home with a team like Nashville, Montreal, NYR, St. Louis, etc.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Mighty AC

Black Dog · March 4, 2015

Teams also have to keep the puck out of their net, that's how winning works.

That's why they are called "teams" no?

Over the last three years Phil is 10th in goal scoring, but still a minus 30

Yeah that happens when you play on a shitty team. The Leafs are -35 in that same span BTW.

Like Kane Phil is useful to the handful of defensively sound teams in the league. On the bulk of teams that have defensive holes, like Toronto, Phil is going to be hated for his incomplete game and lack of effort. Maybe he can find a home with a team like Nashville, Montreal, NYR, St. Louis, etc.

The point I'm making is such criticism is completely unfounded because Kessel isn't responsible for the collective failure of the team and their inability to properly utilize such a rare and valuable asset.

Mighty AC · March 4, 2015

That's why they are called "teams" no?

NHL teams play very tight systems where every player has a role in all three zones. Phil's play is often like giving the opposition mini power plays within each shift.

Yeah that happens when you play on a shitty team. The Leafs are -35 in that same span BTW.

Phil plays on the top line, which should typically outperforms team statistics. Look at this year, Phil is a -22, but Kadri is -5, Phaneuf -8, Lupul -1. That's a problem.

The point I'm making is such criticism is completely unfounded because Kessel isn't responsible for the collective failure of the team and their inability to properly utilize such a rare and valuable asset.

Fan criticism is rarely accurate. Dion and Clarkson shouldn't be blamed because management overpaid. Phil is less than a one dimensional player, but he has always been so. Toronto isn't a good fit for a guy that can only finish. Fans can't blame him be being the same guy he always was, but fans are always going to be angry when their team sucks. Edited March 4, 2015 by Mighty AC

PrimeNumber · March 5, 2015

So this kid stuff makes you an expert in the locker room dynamics of million dollar athletes. 'K bud.

Well I can guarantee that I've played at a higher level than you have, so more of an expert than yourself. :rolleyes:

Trust me the locker room doesn't change much over the years, just the players that are in it and their age. It's a hierarchy and when you think you're above that hierarchy you won't make many friends.

And my point is there's no reason they should.

There's no reason experience should not equal maturity? That's your problem right there, you're an enabler.

I wasn't talking about the locker room incident as much as how Kane was treated at large by fans and media (see the fuss over his haircuts, his Instagram opitcs etc.)

Fans that absolutely love Buff. So again the race card does not work here, nice try though.

So not showing up because you've been disrespected by your teammates is disrespecting your teammates. Gotcha.

Obviously not all 22 members of the roster threw his track suit in the shower. It was one player. So punishing the other 21 players by not showing up is disrespectful.

Anyway, I'm done with this subject and your Richie Incognito/Don Cherry b.s.

You'd make a great coach.

"Hey guys I don't care if you get along, just score me some goals."

hahaha you'd be a perennial first overall drafter though so I guess there's that, ask Edmonton how that's worked out for them.

Edited March 5, 2015 by PrimeNumber

PrimeNumber · March 5, 2015

Kessel is another player that I would not want on my team. He's a goal scorer nothing more and for $10 mil a season I'd much rather have a competent two-way goal scorer like Rick Nash or Corey Perry who will end up costing less money and being more effective. Or an Ovechkin who also costs $10 mil a season and is shaping up to be a good two-way goal scorer this season. Guys like Kessel cheat the defensive zone and open up the ice for your opponents. He's a liability and until he decides he wants to play a two-way game I'd rather not have him. When he scores one goal for every two that are scored while he's on the ice, he is not very effective.

Black Dog · March 5, 2015

Kessel is another player that I would not want on my team. He's a goal scorer nothing more and for $10 mil a season I'd much rather have a competent two-way goal scorer like Rick Nash or Corey Perry who will end up costing less money and being more effective. Or an Ovechkin who also costs $10 mil a season and is shaping up to be a good two-way goal scorer this season. Guys like Kessel cheat the defensive zone and open up the ice for your opponents. He's a liability and until he decides he wants to play a two-way game I'd rather not have him. When he scores one goal for every two that are scored while he's on the ice, he is not very effective.

All the guys you've listed have, at one point or another, been criticized for the same stuff Kessel is. Nash was a big soft floater in C-bus. Perry is a diving whiner. And Ovi is basically the poster child for not giving a crap about D (up until this season, his 10th in the league). It's also misleading to talk about $10 Million dollars when his cap hit is $8M (Ovi's is $9.5; real salaries don't matter to anyone who isn't signing the cheques).

Guess all that experience in youth sports doesn't mean you actually know jack about sports after all, eh?

Edited March 5, 2015 by Black Dog

PrimeNumber · March 5, 2015

All the guys you've listed have, at one point or another, been criticized for the same stuff Kessel is. Nash was a big soft floater in C-bus. Perry is a diving whiner. And Ovi is basically the poster child for not giving a crap about D (up until this season, his 10th in the league). It's also misleading to talk about $10 Million dollars when his cap hit is $8M (Ovi's is $9.5; real salaries don't matter to anyone who isn't signing the cheques).

Guess all that experience in youth sports doesn't mean you actually know jack about sports after all, eh?

Yea but the difference is all of them have changed the way they play their games and are still scoring while playing responsibly and their teams are all doing better because of it. Being a 3-zone player is always going to trump being a one-dimensional player like Kessel and until he changes, he's going to be a liability while he's on the ice. Salaries don't matter for some teams like Toronto and even Washington for that matter but for the bottom 16 revenue teams in the league, salaries matter. so basically for an extra $1.5 million I can get a player who can score goals, hit and play 3-zone hockey compared to someone who can only score goals and not even near as many? Sign me up, I'll take 2.

Kessel is overrated, he can stay in Toronto.

Guess all your experience being an armchair athlete hasn't proved you know jack about hockey.

Edited March 5, 2015 by PrimeNumber

Black Dog · March 5, 2015

Yea but the difference is all of them have changed the way they play their games and are still scoring while playing responsibly and their teams are all doing better because of it.

Or the teams have changed the way they play/are better.

Being a 3-zone player is always going to trump being a one-dimensional player like Kessel and until he changes, he's going to be a liability while he's on the ice.

Until Kessel is playing for a team that isn't a basket case, it's difficult to tease out his true value. There's strong evidence he tilts the ice when he's on it (that is: the team shoots more/has the puck more/defends less when he's playing versus when he's not) though. If you give a smart coach the choice between a guy who can't score but plays in all three zones and scorer who only plays in the other team's end, they'll pick the latter every time.

Salaries don't matter for some teams like Toronto and even Washington for that matter but for the bottom 16 revenue teams in the league, salaries matter. so basically for an extra $1.5 million I can get a player who can score goals, hit and play 3-zone hockey compared to someone who can only score goals and not even near as many? Sign me up, I'll take 2.

Ovechkin doesn't get paid for backchecking.

Guess all your experience being an armchair athlete hasn't proved you know jack about hockey.

This isn't even a sentence. Too many softballs to the old melon?

PrimeNumber · March 5, 2015

Or the teams have changed the way they play/are better.

Of course the teams have changed, because their star players have its not a hard concept to understand. Of course their better, their star players now play more than one zone.

Until Kessel is playing for a team that isn't a basket case, it's difficult to tease out his true value. There's strong evidence he tilts the ice when he's on it (that is: the team shoots more/has the puck more/defends less when he's playing versus when he's not) though. If you give a smart coach the choice between a guy who can't score but plays in all three zones and scorer who only plays in the other team's end, they'll pick the latter every time.

No that's incredibly wrong. Most of the teams that have won cups in the last ten years build around two-way forwards: Toews, Kopitar, Getzlaf, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Staal, Crosby and Bergeron and this year Ovechkin. Its how you win, building around players like Kessel is how you win high draft picks.

Ovechkin doesn't get paid for backchecking.

This isn't even a sentence. Too many softballs to the old melon?

He might not get paid to do it, but he does it anyways. That's the difference.

I don't know whats so hard to understand about that sentence?

Arm chair athelete= someone who thinks they know everything about a sport but have very little experience actually playing it at a competitive level.

Edited March 5, 2015 by PrimeNumber

Black Dog · March 5, 2015

Of course the teams have changed, because their star players have its not a hard concept to understand. Of course their better, their star players now play more than one zone.

Or the teams have players that minimize the weaknesses of their stars.

No that's incredibly wrong. Most of the teams that have won cups in the last ten years build around two-way forwards: Toews, Kopitar, Getzlaf, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Staal, Crosby and Bergeron and this year Ovechkin. Its how you win, building around players like Kessel is how you win high draft picks.

You missed the entire comparison. In fact, you're missing the entire point.The Leafs' problem isn't Kessel, it's they don't have a Toews-type to play with him.

He might not get paid to do it, but he does it anyways. That's the difference.

Now he does. After 10 years in the league.

I don't know whats so hard to understand about that sentence?

Shocker.

Arm chair athelete= someone who thinks they know everything about a sport but have very little experience actually playing it at a competitive level.

And yet the most successful coaches and managers in hockey tend to be guys who never played at an elite level while guys like PJ Stock or Kelly Hrudey or Jeff O'neill are some of biggest dummies around. Go figure.

Mighty AC · March 5, 2015

The fact that Kessel is only useful in such a narrow role and requires other players to make up for his deficiences is why he is not an elite player. Just a Brett Hull type. A talented finisher...but that's it.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Mighty AC

Black Dog · March 5, 2015

The fact that Kessel is only useful in such a narrow role and requires other players to make up for his deficiences is why he is not an elite player. Just a Brett Hull type. A talented finisher...but that's it.

You take just about any elite player in the league and stick them on a junk team, they won't look as good. Hell Crosby scored 102 points in his rookie year on a team that won 22 games. Or look at John Tavares or Steven Stamkos as more recent examples. Nobody can do it alone and Kessel is very much alone on the Leafs.

Second, you make it sound like guys who can score like Kessel are a dime a dozen when it's quite the opposite. There's loads of guys who can pop 20 goals and be responsible in their own end. 30+ goal scorers are considerably harder to find.

overthere · March 5, 2015

If Kessel was such a valuable player to the other 29 teams, he'd have been traded already.

Black Dog · March 5, 2015

If Kessel was such a valuable player to the other 29 teams, he'd have been traded already.

:rolleyes:

You want to take a second to think about why this is dumb?

PrimeNumber · March 6, 2015

Or the teams have players that minimize the weaknesses of their stars.

Most of those teams top lines haven't changed enough to warrant that theory.

You missed the entire comparison. In fact, you're missing the entire point.The Leafs' problem isn't Kessel, it's they don't have a Toews-type to play with him.

The problem is they're spending Toews money on a Kessel like player. Which is the whole point of this entire argument that everyone is presenting. He makes far to much money for what he does on the ice.

Now he does. After 10 years in the league.

Better late than never. Kessels been doing it for 9. so I guess if he doesn't change the way he plays by next year, by your own standards, we can then criticize his play? Makes sense....

Shocker.

In other words you fully understand it and can't explain why it doesn't make sense. Got it.

And yet the most successful coaches and managers in hockey tend to be guys who never played at an elite level while guys like PJ Stock or Kelly Hrudey or Jeff O'neill are some of biggest dummies around. Go figure.

hahahahaha that's the single dumbest thing anyone has ever said. No the most successful coaches aren't just people who have never played at a higher level Quenneville, Pat Quinn, Sutter, Wilson, Babcock, Trotz, PMo, Vigneault. All great current and former coaches who have all had a playing career of some sort or another.So no the most successful coaches do not tend to be guys who have never played. It's easy to take a handful of coaches at the bottom of the pile who were ex-players without looking at whose on the top.

Second, you make it sound like guys who can score like Kessel are a dime a dozen when it's quite the opposite. There's loads of guys who can pop 20 goals and be responsible in their own end. 30+ goal scorers are considerably harder to find.

Last season there was 32 players within 2 goals of 30 or higher. Toronto had 2 of these players. If it's all about scoring goals, why then, with two 30 goals scorers was Toronto still a terrible team? And why now with a possible 2 30-goal scorers is Toronto still a terrible team?

I'll tell you why, because neither of those 30 goal scorers plays a two-way game, Hell this is damn near the first thing they teach you at 5 years old in learn to play. It should be drilled into his head by now.

Edited March 6, 2015 by PrimeNumber