Greece to hold referendum on debt deal

[kactus]

And Greece is going to do what to France and Germany and how are they going to pay for it?

They are not going to pay back since if they opted out they will file for bankcruptcy. The rest of the market will definitely feel the pinch. time will tell...

[GostHacked]

What country on this planet right now can pay back their debt?

What country spends more than it makes through taxes?

Where does all this money come from?

You think it's only Greece that's in trouble? Canary in the coalmine, that is what I say.

[wyly]

Greece should do what Iceland did - back stop the deposits and let the creditors take the losses.

Dusseldorf never should have lent the money in the first place so too bad, so bad, take the loss.

Will Greece Pull an Iceland?

huge difference in scale...iceland is insignificant, small change with a population of about 300k...greek default can take down banks then trigger other countries to default...

[kactus]

What country on this planet right now can pay back their debt?

What country spends more than it makes through taxes?

Where does all this money come from?

You think it's only Greece that's in trouble? Canary in the coalmine, that is what I say.

What's the alternative? If Greece opts out things can even get worse. All the market indications are pointing that way.

[blueblood]

Greece should do what Iceland did - back stop the deposits and let the creditors take the losses.

Dusseldorf never should have lent the money in the first place so too bad, so bad, take the loss.

Will Greece Pull an Iceland?

The only problem with backstopping deposits is the moral hazard created by banks to act foolishly with money as the depositors/bondholders won't care as the government will bail them out if they make another foolish mistake.

If there was no backstopping, there would be more incentive to make proper, sounder loans.

[wyly]

They are not going to pay back since if they opted out they will file for bankcruptcy. The rest of the market will definitely feel the pinch. time will tell...

economic suicide for greece, it'll be an economic backwater without the EU, it's workers will lose the right to work in the EU and it's products could be subject to EU tariffs...any greek with a job will think long and hard before rejecting the bailout...government pay cheques will stop going out before any referendum can be held as further funds have been cut off...

[Smallc]

They aren't going to get the opportunity to vote on the bailout...a good thing.

Seriously though, I've heard many times that the countries of Southern Europe should not be in the EU.

[wyly]

Seriously though, I've heard many times that the countries of Southern Europe should not be in the EU.

why?...it's their fiscal polices that get them into trouble, if they want social programs like northern european countries they need to be willing to pay the taxes that are required to pay for those benefits...being socialist doesn't equal being irresponsible financially...

[GostHacked]

They aren't going to get the opportunity to vote on the bailout...a good thing.

Seriously though, I've heard many times that the countries of Southern Europe should not be in the EU.

So people no longer have a say in what goes in in the country??

[wyly]

So people no longer have a say in what goes in in the country??

neither do we for the next 4 years...

[dre]

What would be good is to audit the entire relationship between greece and its creditors, and investigate the participation of fraudulent enterprises such as goldman sachs.

And we know how much REAL PROPERTY was lent to greece it could pay that back. But most of the money lent to greece was probably not backed by any real property... the banks didnt actually turn over any wealth they just created entries on a computer, and wrote new money into existance. I see no moral reason for Greece to pay this portion back, because the banks loan to them was an act of fraud anyways... and its probably about 90% of their debt.

[olp1fan]

so the referendum thing was just to negotiate a better deal?

greece took a page out of quebecs handbook

[Smallc]

why?...it's their fiscal polices that get them into trouble, if they want social programs like northern european countries they need to be willing to pay the taxes that are required to pay for those benefits...being socialist doesn't equal being irresponsible financially...

Apparently, their economies aren't competitive with those of the north, and so a common currency makes the situation even worse. Greece, Italy, and Spain just aren't that productive.

[wyly]

Apparently, their economies aren't competitive with those of the north, and so a common currency makes the situation even worse. Greece, Italy, and Spain just aren't that productive.

that is the obvious problem with partial unification..their currency was unified but not fiscal policies...it was the equivalent of you being a sound financial planner then having your credit rating tied to a brother or sister who was a financial basket case, the result being his/her bankruptcy dragging you down as well...

[wyly]

so the referendum thing was just to negotiate a better deal?

greece took a page out of quebecs handbook

if that was the case it their bluff has been called, the other the eu taxpayers footing the bill are pissed...

[kactus]

if that was the case it their bluff has been called, the other the eu taxpayers footing the bill are pissed...

I think you will find that's an understatement especially from the UK's stance.

[dre]

why?...it's their fiscal polices that get them into trouble

Theres more too it than that. You have a whole system designed profiting from all this national debt. That causes overly favorable credit conditions. You also have fraudulent companies like goldman sachs helping Greece do enron-style accounting tricks to hide their debt.

You cant just blame Greece for this or government policies, because after the system changed in 1971 and money became a completely imaginary and fictional construct virtually every single productive nation in the world has seen debt sky rocket.

This stuff is the result of a banking/monetary system thats central premise (loaning out that which you do not have in your posession) is fraud.

http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebtImages/DebtRealDollars1940-2009.gif

Theres a graph of US debt. Within a few years of the implementation of fraudulent currency debt is out of control.

Canadas graph looks about the same.

http://www.dancingsamurai.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/can_debt.jpg

So its just not realistic to simply say "well countries should just be more responsible" because its a structural impossibility in our system for all the players to run balanced budgets or pay back debt. At the very most a FEW could do this, because there IS NOT ENOUGH DOLLARS IN THE GLOBAL MONEY SUPPLY TO PAY BACK ALL THIS DEBT.

The dollars just dont exist.

To understand this you need to look at how the system works.

1. You deposit 100 dollars in a bank.

2. The bank puts 10 dollars in its account with the central bank then loans the remaining 90 money out to Bill.

3. Bill buys something and that same 90 dollars ends up in another bank. They deposit 9 dollars in their account with the central bank, and loan out the remaining 81 dollars to Tom.

Based on your hundred dollar deposit the bank is now collecting interest on 171 dollars. 71 dollars of monetary expansion money has been created.

Now... heres the crux of the issue...

Lets pretend that those were the only transactions in the economy that started with a money supply of your $100 dollars.

The money supply has now grown to 171 dollars. Bill and Tom now owe the bank that principle PLUS INTEREST. BIll owes 96 dollars to the bank for the 90 he borrowed, and Tom owes 84 for the 81 he borrowed.

Together they owe 180 dollars. But its utterly impossible for them to repay this debt because theres only 171 dollars in the money supply. One of them is absolutely guaranteed to default, unless the money supply is perpetually increased, or the banks invest every single penny of what they have collected in usury back into the economy and that just doesnt happen.

So its easy to say "well so and so should not have overspent" but the reality is that the system mathematically GUARANTEES defaults. The only way defaults can be avoided is by constantly increasing the size of the money supply and constantly increasing the ammount of debt.

And again you can see that happening here... a debt spiral starting only a few years after currency became a fraudulent construct.

http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebtImages/DebtRealDollars1940-2009.gif

http://www.dancingsamurai.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/can_debt.jpg

Edited November 3, 2011 by dre

[maple_leafs182]

Theres really not much to regulate. The government would still create money like it does now, it would just issue it directly to people in the economy that need it and have good credit... or it could spend the money into existance on a road or a bridge and it would enter the economy as wages. Taxes at that point would not be the governments primary source of revenue so they would be much lower. Taxes would probably take on a different function... price stability. If the government had overissued credit it could take some money back out of the economy with taxation. If it had under issued credit they would send out checks instead of bills, and prices would be stable.

It would also make it completely impossible for the government to build up monetary debt.

Have private interests manage our money supply is a really bad idea because the people who control money control pretty much everything. The only private system that wouldnt be a complete monetary prison would be a system of self issued credit.

I get what your saying and I would prefer that kind of system over the current system. Banks make a lot of profits so why not use that money for government programs instead of taxing the people. It also doesn't make sense for the government to get loans from banks or the BoC at interest when it could just loan itself money at zero percent interest.

But who sets the interest rates? what is to stop the government from making bad policies and loaning out to the wrong people like what happened in the US and their housing market.

[dre]

I get what your saying and I would prefer that kind of system over the current system. Banks make a lot of profits so why not use that money for government programs instead of taxing the people. It also doesn't make sense for the government to get loans from banks or the BoC at interest when it could just loan itself money at zero percent interest.

But who sets the interest rates? what is to stop the government from making bad policies and loaning out to the wrong people like what happened in the US and their housing market.

The interest rates would be set by government legislation that creates spending, since that usury was now the government primary source of income. It it wanted to spend more it would have to raise the rates, or the economy would have to grow (which means more borrowing and more usury). This is a good thing because when the government spends, taxpayers will be more tightly coupled to the wealth that backs that spending. They will know that if they vote for big new programs their mortgage rates will go up.

Right now this linkage doesnt even exist. Governments can spend gigantic new programs into creation without raising taxes, and while keep interest rates at near zero. Theres no incentive at all to live within your means and thats why almost no countries have.

Having said that you are right. The government could still mismanage this system. If they issued too much credit or too little credit then you would get price instability.

Edited November 3, 2011 by dre

[dre]

Sorry dupe post.

Edited November 3, 2011 by dre

[dre]

Theres more too it than that. You have a whole system designed profiting from all this national debt. That causes overly favorable credit conditions. You also have fraudulent companies like goldman sachs helping Greece do enron-style accounting tricks to hide their debt.

You cant just blame Greece for this or government policies, because after the system changed in 1971 and money became a completely imaginary and fictional construct virtually every single productive nation in the world has seen debt sky rocket.

This stuff is the result of a banking/monetary system thats central premise (loaning out that which you do not have in your posession) is fraud.

http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebtImages/DebtRealDollars1940-2009.gif

Theres a graph of US debt. Within a few years of the implementation of fraudulent currency debt is out of control.

Canadas graph looks about the same.

http://www.dancingsamurai.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/can_debt.jpg

So its just not realistic to simply say "well countries should just be more responsible" because its a structural impossibility in our system for all the players to run balanced budgets or pay back debt. At the very most a FEW could do this, because there IS NOT ENOUGH DOLLARS IN THE GLOBAL MONEY SUPPLY TO PAY BACK ALL THIS DEBT.

The dollars just dont exist.

To understand this you need to look at how the system works.

1. You deposit 100 dollars in a bank.

2. The bank puts 10 dollars in its account with the central bank then loans the remaining 90 money out to Bill.

3. Bill buys something and that same 90 dollars ends up in another bank. They deposit 9 dollars in their account with the central bank, and loan out the remaining 81 dollars to Tom.

Based on your hundred dollar deposit the bank is now collecting interest on 171 dollars. 71 dollars of monetary expansion money has been created.

Now... heres the crux of the issue...

Lets pretend that those were the only transactions in the economy that started with a money supply of your $100 dollars.

The money supply has now grown to 171 dollars. Bill and Tom now owe the bank that principle PLUS INTEREST. BIll owes 96 dollars to the bank for the 90 he borrowed, and Tom owes 84 for the 81 he borrowed.

Together they owe 180 dollars. But its utterly impossible for them to repay this debt because theres only 171 dollars in the money supply. One of them is absolutely guaranteed to default, unless the money supply is perpetually increased, or the banks invest every single penny of what they have collected in usury back into the economy and that just doesnt happen.

So its easy to say "well so and so should not have overspent" but the reality is that the system mathematically GUARANTEES defaults. The only way defaults can be avoided is by constantly increasing the size of the money supply and constantly increasing the ammount of debt.

And again you can see that happening here... a debt spiral starting only a few years after currency became a fraudulent construct.

http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebtImages/DebtRealDollars1940-2009.gif

http://www.dancingsamurai.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/can_debt.jpg

So now that we understand where all this so called "money" comes from... lets flesh this out a little more.

Bill and Tom spend this magic money created by the banks on Greek Bonds! Greece defaults and instruments containing Greek debt lose all their value. Bill and Tom default on their obligation to the bank.

Who got ripped off here?

NOBODY AT ALL! The banks never had the money they loaned Bill and Tom in the first place. They arent out any real property. Bill and Tom didnt lose... they arent out any real property either.

[wyly]

referendum option has been called off...pensions and jobs trump opinion...

[Smallc]

That, and the French and German leaders said they would expel them from the EU if this wasn't done soon. It's too much of a danger to wait for referendum results.

[eyeball]

referendum option has been called off...pensions and jobs trump opinion...

Said the people...

[wyly]

That, and the French and German leaders said they would expel them from the EU if this wasn't done soon. It's too much of a danger to wait for referendum results.

with no government funds to pay pensions, public workers including military, police and fire and every other branch of the government the riots they had so far would be minor events compared to what would come...

really it was dumb move on the PM's part did he really think the EU was going to prop up his country financially so it could vote on whether they were going to pay back those funds?...try that with your own family, "hey I want borrow a few million for a month, in the mean time I'll talk it over with my family if we're going to pay it back or not." ya I'm sure that'll work ...