Greece to hold referendum on debt deal

[GostHacked]

Or you can argue that banks have been lending money to the wrong people. In other words to those who realistically can not afford to pay back.

Which has really nothing to do with the concept of capitalism, though. I am simply pointing out that people who say capitalism is bad is missing the point here.

[GostHacked]

Complete nonsense. The banks are who funded Greece's spending spree over the last 2 decades. Greece is in this position because of Greece. Nobody else. They decided to deficit spend massively for a long period of time. Now the bill is due.

Greece is the canary in the global coal mine that is the global financial market.

[kactus]

Which has really nothing to do with the concept of capitalism, though. I am simply pointing out that people who say capitalism is bad is missing the point here.

I don't think I have criticized the concept of capitalism to qualify as one of those people. I like to think this is clear from my previous posts. To follow up from earlier, I like to think that banks have learned their lessons.

More development on Greece below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15538809

[GostHacked]

I don't think I have criticized the concept of capitalism to qualify as one of those people. I like to think this is clear from my previous posts. To follow up from earlier, I like to think that banks have learned their lessons.

More development on Greece below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15538809

I get you now. But I don't think the banks have not learned their lesson, this is why we are in this predicament. They might be doing one last grab before a good deal of it collapses.

[maple_leafs182]

Why? They owe the money. You can't just write it off. Otherwise it will have domino effect on other EU economies as it has already taken its toll on Germans.

You can just write off that debt, a collapse is what needs to happen.

Or you can argue that banks have been lending money to the wrong people. In other words to those who realistically can not afford to pay back.

I don't blame the banks as much as I blame the government. In my opinion the government creates the moral hazard. In many countries governments insure bank accounts which takes the risk off of the people who put their money in banks, that is to say the people don't care what kind of loans or risks their banks take because their money is safe.

I think the biggest problem is we have governments too involved in the economy, the best thing we can do is get governments out of the economy and allow the free market to correct itself.

[Wild Bill]

I hope Greece defaults. They should follow icelands example and tell international bankers to go ____ themselves. The sooner that the international monetary system collapses the sooner we cant started building a functional and honest credit system.

You seem to believe that Greece could default and there would be no repercussions. Suppose you had been living off your credit cards for months. They were all so maxed out that you had nowhere near enough money coming in to pay your rent and food, let alone your card payments.

So you say, screw it! I'm not paying the bastards!

First thing that happens is - all your credit is cancelled!

Aren't you going to get rather hungry rather quickly?

If Greece were to default half of her businesses would go bankrupt and close overnight. Those that remain would have severe financial problems if they had to import anything from outside the country. There would be no current account type of paying - foreign suppliers would insist on COD terms only. Greece would have to hope that it could produce internally ALL it's food! Any factories that needed foreign materials would likely have to close immediately, in today's "Just In Time" economies.

So half the people would be unemployed and most would be getting very hungry. Is Greece energy self-sufficient? If not, cars would come to a halt. Fortunately, they have a warm climate so they wouldn't freeze.

Perhaps you would suggest they simply build some windmills. As a long term solution there may be some merit to the idea. However, could they implement such solutions within a couple of weeks? How long could the people hold out?

Your dream doesn't seem to be very practical...

[Shady]

You seem to believe that Greece could default and there would be no repercussions. Suppose you had been living off your credit cards for months. They were all so maxed out that you had nowhere near enough money coming in to pay your rent and food, let alone your card payments.

So you say, screw it! I'm not paying the bastards!

First thing that happens is - all your credit is cancelled!

Aren't you going to get rather hungry rather quickly?

If Greece were to default half of her businesses would go bankrupt and close overnight. Those that remain would have severe financial problems if they had to import anything from outside the country. There would be no current account type of paying - foreign suppliers would insist on COD terms only. Greece would have to hope that it could produce internally ALL it's food! Any factories that needed foreign materials would likely have to close immediately, in today's "Just In Time" economies.

So half the people would be unemployed and most would be getting very hungry. Is Greece energy self-sufficient? If not, cars would come to a halt. Fortunately, they have a warm climate so they wouldn't freeze.

Perhaps you would suggest they simply build some windmills. As a long term solution there may be some merit to the idea. However, could they implement such solutions within a couple of weeks? How long could the people hold out?

Your dream doesn't seem to be very practical...

Well said. Not only that, but it effects everybody else that pays their bills on time, with no problems.

[maple_leafs182]

Oh, Greece is too big too fail, why didn't you say so.

I really don't see bailing out Greece as some sort of solution. It will be short term gain at a long term loss. Instead Greece should default, they should let all the bad debt in the system be liquidated. Yes there will be pain but their will be long term gain, Greece will finally be able to get back to growth, the debt is killing their economy.

I wanna get the deal right, they want to recapitalize the banks with one trillion Euros? That is a lot of money. Since banks usually loan out at a 9:1 ration, then potentially there can be ten trillion Euros created as a result of this deal, but I am sure a lot of that money will go towards buying Greek bonds. This deal will just create a lot of inflation, it will hurt the Greek and European people later on as they see their cost of living increase.

[wyly]

I'm stunned by the stupidity of this latest move by the greeks it's insane...spitting in the eye of the very people that are offering them help(the eu)...

what good do they think will happen by voting on this?...if they reject the bailout they're done, they'll wake up the next day with no jobs, savings vanish, pensions gone, worthless currency(drachma)and kicked out of the eu...total financial chaos...

Edited November 1, 2011 by wyly

[wyly]

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-news/greece-gambles-on-referendum-for-new-debt-deal/article2220043/?service=mobile

say bye to the E.U in 2012, hello new world order

this will effect everyone even us so be carefull what you wish for...

[olp1fan]

referendum idea is almost dead

[olp1fan]

this will effect everyone even us so be carefull what you wish for...

who said i wished for it?

i thought it was suicide

[blueblood]

I'm stunned by the stupidity of this latest move by the greeks it's insane...spitting in the eye of the very people that are offering them help(the eu)...

what good do they think will happen by voting on this?...if they reject the bailout they're done, they'll wake up the next day with no jobs, savings vanish, pensions gone, worthless currency(drachma)and kicked out of the eu...total financial chaos...

As much as I don't like bailouts, the greeks should take this one. They don't have the same advantages argentina has, and the bailout at least has some restrictions. Make no mistake, the greeks are going to be wandering in the desert for quite some time.

[bush_cheney2004]

...what good do they think will happen by voting on this?...if they reject the bailout they're done, they'll wake up the next day with no jobs, savings vanish, pensions gone, worthless currency(drachma)and kicked out of the eu...total financial chaos...

Let those who scream for more "democracy" and tyranny by the majority take note. This goes for all the protesting OCCUPY clowns too.

[dre]

You seem to believe that Greece could default and there would be no repercussions. Suppose you had been living off your credit cards for months. They were all so maxed out that you had nowhere near enough money coming in to pay your rent and food, let alone your card payments.

So you say, screw it! I'm not paying the bastards!

First thing that happens is - all your credit is cancelled!

Aren't you going to get rather hungry rather quickly?

If Greece were to default half of her businesses would go bankrupt and close overnight. Those that remain would have severe financial problems if they had to import anything from outside the country. There would be no current account type of paying - foreign suppliers would insist on COD terms only. Greece would have to hope that it could produce internally ALL it's food! Any factories that needed foreign materials would likely have to close immediately, in today's "Just In Time" economies.

So half the people would be unemployed and most would be getting very hungry. Is Greece energy self-sufficient? If not, cars would come to a halt. Fortunately, they have a warm climate so they wouldn't freeze.

Perhaps you would suggest they simply build some windmills. As a long term solution there may be some merit to the idea. However, could they implement such solutions within a couple of weeks? How long could the people hold out?

Your dream doesn't seem to be very practical...

I never said there wouldnt be repercussions. Those are inevitable now because they they overspent. They SHOULD lose their credit. If they stay in that system it will own them until the end of time.

If your debt problems are so big that your creditors are going to own you for life even you pay back as much as you can, then theres a good chance bankruptcy will help you. They would get out from underneath all that debt and interest, and extract themselves from a system that is designed to keep them in perpetual debt for someone elses profit.

After that they have to rebuild their currency based on the real value of goods and services in their marketplace.

If Greece were to default half of her businesses would go bankrupt and close overnight.

Well... that sounds like a guess on your part. But at the end of the day the sustainable part of their economy is based on the demand for products and services, and the ability of people to produce them. Even if they ditched the entire economic monetary regime and made trasactions in using small dried up berries that would STILL be what underpinned the economy.

I know a friend who manages a moneymart. Their whole business model is to try and get people into loop where they need a payday loan a few days before each check. The end resulting being you keep paying interest forever. I asked her what someone should do if they are stuck in that loop (which many people get stuck in for years). She said unequivocally that you should GET YOURSELF OUT OF THE SYSTEM, and default. Otherwise youre a prisoner of that debt forever.

The international monetary system operates under the same principle, except that it doesnt honestly fund its loans like Money Mart does... it creates money on the fly by expanding the money supply.

People seem to have a hard time realizing that you cant fix a debt problem by borrowing more money.

And this whole threat of doom and gloom by the bankers has been used since medieval times. They want you to believe that if they werent supplying the "money", that suddenly the breadmaker would stop making bread! The butcher would stop selling meat! And the seamstress would stop making clothes.

Everybody would all just up and die

The fact is that if you look at how the system works, and the fact that none of the so called "money" lent by the international banking system even exists as anything besides monetary expansion, which we pay usury on, one thing becomes pretty clear... The longer the system runs the more that will be owed to the banks and eventually they will have ALL the money and after forclosure proceedings all the real property as well.

I posted some examples in another thread recently that illustrate in very simple terms where this system will lead us if its allowed to continue. Its mathematically impossible for it to produce anything but a perpetual debt spiral until it collapses.

Edited November 1, 2011 by dre

[dre]

I don't care who is lending the money...I sure as hell know it isn't mine to demand and I have no human right for credit...sheesh!

Its no less yours than anyone elses. Its value is underpinned by your promise to produce goods and services. NOTHING else. Nobody actually "lends" you this money. It doesnt come from anyone elses pocket, it comes from substracting a tiny bit of wealth off of every other dollar in circulation.

[wyly]

I never said there wouldnt be repercussions. Those are inevitable now because they they overspent. They SHOULD lose their credit. If they stay in that system it will own them until the end of time.

If your debt problems are so big that your creditors are going to own you for life even you pay back as much as you can, then theres a good chance bankruptcy will help you. They would get out from underneath all that debt and interest, and extract themselves from a system that is designed to keep them in perpetual debt for someone elses profit.

After that they have to rebuild their currency based on the real value of goods and services in their marketplace.

Well... that sounds like a guess on your part. But at the end of the day the sustainable part of their economy is based on the demand for products and services, and the ability of people to produce them. Even if they ditched the entire economic monetary regime and made trasactions in using small dried up berries that would STILL be what underpinned the economy.

I know a friend who manages a moneymart. Their whole business model is to try and get people into loop where they need a payday loan a few days before each check. The end resulting being you keep paying interest forever. I asked her what someone should do if they are stuck in that loop (which many people get stuck in for years). She said unequivocally that you should GET YOURSELF OUT OF THE SYSTEM, and default. Otherwise youre a prisoner of that debt forever.

The international monetary system operates under the same principle, except that it doesnt honestly fund its loans like Money Mart does... it creates money on the fly by expanding the money supply.

People seem to have a hard time realizing that you cant fix a debt problem by borrowing more money.

And this whole threat of doom and gloom by the bankers has been used since medieval times. They want you to believe that if they werent supplying the "money", that suddenly the breadmaker would stop making bread! The butcher would stop selling meat! And the seamstress would stop making clothes.

Everybody would all just up and die

The fact is that if you look at how the system works, and the fact that none of the so called "money" lent by the international banking system even exists as anything besides monetary expansion, which we pay usury on, one thing becomes pretty clear... The longer the system runs the more that will be owed to the banks and eventually they will have ALL the money and after forclosure proceedings all the real property as well.

I posted some examples in another thread recently that illustrate in very simple terms where this system will lead us if its allowed to continue. Its mathematically impossible for it to produce anything but a perpetual debt spiral until it collapses.

from my understanding the problem is all their own doing, mostly caused by not paying their taxes...and now they've been forgiven 50% of their debt, that's as good a deal as they'll ever get...this isn't like a personal bankuptcy where you get a new job and start again in a healthy economy, there will be no new job, no pension plan, no nothing...they'll be completely screwed and will take a number of countries down with them...

[dre]

As much as I don't like bailouts, the greeks should take this one. They don't have the same advantages argentina has, and the bailout at least has some restrictions. Make no mistake, the greeks are going to be wandering in the desert for quite some time.

All the bailout do will ensure a way bigger crisis down the road.

From the article...

The new debt deal aims to seek 50 per cent losses for private holders of Greek bonds and provide the troubled euro zone member with €100-billion ($140-billion U.S.) in additional rescue loans.

First of all Id love to know who the "private holders" of that debt are and what REAL PROPERTY they surrendered to aquire that debt.

Second of all the only thing that this deal does is attempt to fix credit management problem by issuing a whole shitload of more credit. So youve maxed out your credit card so bad that you cant even pay the interest on the debt each month, and here comes the credit card company. Theyre gonna solve all your problems by doing WHAT???? Giving you another credit card - a special RESCUE credit card.

[blueblood]

I never said there wouldnt be repercussions. Those are inevitable now because they they overspent. They SHOULD lose their credit. If they stay in that system it will own them until the end of time.

If your debt problems are so big that your creditors are going to own you for life even you pay back as much as you can, then theres a good chance bankruptcy will help you. They would get out from underneath all that debt and interest, and extract themselves from a system that is designed to keep them in perpetual debt for someone elses profit.

After that they have to rebuild their currency based on the real value of goods and services in their marketplace.

Well... that sounds like a guess on your part. But at the end of the day the sustainable part of their economy is based on the demand for products and services, and the ability of people to produce them. Even if they ditched the entire economic monetary regime and made trasactions in using small dried up berries that would STILL be what underpinned the economy.

I know a friend who manages a moneymart. Their whole business model is to try and get people into loop where they need a payday loan a few days before each check. The end resulting being you keep paying interest forever. I asked her what someone should do if they are stuck in that loop (which many people get stuck in for years). She said unequivocally that you should GET YOURSELF OUT OF THE SYSTEM, and default. Otherwise youre a prisoner of that debt forever.

The international monetary system operates under the same principle, except that it doesnt honestly fund its loans like Money Mart does... it creates money on the fly by expanding the money supply.

People seem to have a hard time realizing that you cant fix a debt problem by borrowing more money.

And this whole threat of doom and gloom by the bankers has been used since medieval times. They want you to believe that if they werent supplying the "money", that suddenly the breadmaker would stop making bread! The butcher would stop selling meat! And the seamstress would stop making clothes.

Everybody would all just up and die

The fact is that if you look at how the system works, and the fact that none of the so called "money" lent by the international banking system even exists as anything besides monetary expansion, which we pay usury on, one thing becomes pretty clear... The longer the system runs the more that will be owed to the banks and eventually they will have ALL the money and after forclosure proceedings all the real property as well.

I posted some examples in another thread recently that illustrate in very simple terms where this system will lead us if its allowed to continue. Its mathematically impossible for it to produce anything but a perpetual debt spiral until it collapses.

You do have to realize that your "usury" has been what got western civilization out of the dark ages. The system when used responsibly creates a lot of wealth and advances society. It's when the system is treated like a money tree is where there is problems. I take out loans and pay them back with interest, and I'm not in debt, why can't other people?

The Greek situation is like somebody renegotiating their credit cards. A credit card company will take a bit of a loss and will write off the debt if it gets a payment guaranteed rather than hope that it will receive a payment the traditional way. Remember, getting some money is better than none, that's why the bond holders were allowing to write off 50%.

[blueblood]

All the bailout do will ensure a way bigger crisis down the road.

From the article...

First of all Id love to know who the "private holders" of that debt are and what REAL PROPERTY they surrendered to aquire that debt.

Second of all the only thing that this deal does is attempt to fix credit management problem by issuing a whole shitload of more credit. So youve maxed out your credit card so bad that you cant even pay the interest on the debt each month, and here comes the credit card company. Theyre gonna solve all your problems by doing WHAT???? Giving you another credit card - a special RESCUE credit card.

Except that rescue credit card has the terms of only for paying off debt and you only get the card if you slash and burn your gov't spending. Seems like a good deal to me, oh and we get to garnish your wages to boot.

[dre]

from my understanding the problem is all their own doing, mostly caused by not paying their taxes...and now they've been forgiven 50% of their debt, that's as good a deal as they'll ever get...this isn't like a personal bankuptcy where you get a new job and start again in a healthy economy, there will be no new job, no pension plan, no nothing...they'll be completely screwed and will take a number of countries down with them...

Well... its now or later. Like I said, this is where we are all headed. You have to understand that there simply isnt enough dollars in the global money supply to pay back all this debt. Some countries may be able to stay ahead of it and at least make all the interest payments but most wont, and eventually everyone will default. At some point we are going to have to design a functional monetary system, and the transition is going to hurt either way. Might as well take the hit and do it now, instead of fixing borrowing problems with more borrowing, and credit problems with more credit.

[olp1fan]

Papandreau sp just averted an attemped coup by firing the top heads of the

military

[dre]

You do have to realize that your "usury" has been what got western civilization out of the dark ages. The system when used responsibly creates a lot of wealth and advances society. It's when the system is treated like a money tree is where there is problems. I take out loans and pay them back with interest, and I'm not in debt, why can't other people?

The Greek situation is like somebody renegotiating their credit cards. A credit card company will take a bit of a loss and will write off the debt if it gets a payment guaranteed rather than hope that it will receive a payment the traditional way. Remember, getting some money is better than none, that's why the bond holders were allowing to write off 50%.

You do have to realize that your "usury" has been what got western civilization out of the dark ages.

No, credit expansion is what did that. And since that credit expansion is backed by the providers of goods and the services in the economy and not any real property inside the banks "vault" the usury we are charged is unwarranted. Its like me collecting interest for loaning somebody elses stuff.

The problem is that if they dont extricate themselves from this system then it will literally own them forever. If extricate themselves from the system, they are debt free but will have no more credit, and that will force them to build an economy that doesnt rely on constant credit. Spending will have to be based on revenue.

And THAT is why these international bankers are so desperate for Greece to tow the line, and willing to cut a deal in order to keep Greece in the system. If Greece left, and after a few years of turmoil was able to establish a sustainable economy based on a real value currency system, then that would put into jeopardy the ability of international bankers to lord over our economies and extract gigantic sums of money for doing very little of value.

Edited November 2, 2011 by dre

[olp1fan]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/business/blog/2011/nov/01/european-debt-crisis-greece-referendum?cat=business&type=article

6.15pm: Now this really is something. The top officials in the Greek military have been replaced today.

In what Athens News is calling "a surprise move", defence minister Panos Beglitis has proposed changing the chief of the Greek National Defence General Staff, the chief of the Greek Army General Staff, the chief of the Greek Air Force, and (in a clean sweep) the chief of the Greek Air Force.

EU Observer reported earlier today that Beglitis was rumoured to be planning to replace the existing chiefs with "his own people".

reports now state they were indeed changed

Edited November 2, 2011 by olp1fan

[bush_cheney2004]

.... then that would put into jeopardy the ability of international bankers to lord over our economies and extract gigantic sums of money for doing very little of value.

No it wouldn't..it would just be another country going into default. Wouldn't be the first time. "International bankers" aren't suppose to do anything but provide a mechanism for the flow of capital at a price. That is the value provided. What do you expect them to do, actually drive the Caterpillar D-9's in Bolivia?