I would like to see a protest against .....

[dre]

You give validity to my remarks/thoughts/observations

Not really... Like I said your whole pretense here is a huge logical fallacy that ignores the history of protest movements.

There is aboslutely nothing puzzling about this at all. Its perfectly normal and expected that movements like this have a relatively narrow focus. And like I said, theres already another fairly large movement thats protesting the welfare state, and its runaway costs and abuses.

Shakes head...

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Someone in this thread is a professional internet troll.

• State opinion
  
• Question dissenters opinion
  
• If dissenters discuss a scientific study, make sure to question the validity of the study rather than the implications of the study or ignore the study entirely.
  
• Ignore any information that reduces the validity of his/her own opinion, repeat.
  

That is how it goes. EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.

You know who you are

Edited October 22, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Guest American Woman]

It's ok... you can feel free to continue to ignore the fact that only one-tenth of one percent of all social assistance cases are fraudulent.

What does one report from Ontario have to do with the whole picture? I've posted several links that you've ignored, from more than one source regarding more than one state - as have others.

Another interesting piece of the report you can feel free to ignore, AMWO:

What's to ignore? What's your point The fact that there's a hotline to report fraud is pretty much evidence that it's a problem. There are laws against blue collar crime, too, but that's not stopping people from protesting; they don't have the faith in the government to enforce the law in that regard.

But again, I'm also speaking of those who abuse the system and take advantage of it because they feel life owes them a living. How many times do I have to repeat that? There is no law against that. People can have a bajillion kids and get more and more money as their government assisted rent gets lower and lower. People work for cash or claim to have disabilities that don't prevent them from doing whatever they like in their personal lives. There are all kinds of ways people cost taxpayers money by their 'life owes me a living' attitude. They take, take, take and give nothing.

You also need to be more clear about what you're talking about. You've now moved from talking about fraud to saying "fraud and abuse".

I mentioned abuse in my very first post in this thread and then even went back to edit to include it in the title shortly thereafter. I was quite clear that I'm speaking of fraud/abuse/using the system rather than taking responsiblity; ie: the 'life owes me a living' crowd. And I see evidence of it every day. Most people I talk to do.

You're moving the goalposts.

The goalposts are firmly in place.

The problem with identifying "abuse" is that people are going to make unintentional mistakes when filing for social assistance. According to the report, "Mr. Justice Weagant noted, one could readily anticipate very large numbers of inadvertent rule breaches" and MPP Deb Matthews elaborates:

I'm clearly not referring to people who make mistakes.

So, you need to be clear what you're talking about here.

I've clearly stated what I'm talking about more than once. If you're unaware of the abuse that goes on, again, it supports my point that people go after the rich, while the 'life owes me a living' crowd costs the system plenty.

I've seen it over and over in this thread. "it's not as bad," "they wear designer clothes LOL" - as if people with money don't have a right to protest abuse, "it hardly ever happens," etc. as people gloss over it and make jokes about it, all but dismissing it.

Quite frankly, it's what makes a lot of people vote conservative/Republican. They see people taking advantage of the programs that are supposed to be for those who actually need it, they see what it's costing them as a taxpayer, and they say "enough!"

So I would like to see those who are upset with the rich show concern over the other end - but I'm sure seeing very little of it in this thread. Quite the opposite. As I said, it confirms my initial observations/points.

Edited October 23, 2011 by American Woman

[msj]

Someone in this thread is a professional internet troll.

• State opinion
  
• Question dissenters opinion
  
• If dissenters discuss a scientific study, make sure to question the validity of the study rather than the implications of the study or ignore the study entirely.
  
• Ignore any information that reduces the validity of his/her own opinion, repeat.
  

That is how it goes. EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.

You know who you are

I think I agree.

I was wondering if AW is some kind of new, more sophisticated, troll. Maybe internet trolls are evolving?

I have always wondered if she is some kind of alter ego, or split personality, to BC_2004 and/or Oleg, too.

But, whatever, we're here for kicks.

[cybercoma]

What does one report from Ontario have to do with the whole picture? I've posted several links that you've ignored, from more than one source regarding more than one state - as have others.

This is the problem with your entire thread. Social Assistance, in Canada, is a provincial jurisdiction. The programs vary from province-to-province. Nevertheless, the fact that the numbers for Toronto mirror those of the entire province of Ontario (as stated in the report), seems to suggest that the number are more than likely similar in the rest of the provinces as well.

As far as your American studies, I couldn't possibly care less about them. This is a Canadian politics forum.

What's to ignore? What's your point The fact that there's a hotline to report fraud is pretty much evidence that it's a problem.

This is the perfect example of exactly what is wrong with talking about anything with you. This statement of yours is completely illogical and you likely have no idea why, nor would you even admit it if I explained it to you.

But again, I'm also speaking of those who abuse the system and take advantage of it because they feel life owes them a living. How many times do I have to repeat that? There is no law against that. People can have a bajillion kids and get more and more money as their government assisted rent gets lower and lower. People work for cash or claim to have disabilities that don't prevent them from doing whatever they like in their personal lives. There are all kinds of ways people cost taxpayers money by their 'life owes me a living' attitude. They take, take, take and give nothing.

Yet all of those people defrauding the system amount to one-tenth of a percent of all the welfare cases in the largest province in the country.

I mentioned abuse in my very first post in this thread and then even went back to edit to include it in the title shortly thereafter. I was quite clear that I'm speaking of fraud/abuse/using the system rather than taking responsiblity; ie: the 'life owes me a living' crowd. And I see evidence of it every day. Most people I talk to do.

You seem to have a very difficult time connecting the dots. "Most people" in Ontario reported the people they suspected of welfare fraud to the hotline I mentioned. Of all the allegations of fraud, only 1% were actually found fraudulent. That's only counting the people that were on welfare and reported. I don't have the study at my disposal, but I can find it if you would like to ignore it too, but something like 80-90% of the reports were against people that weren't even on welfare. That was part of the reason they stopped policing welfare in this way.

In short, your and most people's obvservations are almost certainly wrong.

I'm clearly not referring to people who make mistakes.

Then you're talking about 0.1% of all welfare cases.

I've seen it over and over in this thread. "it's not as bad," "they wear designer clothes LOL" - as if people with money don't have a right to protest abuse, "it hardly ever happens," etc. as people gloss over it and make jokes about it, all but dismissing it.

People with money have every right to protest. You have every right to bring up welfare fraud. I'm very much against welfare fraud myself.

What makes you look like an idiot is when you're shown the information on welfare fraud that indicates it's not nearly as widespread as you claim, but you still try to sensationalize it as though it's crippling the entire economy.

Quite frankly, it's what makes a lot of people vote conservative/Republican. They see people taking advantage of the programs that are supposed to be for those who actually need it, they see what it's costing them as a taxpayer, and they say "enough!"

Except they don't actually see people taking advantage of the programs. They assume people are taking advantage of programs, ignore the research and make decisions based on knee-jerk reactions and ideology.

So I would like to see those who are upset with the rich show concern over the other end - but I'm sure seeing very little of it in this thread. Quite the opposite. As I said, it confirms my initial observations/points.

No one has suggested that we shouldn't be concerned with welfare fraud. What I'm saying in this thread is that it's heavily policed and only amounts to a small fraction of all the cases of people on welfare. In other words, it's already taken care of, your absolutely incorrect assumptions aside.

[Guest American Woman]

As far as your American studies, I couldn't possibly care less about them. This is a Canadian politics forum.

We're actually discussing this in the Canadian/American relations forum, same as with the occupy Wall street threads. Wall Street is also in America, and you seem care about that, you seem to be interested in that end of abuse of the system. But thanks for showing me where you're coming from. This will be the extent of my response in light of your admission that "you couldn't care less" about abuse in America when it's on the other end of the spectrum.

This is the perfect example of exactly what is wrong with talking about anything with you.

What's "wrong" with "talking about anything with [me]" is that I'm not agreeing with you/saying what you want to hear.

Have a good night. I have nothing more to say in response.

[bush_cheney2004]

...As far as your American studies, I couldn't possibly care less about them. This is a Canadian politics forum.

Oh, if only that were true. Few threads in this forum are missing direct or indirect references to...America. LOL!

[cybercoma]

Have a good night. I have nothing more to say in response.

You haven't had anything to say since the beginning when you made up this mythical hypocrisy. You obviously don't understand how abuses on Wall Street actually affect the entire world since the markets are so heavily intertwined. No only that, but the entire point of the Occupy protests is that these bankers and financial elite have too much sway over the politicians in the United States, who in case you haven't noticed, make policies that interfere with countries all over the world. Welfare on the other hand goes jurisdiction by jurisdiction and in the case of the largest jurisdiction in Canada is so small that it has absolutely no effect on the markets. Welfare recipients don't have any control over the policies of either nation, nor do they have any effect on the markets of foreign countries. You're trying to draw an absurd parallel and you have nothing to back it up.

[Topaz]

The only thing I'll add is, it would be interesting to see were more money is wasted, welfare fraud or in Ottawa or Washington DC.

[Guest American Woman]

Welfare recipients don't have any control over the policies of either nation, nor do they have any effect on the markets of foreign countries.

Welfare costs are a big part of our budget, which affects our economy, which I'm told affects the whole world. This is no less of a concern for the rest of the world than other American politics that everyone outside the U.S. concerns themselves with, offering all kinds of opinions and criticism.

Furthermore, OWS has no single theme, but tax issues are part of it. "Tax the rich." If that is a concern, then so should a drain on the budget from the other end. You may not agree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong - and it most definitely does not speak of a "problem on [my] part" because I refuse to agree with you.

You're trying to draw an absurd parallel and you have nothing to back it up.

I have reality to back it up, and I've posted links to support the claim that welfare abuse costs the government big time and costs jobs. As a taxpayer, that is a concern to me. Abuse occurs on both ends of the spectrum, it's not just the rich - yet that's all some seem to be concerned with. In other words, again, if "tax the rich" is a concern, abuse of tax money on the other end should be too.

That is my point. The responses in this thread confirm the lack of concern by those who cry out against the rich who abuse the system - as the several sources I've linked to confirm that it is a problem.

[bush_cheney2004]

....That is my point. The responses in this thread confirm the lack of concern by those who cry out against the rich who abuse the system - as the several sources I've linked to confirm that it is a problem.

It's a huge problem and garnered far more political attention in the 1990's compared to getting a hate on for "rich people" today. Welfare reform became a litmus test for candidates and President Clinton shocked his base by signing welfare reform with lifetime limits into law. The fact is that welfare fraud and abuse will anger a working man/woman far more than fat cats enjoying a nice Cuban cigar. It's not hard to understand why.

[jacee]

What does one report from Ontario have to do with the whole picture? I've posted several links that you've ignored, from more than one source regarding more than one state - as have others.

What's to ignore? What's your point The fact that there's a hotline to report fraud is pretty much evidence that it's a problem.

Well no, it's proof that some conservatives THOUGHT it was a problem and the then premier Mike harris agreed. However, 9 out of 10 of the people reported WERE NOT EVEN ON WELFARE. That says a lot about the validity of people's perceptions of welfare fraud - ie, that they're not very accurate.

There are laws against blue collar crime, too, but that's not stopping people from protesting; they don't have the faith in the government to enforce the law in that regard.

But again, I'm also speaking of those who abuse the system and take advantage of it because they feel life owes them a living. How many times do I have to repeat that? There is no law against that. People can have a bajillion kids and get more and more money as their government assisted rent gets lower and lower. People work for cash or claim to have disabilities that don't prevent them from doing whatever they like in their personal lives. There are all kinds of ways people cost taxpayers money by their 'life owes me a living' attitude. They take, take, take and give nothing.

I'll have to see your evidence. So far I've seen none but your perceptions (which may not be accurate) and opinions. Do you actually know people like that? Are you sure they're on welfare? I know people who are only able to work sporadically and could collect welfare and just take their earnings off, so their rent/food would be covered in months where there is no work, but they refuse to. People go through job search and retraining, addictions rehab, etc. There's always both sides, and maybe a balance.

I mentioned abuse in my very first post in this thread and then even went back to edit to include it in the title shortly thereafter. I was quite clear that I'm speaking of fraud/abuse/using the system rather than taking responsiblity; ie: the 'life owes me a living' crowd. And I see evidence of it every day. Most people I talk to do.

What evidence? Are you sure they're on welfare?

The goalposts are firmly in place.

I'm clearly not referring to people who make mistakes.

Ive clearly stated what I'm talking about more than once. If you're unaware of the abuse that goes on, again, it supports my point that people go after the rich, while the 'life owes me a living' crowd costs the system plenty.

I've seen it over and over in this thread. "it's not as bad," "they wear designer clothes LOL" - as if people with money don't have a right to protest abuse, "it hardly ever happens," etc. as people gloss over it and make jokes about it, all but dismissing it.

Quite frankly, it's what makes a lot of people vote conservative/Republican. They see people taking advantage of the programs that are supposed to be for those who actually need it, they see what it's costing them as a taxpayer, and they say "enough!"

In Ontario I'd said max $50k/mo, $600k/yr, about 8cents per year from each taxpayer.

So I would like to see those who are upset with the rich show concern over the other end - but I'm sure seeing very little of it in this thread. Quite the opposite. As I said, it confirms my initial observations/points.

I'm concerned, but in our jurisdiction it's under control. Perhaps not so in yours, so you'll have to deal with it there.

Edited October 23, 2011 by jacee

[Guest American Woman]

I'll have to see your evidence. So far I've seen none but your perceptions (which may not be accurate) and opinions.

Trust me. The links I provided, the sources I provided, are not my perceptions and opinions. Try reading them. If you choose not to, fine. But if so far you haven't seen seen them, that's your problem, not mine, and providing more is not likely to open your eyes any more than they are now. Again. I've provided several sources. That you've seen nothing but "[my] perceptions ... and opinions" proves how blind some people choose to be to abuse at the other end. Again, it confirms by perception.

I'm concerned, but in our jurisdiction it's under control. Perhaps not so in yours, so you'll have to deal with it there.

If only we could see this attitude applied to all politics in the the U.S. - 'I believe it's under control in Ontario, so we don't care what's going on in the U.S.' But I don't see that happening, so again, you confirm my perception.

[Guest American Woman]

It's a huge problem and garnered far more political attention in the 1990's compared to getting a hate on for "rich people" today. Welfare reform became a litmus test for candidates and President Clinton shocked his base by signing welfare reform with lifetime limits into law. The fact is that welfare fraud and abuse will anger a working man/woman far more than fat cats enjoying a nice Cuban cigar. It's not hard to understand why.

It is a huge problem. More:

Sen. Mike Carrell, R-Lakewood, said he used to believe the vast majority of EBT cards are used correctly, for basic needs like food, clothing, shelter, utilities and transportation. But in the wake of news reports that showed cards have been used at casinos, strip clubs and smoke shops, Carrell said, “I no longer believe that.”

The EBT cards are sometimes traded for drugs, he said, or sold on Craigslist by people trying to trade a larger food value for quick cash. Even though the cards require using a personal identification number, the owner can turn over the PIN with the card. After selling the card or trading it for drugs, the owner can then claim it was lost or stolen and get a new one.

The department replaces some 37,000 cards a year reported lost or stolen, and some of those are being fraudulently traded or sold, Carrell said.

link

And that's just one state out of 50. The lack of concern by the 'get the rich' crowd here is one of the reasons it's so prevalent; but then, I'd wager that more than a few of the protesters/support OWS crowd falls right into that category.

I'm shaking my head over the 'it's a concern of the U.S. so it has nothing to do with us - you deal with it' responses I'm getting. What a joke! This is the one thing that they choose not to have an opinion on, an attitude about, any criticism of. This drain on our economy doesn't concern them. But if we were to hear about one rich guy abusing the system, they'd be all over it.

Bottom line. Welfare fraud and welfare programs and the abuse by the shameless crowd that feels it's their due is a big reason why a lot of people vote Republican. It's as you said, "welfare fraud and abuse will anger a working man/woman ..." and it does. Big time.

But of course even as some Canadians concern themselves big time with our elections and are puzzled over the outcomes, as they point out that our economy greatly affects them, this is an issue that doesn't concern them at all - which completely confirms my perceptions, and allows those abusing the system to do so without criticism or contempt from those vivifying anyone who is uber rich/wears designer labels.

Let's be pen pals with anyone who is working for a large corporation, let's harass them, as Joe and Jane Abuse-Welfare get no attention. There is total faith in the government to deal with that problem. "Faith in the government." From the OWS crowd. It would be laughable if it weren't such a problem.

Edited October 23, 2011 by American Woman

[cybercoma]

It is a huge problem. More:

Sen. Mike Carrell, R-Lakewood, said he used to believe the vast majority of EBT cards are used correctly, for basic needs like food, clothing, shelter, utilities and transportation. But in the wake of news reports that showed cards have been used at casinos, strip clubs and smoke shops, Carrell said, “I no longer believe that.”

The EBT cards are sometimes traded for drugs, he said, or sold on Craigslist by people trying to trade a larger food value for quick cash. Even though the cards require using a personal identification number, the owner can turn over the PIN with the card. After selling the card or trading it for drugs, the owner can then claim it was lost or stolen and get a new one.

The department replaces some 37,000 cards a year reported lost or stolen, and some of those are being fraudulently traded or sold, Carrell said.

link

And that's just one state out of 50. The lack of concern by the 'get the rich' crowd here is one of the reasons it's so prevalent; but then, I'd wager that more than a few of the protesters/support OWS crowd falls right into that category.

I'm shaking my head over the 'it's a concern of the U.S. so it has nothing to do with us - you deal with it' responses I'm getting. What a joke! This is the one thing that they choose not to have an opinion on, an attitude about, any criticism of. This drain on our economy doesn't concern them. But if we were to hear about one rich guy abusing the system, they'd be all over it.

Bottom line. Welfare fraud and welfare programs and the abuse by the shameless crowd that feels it's their due is a big reason why a lot of people vote Republican. It's as you said, "welfare fraud and abuse will anger a working man/woman ..." and it does. Big time.

But of course even as some Canadians concern themselves big time with our elections and are puzzled over the outcomes, as they point out that our economy greatly affects them, this is an issue that doesn't concern them at all - which completely confirms my perceptions, and allows those abusing the system to do so without criticism or contempt from those vivifying anyone who is uber rich/wears designer labels.

Let's be pen pals with anyone who is working for a large corporation, let's harass them, as Joe and Jane Abuse-Welfare get no attention. There is total faith in the government to deal with that problem. "Faith in the government." From the OWS crowd. It would be laughable if it weren't such a problem.

Do you even understand that your link does nothing to support the claim that these abuses occur? There is no research into the abuse in that article. It's nothing more than a politician repeating the claim. Politicians do this thing called pandering. There's a giant misconception about the level of abuse, as I've shown with peer-reviewed research into the abuse itself, so this politician is going to play on that fear and ignorance. Get back to us when you actually have a study into welfare abuse, rather than a newspaper clipping of a politician politicking.

[Guest American Woman]

Do you even understand that your link does nothing to support the claim that these abuses occur?

Right. He's making it up. Those abuses don't really occur.

There is no research into the abuse in that article.

The "research" is the findings that he refers to.

It's nothing more than a politician repeating the claim.

Right. Because when politicians make claims, they're based on nothing. But a politician making a claim about tax loopholes, that we know is the truth.

There's a giant misconception about the level of abuse, as I've shown with peer-reviewed research into the abuse itself

You've shown nothing of the sort.

Get back to us when you actually have a study into welfare abuse, rather than a newspaper clipping of a politician politicking.

Get back to me when you can show something other than one report from Ontario. Get back to me when you can open your eyes and see what goes on around you. Again, I'm not referring to simple fraud - although that's prevalent enough to cost the tax payers, the working people, plenty.

If you don't care, that's your choice, andt it does support my perception, my observations. But repeatedly throwing back one report about Ontario is nothing while you seem to think it's the beginning and the end.

Next time Canadians are speaking of, criticizing the U.S., please, by all means, come back with one report from Ontario - and tell them there's no need to be concerned, critical, or anything else. Thank you.

[cybercoma]

Are you Betsy's political account? It's pretty tiresome to show you all of this evidence for you to turn around and lie saying I didn't. Maybe we can continue this discussion when you've learned to have even the smallest bit of intellectual honesty.

[GostHacked]

Someone in this thread is a professional internet troll.

• State opinion
  
• Question dissenters opinion
  
• If dissenters discuss a scientific study, make sure to question the validity of the study rather than the implications of the study or ignore the study entirely.
  
• Ignore any information that reduces the validity of his/her own opinion, repeat.
  

That is how it goes. EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.

You know who you are

I have a feeling there are a few professional internet trolls on this board. Possibly even paid to do such a thing.

[Guest American Woman]

Are you Betsy's political account?

Why would you bring someone else into a response to me? You think that's honest and intelligent, to accuse me of being someone you obviously don't approve of? Seems rather juvenile and ignorant to me.

It's pretty tiresome to show you all of this evidence for you to turn around and lie saying I didn't.

Wow. It's as if you know exactly how I feel.

Maybe we can continue this discussion when you've learned to have even the smallest bit of intellectual honesty.

See above - as you take a good hard look in the mirror. As for continuing to go 'round and 'round with you on this? Not going to happen. You've helped confirm my beliefs - 'nuff said.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Next time Canadians are speaking of, criticizing the U.S., please, by all means, come back with one report from Ontario - and tell them there's no need to be concerned, critical, or anything else. Thank you.

It's just more of the same anti-American neurosis we see in many other threads from some members. If a large dose of smug superiority won't do, then surely the lack of confirming data available to Canadians is proof enough that the provinces don't have such problems as in the states. But then we get American citations for actual problems in Canada, like the paranoia over Big Brother tracking their every move. You can't make this stuff up.

Edited October 23, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[BubberMiley]

It's just more of the same anti-American neurosis we see in many other threads from some members.

I wouldn't call her anti-American. She just has a bit of a complex, is all. Same with you.

[bush_cheney2004]

I wouldn't call her anti-American. She just has a bit of a complex, is all. Same with you.

This coming from a member who actually stated he can't stand his alleged American citizenship. Talk about a complex...sheesh!

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I have a feeling there are a few professional internet trolls on this board. Possibly even paid to do such a thing.

I don't doubt it.

I knew a business owner of baby/child store. He used to make account names up and go on to new mother sites and promote his own business while talking about how he had bad service at the others. Of course, he stayed long enough on the boards so that people would think of him as a community member.

I read a lot of poorly written english "reviews" promoting certain products on websites and slandering others. "This was junk garbage. By [product] instead because has:

1. ". Those are my favourite. At $10/hour you could easily pay someone to stay on the internet all day and spread misinformation... there are a lot of people without jobs.

Edited October 23, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[jacee]

I have a feeling there are a few professional internet trolls on this board. Possibly even paid to do such a thing.

Spies and infiltrators and instigators, yup.

Went to a protest once, a few. Months before the G20,US sent a BIG-TIME (I mean the BIGGEST ... JCoS ... Obama knows EXACTLY which individual I mean) military type. ('attache'). Our cops wanted ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with him. (Even ratted him out TO US.) His presence, his HUGE BLACK 'unmarked' vehicle, his demeanour, his interrogations, his attitudes were simply FOREIGN TO US.

Idiot that he was, he zeroed in on a bunch of rainbow-haired kids from a street-involved youth program ... protesters who told him they had "no leader".

To him that meant they might be (scary) ANARCHISTS, now defined by law as TERRORISTS by conservatives on both sides of the border.

Afterall, they were rainbow-haired, tatooed, pierced, and silently, courageously defiant to police requests to vacate their chosen free speech location. After we sorted out their complaint (they'd been subject to hate speech by those we were protesting) and police were properly censured for not intervening on their behalf (WE pay their salaries ... They work FOR us!), all was well, and they joined the rest of us for "The most peaceful and organized protests I've ever seen! (Police spokesperson to media)

... Except for big bad bald Rosy with his big bad bald black car, who looked like he'd just swallowed a lump of sht!! Truly hilarious.

You can tell our 'cops' on here easily: Long as they can figure out you're not violent, they don't really care about your opinions. The infiltrators from the south, however, they think it's their duty (to God? Wall Street?) to change your opinion. No respect for freedom of speech (except their own) or choice.

Canada will always be Canada, and rich or poor, we're all just 'a little' oppositional to US pressure and control, and that seems to frustrate them into apopleptic fits of insults.

LISTEN WHAT I SAY, AMWO: This is a Canadian board for discussion of Canadian issues. Some US issues affect us, some don't, and we're not much interested in your problems that aren't our problems.

We have one simple system of welfare (per province, but most operate similarly). It's much cheaper to administer and easier to police than your multiple types of benefits with multiple bureaucracies for means-testing and multiple opportunities for fraud. If you have a problem, deal with it but stop trying to instigate trouble among Canadians.

While on the topic of multiple EXPENSIVE bureaucracies, let's talk about health care coverage, costs and fraud: US health care for those who are even covered, costs 20% more per capita than. Canadian universal coverage and care. The cost overruns are not the care itself, which costs the same, but administrative costs: The US 'system' involves many private companies all with their own administrative staff, little communication between them, many different forms and rules and procedures that drive customers and doctors nuts trying to negotiate and costs them much staff time, all of which adds to the bill.

Now, WHY is it that US benefit programs are so cumbersome, varied, expensive, more easily defrauded and less efficient and effective than Canadian benefit systems? I have a theory about that. I think the conservative lobby in the US is squarely at fault for the increased fraud and cost, because they operate with an ill-informed individual 'charity' mindset but have little actual knowledge of poverty, ill health, illiteracy, disability, and the myriad of other challenges facing those less fortunate.

An example from Ontario. Some may remember the cutbacks to everything by Mike Harris. One of the things cut back/off was supposed to be the support for parents/caregivers of severely/profoundly handicapped dependent children (who may be adults, but infirm. They constitute a very small percentage of the population, way less than half a percent, but consume a lot of resources. During legislative debate, one opposition MP read a letter from a parent of a profoundly handicapped adult child, outlining the medical procedures, equipment, such as lifts for bath and bed, special transportation, and 24 hour care required. Ernie Eves was Premier by then, stuck with trying to justify Harris' 'laws' that cut off such support. Ernie wasn't a bad man like Harris, just duped in the same way many conservatives dupe themselves . Ernie's heartfelt response in the legislature was "Of course where there are REALLY UNIQUE and special cases like that, we can work out an exception for them".

WELL! ... His office, and all MPP offices were quickly was INUNDATED with requests for "exceptions" for their severely/profoundly. handicapped dependents: WHY? Because half a percent may seem small, like something easily dismissed and defunded, but it's still 6000 people, about 55 such cases in EVERY Ontario riding, and each handicapped person has many family members, family friends, support programs and staff and doctors and nurses ... etc etc, advocating on their behalf and on behalf of the parents who struggle with the extreme physical, emotional and financials costs of caring for them ...

And that's A LOT of people ringing phones and doorbells of MPP's.

My point about the conservative mindset is this: They like to live in a fantasy mindworld where everybody starts out with equal opportunity and everyone's success and misfortunes are their own doing, and thus the rest of the population bears NO COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY to help them. If someone's circumstances are especially DESERVING, they'll help them out of a sense of charity, largesse, virtuosity ... but don't let anyone tell them who's DESERVING and not, and don't take their money (via taxes) and let someone else decide who DESERVES their 'charity', because THEY KNOW IT'S JUST A COMMIE/LEFTY PLOT TO STEAL THEIR MONEY AND ALL THOSE SO-CALLED 'LESS FORTUNATE' ARE JUST CON ARTISTS AND FRAUDSTERS!!

Have I got it right? I think so.

Conservatives on both sides of the border have a hugely inflated sense of their own superiority which leads to a paranoid sense that everyone else is out to steal from them what is 'theirs', a lack of human faith and regard for all other human beings, who are surely not as virtuous or 'deserving' as themselves. It's a sickness we have under better control than the US, by virtue of better care, more efficeent and effective services.

So ... deal with your own problems down south, but don't paint us with your brush, AMWO.

Long winded, I know, but I'm fed up with US'n provocateurs and their 'divide and conquer the stupid Canadians' mentality on here. You have nothing to teach us. LISTEN AND LEARN for a change. And keep your big bad bald rosy's on your own side of the border.

If conservative US'ns weren't so disgusting all around the world, US'ns wouldn't have to be so paranoid.

I have BC on ignore, and now you too, AMWO. You have nothing to say that's of the least interest to me and you are both, imo, just ignorant provocateurs with a completely undeserved and inflated sense of your own superiority, couched in paranoia and ignorance. Stew in it.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Long winded, I know, but I'm fed up with US'n provocateurs and their 'divide and conquer the stupid Canadians' mentality on here. You have nothing to teach us. LISTEN AND LEARN for a change. And keep your big bad bald rosy's on your own side of the border.

Yes...very long winded vitriol...while in contrast....most Americans don't know what you do in Canada, don't care what you do in Canada, and don't care that they don't know what you do in Canada. They don't obsess over Canadian politics or media, don't give a rat's ass who you elect to Parliament or PMO, and are happy to just count the profits from all the American subsidiaries that Canada depends on.

Americans do not stay up late on Canada's election night to see who won a majority or minority in Parliament, and I'll bet the Queen herself doesn't either.

Edited October 23, 2011 by bush_cheney2004