Dismantling of the Canadian Wheat Board.

[cybercoma]

Interesting. Except for the short-term gain from selling lower and the long-term losses when their crops fail. Meanwhile, the more responsible farmers that sell higher to cover those loses have gone out of business because they couldn't compete in the short-term.

No. I don't think making the wheat board optional is as good as having a consultation process to see what people want and to investigate the strengths and weaknesses of the Wheat Board.

[cybercoma]

It comes to this for me. Harper doesn't give a crap about Canadian sovereignty. It is only being dismantled because the United States is continually complaining about the Wheat Board, claiming that we're subsidizing the wheat industry. If the United States wants the Wheat Board dismantled, instead of bending over the table to their wishes, Harper should be demanding that the United States stop subsidizing their corn. That ought to put an end to the conversation quickly.

[blueblood]

It comes to this for me. Harper doesn't give a crap about Canadian sovereignty. It is only being dismantled because the United States is continually complaining about the Wheat Board, claiming that we're subsidizing the wheat industry. If the United States wants the Wheat Board dismantled, instead of bending over the table to their wishes, Harper should be demanding that the United States stop subsidizing their corn. That ought to put an end to the conversation quickly.

The USA is already in the process of looking at ending direct subsidies to producers, they are that broke. There was consultation with producers about the wheat board. It's been going on ever since Harper became pm.

The wheat board is prone to changes in world price just like the producer. The only farmers that have gone out of business are either retired or incompetent. Harper was also immense pressure from the dismantle the wheat board faction of farmers in western Canada.

The notion that farmers would go broke without the cwb is honestly ridiculous.

[William Ashley]

Anyone else find it rich how advocates for the preservation of the archaic CWB invoke "farmer's rights", while the CWB expressly tramples of the rights of farmers to do with their private property (what they manufacture) as they so wish? I keep seeing this invocation of sixty-some-percent of Canadian farmers being in support or preservation of the CWB, but it wouldn't matter if it was 99.9% - it doesn't give anyone the right to control the manner in which a person or business sells their product(s). Moreover, if the CWB is as universally beneficial to Canadian farmers (and the broader Canadian public) as the socialists from the LPC and NDP claim is the case, then why do farmers need to be coerced through government regulations to join the CWB? In a free market environment, farmers would voluntarily join such a fantastic organization. The hypocrisy and absurdity from the Canadian left continues.

Of course, nobody examines any of the broader economic implications of such a government-preserved monopoly. We can get into that later.

does this mean higher or lower wheat prices?

I saw atta durum at less than 9$ for 8-9kg although food prices seem to still be going up faster than the inflation rate. it is matter less whether I eat crab shrimp salmon or tuna as the prices of high end products are meeting up with low end products

hey atleast is not india..10% food inflation

Edited October 21, 2011 by William Ashley

[cybercoma]

The problem with food prices is food speculation, which I suspect is another reason why they want to dismantle the Wheat Board. Food speculation, while it provides more liquidity, bastardizes the markets in my opinion, and needs to be stopped. The price of food doesn't go up because there's more demand for it as a food, but because speculators are buying up the futures. For people in developed countries that spend less than 20% of their income on food, it sucks, but it's not like people in the developing world who spend 80% of their income on food; they die.

[blueblood]

The problem with food prices is food speculation, which I suspect is another reason why they want to dismantle the Wheat Board. Food speculation, while it provides more liquidity, bastardizes the markets in my opinion, and needs to be stopped. The price of food doesn't go up because there's more demand for it as a food, but because speculators are buying up the futures. For people in developed countries that spend less than 20% of their income on food, it sucks, but it's not like people in the developing world who spend 80% of their income on food; they die.

Ah, but those speculators provide liquidity. when speculators look at trends in the market and either buy or sell, this sends strong signals to producers. Right now prices have cooled off by about 40 dollars per ton for canola since the beginning of august. When speculators sell, they sell hard. By speculators going in and providing liquidity, it also allows producers more funds to invest in their operations in order to increase production. And that includes people in developing countries, their producers are no longer out of business with the massive subsidy/cheap food program that ends up enabling dictators. Also when the price drops as hard as it does, it sends very clear buy signals to consumers. There actually is more demand for food, Asia and Latin America are rapidly becoming more and more prosperous and are starting to have more variety in their diets. Unless the chinese only eat a bowl full of rice every day, food prices are going to be at the levels where they are, which is a net benefit to Canada being as we are one of the world's main food exporters.

Unless you want the food subsidy program to keep going, which I doubt it is. It was one of the pillars of European gov't spending which helped put them in the mess they are in. THe open market is far better at providing food for the world.

And its not like the wheat board didn't benefit from speculation as well. Where do you think they got the foundation on where to negotiate the price of wheat for their contracts? Do you think the wheat board arbitrarily decides what the price of wheat will be to their customers?

Edited October 21, 2011 by blueblood

[cybercoma]

The sharp rise in prices cannot be solely attributed to population growth. I acknowledged liquidity, but it has gotten to the point where food producers have become a small minority of those trading on futurse. The dramatic increase in price over the last decade is a result of the proportion of food producers to speculators being inverted. I'm not suggesting we get rid of speculators entirely, but their needs to be limits put on their activities. Since their only purpose is to make money, they don't care about the very real consequence of people starving in developing areas because the cost of food has increased dramatically.

See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/14/how-banks-cause-world-hunger_n_960926.html

[fellowtraveller]

Will Harper move next to end the ridiculous and artificial prices in dairy/cheese in Canada created by supply side management?

[Smallc]

Will Harper move next to end the ridiculous and artificial prices in dairy/cheese in Canada created by supply side management?

Or maybe the very similar to the Wheatboard Freshwater Marketing Corporation? And yes, the Canadian Dairy Commission should go too.

[blueblood]

The sharp rise in prices cannot be solely attributed to population growth. I acknowledged liquidity, but it has gotten to the point where food producers have become a small minority of those trading on futurse. The dramatic increase in price over the last decade is a result of the proportion of food producers to speculators being inverted. I'm not suggesting we get rid of speculators entirely, but their needs to be limits put on their activities. Since their only purpose is to make money, they don't care about the very real consequence of people starving in developing areas because the cost of food has increased dramatically.

See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/14/how-banks-cause-world-hunger_n_960926.html

Do you know what's happening in the former USSR and Latin America. The high grain prices are resulting in a massive investment in these areas of the world to increase food production similar to North Americas. You have to remember who those speculators are, quite often hedge funds which represent many people's retirements, it's better they make money with this than have the gov't jack up taxes to pay for them. The people in developing areas are getting into ag production and fast. Without those high food prices, the people in developing countries were forced out of business by places like the USA and Europe which had the government subsidize food production at below cost of production. That was a disaster.

[blueblood]

Or maybe the very similar to the Wheatboard Freshwater Marketing Corporation? And yes, the Canadian Dairy Commission should go too.

It should go, but won't for a quite some time, if you thought there was a kerfuffle with the wheat board you haven't seen anything yet. Your talking about guys who had the Cadillac gov't assisstance plan, so much so that their industry is a house of cards.

[blueblood]

The sharp rise in prices cannot be solely attributed to population growth. I acknowledged liquidity, but it has gotten to the point where food producers have become a small minority of those trading on futurse. The dramatic increase in price over the last decade is a result of the proportion of food producers to speculators being inverted. I'm not suggesting we get rid of speculators entirely, but their needs to be limits put on their activities. Since their only purpose is to make money, they don't care about the very real consequence of people starving in developing areas because the cost of food has increased dramatically.

See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/14/how-banks-cause-world-hunger_n_960926.html

Do you know what's happening in the former USSR and Latin America. The high grain prices are resulting in a massive investment in these areas of the world to increase food production similar to North Americas. You have to remember who those speculators are, quite often hedge funds which represent many people's retirements, it's better they make money with this than have the gov't jack up taxes to pay for them. The people in developing areas are getting into ag production and fast. Without those high food prices, the people in developing countries were forced out of business by places like the USA and Europe which had the government subsidize food production at below cost of production. That was a disaster.

[Smallc]

It should go, but won't for a quite some time,

Maybe not the Dairy Board, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Freshwater go. The fishers (I hate that gender neutral word) aren't exactly thrilled with it right now.

[blueblood]

Maybe not the Dairy Board, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Freshwater go. The fishers (I hate that gender neutral word) aren't exactly thrilled with it right now.

I don't know anything about the fishers board, I never heard of that one so I can't comment on that one. I do know about the dairy board, and that's a "third rail" when making gov't ag policy. Unfortunately for everybody else it is a significant stumbling block at the WTO and for getting a new WTO deal.

[Smallc]

I don't know anything about the fishers board, I never heard of that one so I can't comment on that one.

It works like for wheat. You have to market through them...except if they can't sell a certain fish, you get nothing for it. You can't sell it on your own.

[blueblood]

It works like for wheat. You have to market through them...except if they can't sell a certain fish, you get nothing for it. You can't sell it on your own.

Sounds more like dairy because anything involving animal production involves quotas. With the nature of fishing, i think there are lots of rules, etc.

[Smallc]

Sounds more like dairy because anything involving animal production involves quotas. With the nature of fishing, i think there are lots of rules, etc.

Many fisherman in Manitoba want to form their own co-operative, and market their product themselves. It's really no different than wheat producers want.

[blueblood]

Many fisherman in Manitoba want to form their own co-operative, and market their product themselves. It's really no different than wheat producers want.

Thers's going to be another side kicking and screaming about something like that. There always is.

[Smallc]

Thers's going to be another side kicking and screaming about something like that. There always is.

Yeah...the Manitoba NDP. I love them and all, but they're on the wrong side of government intervention in the market.

[blueblood]

Yeah...the Manitoba NDP. I love them and all, but they're on the wrong side of government intervention in the market.

If you look at mb history, the Winnipeg grain exchange was one of the biggest exchanges in western north America. The Canadian wheat board all but shuttered it. The ndp was complaining about cwb employees losing jobs, yet kept mum on brokers and grain traders gaining jobs...

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I like how this whole debacle is another example of good policy vs. Ideology.

Harper had them vote, hoping it would be a favourable outcome. Most farmers voted to keep the wheat board realizing that the destruction of the wheat board is actually in favour of Mega Agricorps.

What do the ideologues do? Keep on the path, ignore the results.

When ideology becomes a religion, all we get is an irrational and dangerous government that makes bad decisions and ignores the will of the people.

That being said, those farmers who benefit from the wheat board voted the cons in knowing their plan (if if they disagreed with it). So, they deserve it.

Edited October 22, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[blueblood]

I like how this whole debacle is another example of good policy vs. Ideology.

Harper had them vote, hoping it would be a favourable outcome. Most farmers voted to keep the wheat board realizing that the destruction of the wheat board is actually in favour of Mega Agricorps.

What do the ideologues do? Keep on the path, ignore the results.

When ideology becomes a religion, all we get is an irrational and dangerous government that makes bad decisions and ignores the will of the people.

That being said, those farmers who benefit from the wheat board voted the cons in knowing their plan (if if they disagreed with it). So, they deserve it.

How is it a debacle? What's with the "mega agricorps" angle? If I'm making money, why should I care if they are?

How was this a bad decision? Is there a benefit to the wheat board? Their performance is debatable.

It's really frustrating when people who don't know the grain industry think they know what's best for producers. Go back and read my posts, and get a crash course in how things are done.

Do city people actually believe that if the wheat board monopoly goes away farmers will become instantly broke?

[cybercoma]

Again, I don't know how I feel about this. I'm not really sure I agree one way or the other.

But, has anyone actually looked into the why the CWB was started? I haven't seen a single person on this forum say, "here's the historical significance of the wheat board" and "this is why that doesn't matter any more." Are the problems that the Wheat Board was trying to solve no longer a concern? Is the Wheat Board ineffective at solving those problems? It's not like the thing serves absolutely no purpose. What is that purpose?

[blueblood]

Again, I don't know how I feel about this. I'm not really sure I agree one way or the other.

But, has anyone actually looked into the why the CWB was started? I haven't seen a single person on this forum say, "here's the historical significance of the wheat board" and "this is why that doesn't matter any more." Are the problems that the Wheat Board was trying to solve no longer a concern? Is the Wheat Board ineffective at solving those problems? It's not like the thing serves absolutely no purpose. What is that purpose?

Oh krikey!!

The cwb as we know it got started much like other govt spending keynesian nonsense, during the depression. At that time producers didn't know how markets worked and thought that the elevators were pulling the old screw job so they used their political clout and complained to govt and voila the cwb.

[cybercoma]

Your explanation doesn't sound biased at all.