Shipbuilding contracts

[Derek 2.0]

This isn't anything like that. There's a reason we have contract negotiations, price ceilings, targets, benchmarks, etc.

No, the shipbuilder is saying we will need to double our budget, or accept lesser capabilities and/or ships..........the options for the Government are really simple........Irving won't agree to a contract that would cost them money.

[overthere]

Only partisans could blame the Liberals for Conservative military procurement failures.

Kosovo and Afghanistan were two examples of frightening undertakings that Chretien sent our armed forces on with very poor equipment after Chretien slashed their budgets. Not Mulroney, not Harper. That is fact, not partisan.

And I agree with the suggestion that Trudeau will do the same, and has begun the process of both refusing to do anything meaningful to help our allies(now begin in Syria), and to beggar our men and women in service. I acknowledge that the latter is partisan and has yet to occur.

[Smallc]

No, the shipbuilder is saying we will need to double our budget, or accept lesser capabilities and/or ships..........the options for the Government are really simple........Irving won't agree to a contract that would cost them money.

You and I have no idea what will make them money. There are reasons for hiring this expert. We need informed management.

[Smallc]

Kosovo and Afghanistan were two examples of frightening undertakings that Chretien sent our armed forces on with very poor equipment after Chretien slashed their budgets. Not Mulroney, not Harper. That is fact, not partisan.

And I agree with the suggestion that Trudeau will do the same, and has begun the process of both refusing to do anything meaningful to help our allies(now begin in Syria), and to beggar our men and women in service. I acknowledge that the latter is partisan and has yet to occur.

Harper actually slashed the budget as much as Chrétien and left his own plan far underfunded. Keep up the partisanship though.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Smallc

[Derek 2.0]

You and I have no idea what will make them money. There are reasons for hiring this expert. We need informed management.

It doesn't mater.....if they say they will need double the amount of money, for x numbers of ships with a y level of capability, the Government has zero leverage against Irving.......other than threatening to go elsewhere or cancel the program...........hence the Government can choose to:

1 . add more money

2 . accept less vessels

3 . reduce the capability of said ships

Or any mix of the three........

On paper, with Irving doubling the production costs (as opposed to the budgeted portion associated with weapons, electronics, sensors etc and support/training), the actual steel bashing, we have very few options..........

The Government can submit to Irving (as outlined) or tell them to shove it........and Irving knows it.

[bush_cheney2004]

..The Government can submit to Irving (as outlined) or tell them to shove it........and Irving knows it.

Didn't Irving already respond to an RFP on a cost-plus contract ? How can they just "double" the LBM costs ?

[Smallc]

Didn't Irving already respond to an RFP on a cost-plus contract ? How can they just "double" the LBM costs ?

Hence the expert. I think Derek needs some negotiating skills before they can hire him as czar.

[Derek 2.0]

Didn't Irving already respond to an RFP on a cost-plus contract ? How can they just "double" the LBM costs ?

Deep fried food

[Derek 2.0]

Hence the expert. I think Derek needs some negotiating skills before they can hire him as czar.

I think you don't understand the concept of leverage.........as in a Government committed to building warships with Irving doesn't have any.

[Smallc]

I think you don't understand the concept of leverage.........as in a Government committed to building warships with Irving doesn't have any.

There are other shipbuilders. If their claim is completely out to lunch, goodbye CSC contract.

[Derek 2.0]

There are other shipbuilders. If their claim is completely out to lunch, goodbye CSC contract.

Hence my point several posts back.........

[Argus]

This isn't anything like that. There's a reason we have contract negotiations, price ceilings, targets, benchmarks, etc.

I agree. If they signed a contract to produce 15 ships for X dollars then that's what they need to produce. If they can't do it then we should cancel the contract.

And frankly, given cost restraints, we should have another country build them. That would save us a fortune. It won't happen, though, for political reasons. The Liberals have too many seats out east.

[Argus]

Harper actually slashed the budget as much as Chrétien and left his own plan far underfunded. Keep up the partisanship though.

As to the first, yes, you are correct. As to the second, it seems to me that the private sector told them what it would cost, and happily bid on it. Their bids were already, by the way, far higher than it would have cost us to have the Americans or others build these ships.

The question, however, is what are they likely to do about it. It is as it is, and now we're gauging their economic problems vs their traditional non-interest in the well being of the Canadian military.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Argus

[Derek 2.0]

I agree. If they signed a contract to produce 15 ships for X dollars then that's what they need to produce.

There hasn't been a contract signed........

[Big Guy]

Speech from the Throne; ..."we will build a leaner and more agile military".

Say good bye to F-35 and large ships. Say hello to helicopters and Coast Guard vessels.

[overthere]

Speech from the Throne; ..."we will build a leaner and more agile military".

Say good bye to F-35 and large ships. Say hello to helicopters and Coast Guard vessels.

Translation: we're going to gut the armed forces like always, then send them to foreign lands to die.

[DogOnPorch]

Translation: we're going to gut the armed forces like always, then send them to foreign lands to die.

Perhaps with green uniforms in the desert.

[Smallc]

Translation: we're going to gut the armed forces like always, then send them to foreign lands to die.

That would be a point if Harper hadn't done just the same after all of his big talk.

[The_Squid]

Speech from the Throne; ..."we will build a leaner and more agile military".

Say good bye to F-35 and large ships. Say hello to helicopters and Coast Guard vessels.

The Coast Guard is not military....

[Smallc]

The Coast Guard is not military....

I doubt we'll see the Liberals select a high end design for the Canadian Surface Combatant. The ships aren't to be built within this mandate, but the designer and warship integrator are to be selected.

[Smallc]

That said, we're going to need to see the signing of the Coast Guard OOSV project contract very soon if things are going to be kept on track. It will start construction as soon as the first OFSV is finished. We'll also need to see a contract for the JSS as the first one is to begin construction not long after the OOSV.

[Derek 2.0]

I doubt we'll see the Liberals select a high end design for the Canadian Surface Combatant. The ships aren't to be built within this mandate, but the designer and warship integrator are to be selected.

But I thought, in this very thread, you suggested the Liberals were committed to maintaining a "blue water navy"? Now you're suggesting they will sacrifice capability to save money? At what point can we call this a broken Trudeau promise?

Right now, the RCN would be hard pressed to operate in a medium threat environment (post FELEX).......you're suggesting its going to get worse?

[Smallc]

I'm suggesting it will stay at where it is, + AORs. I'm also suggesting that it would be the case no matter who was in power.

[Derek 2.0]

I'm suggesting it will stay at where it is, + AORs. I'm also suggesting that it would be the case no matter who was in power.

So not a blue water navy........despite a promise by the Trudeau Liberals.

[Smallc]

So not a blue water navy........despite a promise by the Trudeau Liberals.

I don't speak for them. I'm telling you what I expect given the current situation.