Shipbuilding contracts

[Smallc]

No it wasn't, as the current Government has no money set aside for a series of vessels yet to be designed

There is $26B (construction + maintenance) set aside in budgets over the next 30 years starting in the 2020s. That has been the case since the program was envisioned. That they will now cost $42B is actually not as big of a deal as it looks over the time frame.

[Smallc]

Interesting, as no enemy has done more harm to Canadian readiness than Canada itself...and time.

I would argue that time has been less the problem than a fickle Canadian electorate.

[Derek 2.0]

There is $26B (construction + maintenance) set aside in budgets over the next 30 years starting in the 2020s. That has been the case since the program was envisioned. That they will now cost $42B is actually not as big of a deal as it looks over the time frame.

Trudeau has budgets for the next 30 years for a ship yet designed? Who knew? So CBC's reporting is much ado about nothing, as such, the Trudeau Government should have no problem delivering 15 vessels, with capabilities needed by the navy, to serve through to the middle of the century in a modern blue water capacity.........if you say so

Then why all the talk of rebuilding the navy of the 1970s? You'd better tell the head of the navy not to sweat it.......

[Smallc]

Trudeau has budgets for the next 30 years for a ship yet designed?

No one has, however the budget framework includes those expenses, just as it includes all other expected expenses.

So CBC's reporting is much ado about nothing, as such, the Trudeau Government should have no problem delivering 15 vessels, with capabilities needed by the navy, to serve through to the middle of the century in a modern blue water capacity.........if you say so

An extra allotment for shipbuilding will be necessary at some point in the future, outside of this mandate, if costs continue to rise.

Then why all the talk of rebuilding the navy of the 1970s? You'd better tell the head of the navy not to sweat it.......

I've already told you that's my own line of thought and nothing else.

[Derek 2.0]

No one has, however the budget framework includes those expenses, just as it includes all other expected expenses.

No, the budget framework currently includes operating expenses associated with a navy, be that operating our current frigates past their best before date or a replacement type.

An extra allotment for shipbuilding will be necessary at some point in the future, outside of this mandate, if costs continue to rise.

No, an allotment for shipbuilding will be necessary to build anything period, that it will cost more than expected is neither here nor there, outside what this Government (or a future Government) is willing to spend.

Trudeau said he was committed to funding a blue water surface force of 15 vessels (in addition to the remainder of the shipbuilding program), as such, he will either pay for what he promised or he will break his promise.

I've already told you that's my own line of thought and nothing else.

Yes, and you suggested a review would result in said "logical" conclusion...........my response, your line of thought would only be logical if we were building a navy in the 1950s, to serve into the 1970s, based on doctrine from the 1940s.........to serve past the 2050s.......

[Smallc]

The Liberals have included all planned budgets going forward. The Conservatives had bug set projections to 2030. Provuremenr is included within that. Prove otherwise.

[Derek 2.0]

The Liberals have included all planned budgets going forward. The Conservatives had bug set projections to 2030. Provuremenr is included within that. Prove otherwise.

I did countless times already.

[Smallc]

I did countless times already.

That does not prove anything. The Liberals have continued the current Conservative funding envelope which projects beyond the current 4 year mandate. Stop being misleading.

[Derek 2.0]

That does not prove anything. The Liberals have continued the current Conservative funding envelope which projects beyond the current 4 year mandate. Stop being misleading.

Expect the Liberals have no planned funding, in the next four years, for billions of dollars of new naval vessels.

[Smallc]

Expect the Liberals have no planned funding, in the next four years, for billions of dollars of new naval vessels.

They have the same money for the same vessels and the Conservatives (the JSS and OOSV). They will have to find more money for the CCG portion. You're going on about the same wrong point.

[Derek 2.0]

They have the same money for the same vessels and the Conservatives (the JSS and OOSV). They will have to find more money for the CCG portion. You're going on about the same wrong point.

Perhaps I missed it, in what year, in the Liberals fiscal plan, includes funding for the JSS and OOSV.......likewise, the tens of billions for the new frigates?

Edited December 5, 2015 by Derek 2.0

[Smallc]

Perhaps I missed it, in what year, in the Liberals fiscal plan, includes funding for the JSS and OOSV.......likewise, the tens of billions for the new frigates?

The funding for the OOSV is already included in the procurement portion of the CCG budget estimates for the next 4 years. The JSS funding is already included in the procurement portion of the CF budget for the next 4 years and beyond. Perhaps if you understood how budgeting works?

[Derek 2.0]

The funding for the OOSV is already included in the procurement portion of the CCG budget estimates for the next 4 years. The JSS funding is already included in the procurement portion of the CF budget for the next 4 years and beyond. Perhaps if you understood how budgeting works?

No it isn't.......do you not read your own links:

"Government will be asked to make some significant decisions soon, including one on whether to approve the [increased] funding of OOSV and additional funding for CSC," the document said, even though neither program has resulted in a completed design.

I understand perfectly how budget cycles work......the key requirement being money.......which the Liberals don't have.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Derek 2.0

[Smallc]

No it isn't.......do you not read your own links:

There is a procurement budget within the CCG. In order to increase the envelope dedicated to the OOSV as is needed, the budget either needs to take from other areas or be increased overall.

What the link shows is what you don't seem to understand - there is already money there, the Harper government simply didn't dedicate enough money for the ship that we're planning to order in the case of the OOSV.

I understand perfectly how budget cycles work......the key requirement being money.......which the Liberals don't have.

You obviously don't understand that each budget year includes a procurement portion.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

,,,,You obviously don't understand that each budget year includes a procurement portion.

Can somebody please point to Parliament's actual appropriations for these things ?

Don't you guys write any of this down in public documents ?

Or is that why some members here constantly rely on U.S. DoD, Pentagon and GAO documentation instead ?

Edited December 5, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Smallc]

Don't you guys write any of this down in public documents ?

I'm sure it is, but it hasn't been easily accessible without a request. That's something the Liberals are planning to change.

[Smallc]

Actually, I stand corrected:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs/index.page

Some of it is there.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, I stand corrected:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs/index.page

Some of it is there.

Thanks, but I mean the actual appropriations bill...the actual MONEY authorized to SPEND and passed by vote....something like this in PDF or TXT format for all to see:

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/114th-congress/senate-report/63/1

ETA: Some of the Canadian threat capability-assessments just regurgitate U.S. defense reviews that Canada has no intention of countering; references to Wikipedia for the definition of fighter aircraft does not inspire confidence.

Edited December 6, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Smallc]

Not in an easily accessible way up until this point.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not in an easily accessible way up until this point.

OK, but how does the general public get to review actual spending bills in Canada ? Aren't the shipbuilding contract RFPs a matter of public record as required by law ? Does everybody have to wait for the CBC to break a news story after the fact ?

Sarcastically....WTF...over ?

Edited December 6, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Derek 2.0]

There is a procurement budget within the CCG. In order to increase the envelope dedicated to the OOSV as is needed, the budget either needs to take from other areas or be increased overall.

I never said there wasn't.......hence the Government needs to add money.

What the link shows is what you don't seem to understand - there is already money there, the Harper government simply didn't dedicate enough money for the ship that we're planning to order in the case of the OOSV.

Huh? The last budget ends with this fiscal year, its not Harper's what the current Government decides to fund or not......as the contract for the OOSV (like the JSS) has yet to be signed.

You obviously don't understand that each budget year includes a procurement portion.

I understand that perfectly, what you don't understand, at the end of this fiscal year, budgets going forward will be Liberal budgets, as such, if there isn't money to sign the contracts for the OOSV (or JSS) that is the Trudeau Liberals decision........what a Harper Government would or would not have done in 2016/2017, 2017/2018 etc fiscal years is moot.

Based on the Liberal's fiscal plan, that accounts for the next four fiscal years of spending, they do not have money put aside for new ships.......that has nothing to do with former Prime Minister Harper.

[Smallc]

I understand that perfectly, what you don't understand, at the end of this fiscal year, budgets going forward will be Liberal budgets, as such, if there isn't money to sign the contracts for the OOSV (or JSS) that is the Trudeau Liberals decision........what a Harper Government would or would not have done in 2016/2017, 2017/2018 etc fiscal years is moot.

I'll eat my hat if the projects don't go forward. The problem from the Conservative end is two fold - not enough money set aside, and too much money allowed lapse.

Based on the Liberal's fiscal plan, that accounts for the next four fiscal years of spending, they do not have money put aside for new ships.......that has nothing to do with former Prime Minister Harper.

At the time that document was constructed, we (and the Liberals) didn't know that there wasn't enough money. The Conservatives did, apparently. The Liberals have already moved swiftly to repair what they can right now.

[bush_cheney2004]

....At the time that document was constructed, we (and the Liberals) didn't know that there wasn't enough money. The Conservatives did, apparently. The Liberals have already moved swiftly to repair what they can right now.

What ? How is it possible for any member of Parliament not to have access to such numbers ? Is it kept a big secret by the ruling party ?

[Smallc]

What ? How is it possible for any member of Parliament not to have access to such numbers ? Is it kept a big secret by the ruling party ?

The report was buried inside DND. It didn't involve actual money being spent at this point, so it never came up, I would suspect.

[bush_cheney2004]

The report was buried inside DND. It didn't involve actual money being spent at this point, so it never came up, I would suspect.

OK...so all the "money" is kept in a big opaque pool by DND with no specific earmarks or oversight ?

They can buy or not buy whatever they want ?

Canadians here have no difficulty finding out every dime "wasted" on the F-35 by the U.S. !

Edited December 6, 2015 by bush_cheney2004