So Gilad Shalit is being returned to Israel.

[Bob]

So as you folks have probably seen, Israel struck a deal with Hamas to have Gilad Shalit returned in exchange for the release of about 1027 terrorists. I want to direct your attention to the language used by most media outlets when describing the events of Gilad Shalit's abduction. The reality is of course that Hamas and other terrorist outfits have been, for decades, embarking on attempts to abduct Israelis and others as hostages. Gilad Shalit, unfortunately, was the victim of one of these abductions, where he was smuggled through a tunnel dug underground that connected Gaza to Israel. How are these events described by the vermin in the media, who use the same language as Al-Jazeera? It was not an abduction, it was not a kidnapping, it was a "cross-border raid". Gilad wasn't abducted or kidnapped, he was "captured".

Anyways, here's a recent CBC article about the good news.

[The_Squid]

It's war Bobby.... soldiers get captured in wars all the time.

[August1991]

Sopay as you folks have probably seen, Israel struck a deal with Hamas to have Gilad Shalit returned in exchange for the release of about 1027 terrorists.

Bob, you use the word terrorist.

IMV, Hamas paid 1000 people for 1 Israeli. In WWII, would Canada have given 1000 Germans for 1 Canadian?

BTW, this is news in France. Gilad Shalit is a French citizen, and an Israeli.

Edited October 12, 2011 by August1991

[Bob]

Bob, you use the word terrorist.

IMV, Hamas paid 1000 people for 1 Israeli. In WWII, would Canada have given 1000 Germans for 1 Canadian?

BTW, this is news in France. Gilad Shalit is a French citizen, and an Israeli.

Well, the life of one Israeli is worth more than the lives of all the people in the Middle East. Hopefully Israel will keep tabs on the convicted terrorists they are releasing, and neutralize them afterwards in the near future before they are able to harm more Israelis. Some in Israel are unhappy with this arrangement, but that's how things are in Israel when your enemies are the Arabs/Muslims. This is the nature of the neighbourhood. Israel has done such things in the past, even for the remains of fallen soldiers. There is no comparison between us and them with respect to the degree to which we value our lives.

[Bob]

It's war Bobby.... soldiers get captured in wars all the time.

There is a difference between a capture and an abduction. Abducting people to use as hostages is an old tactic of these terrorists, they've been doing it for decades.

[Argus]

There is a difference between a capture and an abduction. Abducting people to use as hostages is an old tactic of these terrorists, they've been doing it for decades.

Why not, when it works so well. The abduction of one Israeli soldier didn't just bring Israel to its knees, it brought Israel to its belly, crawling and sniveling and begging the terrorists to release him at any cost. Dozens of convicted murderers will be released and Hamas has already said that all these people would be going right back into the 'struggle' and that Hamas would now do its best to kidnap more Israelis.

I don't know why Hamas is bothering to do anything else. Heck, kidnap a whole bus load of Israelis and the Israeli cabinet would probably surrender the whole country to get them back.

You know what I'd do if I was Hamas. The day after Israel has a great national celebration at his return, I'd kidnap another Israeli.

[August1991]

I don't know why Hamas is bothering to do anything else. Heck, kidnap a whole bus load of Israelis and the Israeli cabinet would probably surrender the whole country to get them back.

You know what I'd do if I was Hamas. The day after Israel has a great national celebration at his return, I'd kidnap another Israeli.

The Israeli government must weigh the very heavy cost of paying for this hostage against the benefit of gaining his freedom.

The benefit? Every Israeli mother knows that the Israeli government will negotiate her son's freedom. Israel will stand by her sons.

=====

I fear that we in the West will soon have to make such decisions. And I wonder whether we can decide as well as the Jews.

At this point, we're all Jewish.

Edited October 12, 2011 by August1991

[Bob]

Why not, when it works so well. The abduction of one Israeli soldier didn't just bring Israel to its knees, it brought Israel to its belly, crawling and sniveling and begging the terrorists to release him at any cost. Dozens of convicted murderers will be released and Hamas has already said that all these people would be going right back into the 'struggle' and that Hamas would now do its best to kidnap more Israelis.

I don't know why Hamas is bothering to do anything else. Heck, kidnap a whole bus load of Israelis and the Israeli cabinet would probably surrender the whole country to get them back.

You know what I'd do if I was Hamas. The day after Israel has a great national celebration at his return, I'd kidnap another Israeli.

Of course we can understand motivations of Hamas and the innumerable other terrorist organizations that constantly try to abduct people to use as hostages. They will never stop trying to do this, and Israel knows this. All Israel can do is its best towards prevention. Or, alternatively, Israel could untie its hands from behind its back and actually forcefully respond to such attacks. If it was up to me, Gaza would not receive any electricity, water, or aid, at a minimum, until Gilad Shalit's return. Unfortunately, the Israeli government has never had the courage to do what's necessary in most circumstances.

[Argus]

Of course we can understand motivations of Hamas and the innumerable other terrorist organizations that constantly try to abduct people to use as hostages. They will never stop trying to do this, and Israel knows this. All Israel can do is its best towards prevention. Or, alternatively, Israel could untie its hands from behind its back and actually forcefully respond to such attacks. If it was up to me, Gaza would not receive any electricity, water, or aid, at a minimum, until Gilad Shalit's return. Unfortunately, the Israeli government has never had the courage to do what's necessary in most circumstances.

You can't punish a population for the behaviour of a group within it. But they could have and should have started 'collecting' all senior Hamas officials and leaders and stuck them so far underground you'd have to pipe in daylight. As every arrested official is replaced, arrest the next one. If you have to put ten or twenty thousand of them in prison, you do that. But you don't let free murderers, especially terrorist murderers. I'm sure Israel has any number of minor offenders in prison I'd not be unhappy they used as bargaining chips, but to set free terrorist murderers is unconscionable and cowardly. If this is what a 'hard line' Israeli government is like I wonder what wretched the doves are...

[Bob]

You can't punish a population for the behaviour of a group within it. But they could have and should have started 'collecting' all senior Hamas officials and leaders and stuck them so far underground you'd have to pipe in daylight. As every arrested official is replaced, arrest the next one. If you have to put ten or twenty thousand of them in prison, you do that. But you don't let free murderers, especially terrorist murderers. I'm sure Israel has any number of minor offenders in prison I'd not be unhappy they used as bargaining chips, but to set free terrorist murderers is unconscionable and cowardly. If this is what a 'hard line' Israeli government is like I wonder what wretched the doves are...

Well, you can punish whoever you want to. This "can't punish" statement of yours is self-limiting. Israel can do whatever it chooses to do, and it chooses not to do what I think it should do. Aside from that, don't think for a second that the population of Gaza isn't largely in support of the abduction of Gilad Shalit, past abductions, and ongoing efforts to abduct others.

As far as "collecting" Hamas officials and leaders, you do realize that Gaza isn't a place where Israeli police can just walk into and start knocking on doors, right? Israel only enters Gaza with its military, and typically only with armoured vehicles while blowing holes through the walls of buildings and holing up in apartments, with or without Gazan residents. It is like our own little Wild West, where every window and rooftop is a potential threat. Gaza isn't an ordinary place with ordinary people. It is a territory run by terrorists, with mass support (material, not just political) from the populace. It takes a lot of hard work just to identify where a given target is likely to be, and even then, he (almost never a she) is taken out with technology (some sort of air strike, drone or otherwise).

I understand your perspective that releasing convicted mass murderers is difficult, although I wouldn't describe it as unconscionable. But these mass murderers are the very same rats that Hamas is demanding in exchange for Shalit. They are the heroes that will be celebrated when they return to Gaza, just like Meghrabi was when he was returned to Libya and as Samir Kuntar was when he was returned to Lebanon. Arabs/Muslims celebrate their mass murderers as heroes. It's who they are and what they do. Remember that the PLF, a "Palestinian" terrorist group, hijacked an Italian cruise ship with hundreds of passengers and murdered a wheelchair-bound Jewish passenger in order to demand the release of hundreds of their terrorist homeboys along with Samir Kuntar. I said it before and I'll say it again, the life of one Israeli (Jewish) is worth more than all the lives of all the Muslims in the Middle East.

Of course Israel's current administration is not even close to "hard-line", but you're smart enough to realize that the vermin in the media throw around terms like "ultra-nationalist" (as if they would ever describe anyone as "mild-nationalist"), "hard-right" and "far-right" around ridiculously. Still, I support the exchange if Israel is confident that it can keep tabs on these rats and neutralize them accordingly in the short-term before they have a chance to kill again.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Bob

[August1991]

You can't punish a population for the behaviour of a group within it. But they could have and should have started 'collecting' all senior Hamas officials and leaders and stuck them so far underground you'd have to pipe in daylight.

And yet, that's precisely what you prescribe.

If thugs captured you and held you for random, what would your family do? Sign over your pension to them, as you would in a bad divorce case?

As I say, I fear that we will soon, in a few decades, be dealing at this level.

[Bonam]

You can't punish a population for the behaviour of a group within it.

Israel doesn't owe Gaza anything. Withholding aid, fuel, and electricity is perfectly within its rights. In fact, my opinion is that Israel should immediately and permanently cease the transfer of any goods or services to Gaza. Why the heck should it be helping its enemies? Israel has no responsibility for Gaza, it pulled out of the territory years ago.

But they could have and should have started 'collecting' all senior Hamas officials and leaders and stuck them so far underground you'd have to pipe in daylight. As every arrested official is replaced, arrest the next one.

Unfortunately, going into Gaza and arresting people means violent clashes, which leads to deaths, which the international community and the media chooses to universally blame on Israel regardless of the circumstances. Israel has always been afraid to offend the international community.

But you don't let free murderers, especially terrorist murderers. I'm sure Israel has any number of minor offenders in prison I'd not be unhappy they used as bargaining chips, but to set free terrorist murderers is unconscionable and cowardly.

Israel tried offering Hamas only prisoners who had committed lesser offenses, but predictably Hamas declined the offer. Anyway, Bob is right, one Israeli soldier is worth more than a thousand terrorist scum.

The conflict will never end so long as Israel continues to elect governments that let themselves be hamstrung by the world's expectations. Abduction across an international boundary is an act of war and should be treated as such, regardless of what the fools at the UN will say about Israel. They spend their days and nights condemning Israel anyway, acting more aggressively won't change anything.

[jbg]

There is no comparison between us and them with respect to the degree to which we value our lives.

Still, the idea of bargaining at all with Hamas makes me nauseous, even if we do value life and Hamas doesn't.

[guyser]

Well, the life of one Israeli is worth more than the lives of all the people in the Middle East.

You could put in a thousand and you still wouldnt be close.

[jacee]

Israel doesn't owe Gaza anything. Withholding aid, fuel, and electricity is perfectly within its rights. In fact, my opinion is that Israel should immediately and permanently cease the transfer of any goods or services to Gaza. Why the heck should it be helping its enemies? Israel has no responsibility for Gaza, it pulled out of the territory years ago.

Unfortunately, going into Gaza and arresting people means violent clashes, which leads to deaths, which the international community and the media chooses to universally blame on Israel regardless of the circumstances. Israel has always been afraid to offend the international community.

Israel tried offering Hamas only prisoners who had committed lesser offenses, but predictably Hamas declined the offer. Anyway, Bob is right, one Israeli soldier is worth more than a thousand terrorist scum.

The conflict will never end so long as Israel continues to elect governments that let themselves be hamstrung by the world's expectations. Abduction across an international boundary is an act of war and should be treated as such, regardless of what the fools at the UN will say about Israel. They spend their days and nights condemning Israel anyway, acting more aggressively won't change anything.

Israel is free to offend whomever it wants to, and certainly has offended lots of people. The consequence, though, is loss of billion$ in charity and government support, a fact that you fail to consider.

What "international boundary" Bonam? Did Israel recognize the Palestinian state and I missed it?

[Bob]

Israel is free to offend whomever it wants to, and certainly has offended lots of people. The consequence, though, is loss of billion$ in charity and government support, a fact that you fail to consider.

What "international boundary" Bonam? Did Israel recognize the Palestinian state and I missed it?

You're stating your speculation as fact. Israel's reception of foreign aid from the USA, averaging about two and half billion dollars per year since 1979, may or may not be contingent on Israel's supplying of Gaza with water and electricity (which Israel is paid for with foreign aid money allocated for the "Palestinians", since they have a broken economy).

Nobody knows about these other billions of dollars that Israel is receiving in "charity" that is somehow contingent on Israel not "offending" these unspecified people you're referring to.

The "international boundary" Bonam is referring to is simple - the Gaza-Israel border. Of course, the geography of Israel and the territories eludes you. Just another minor detail you can remain ignorant of. As far as "recognition" of "Palestine", nobody really know what you're talking about. There is no "Palestine", there are just pockets of land where Arabs/Muslim who recently labelled themselves "Palestinians" currently live with varying degrees of autonomy.

[Bob]

Still, the idea of bargaining at all with Hamas makes me nauseous, even if we do value life and Hamas doesn't.

Well, we don't choose the world we live in or all of the circumstances that affect us. It is what it is, and the fact that there is a thousand to one ratio in this trade is a perfect illustration of the value (justifiably) we attach to the lives of our own, and the worthlessness (also justifiably) that the "Palestinians" attach to their own.

[Peter F]

Well, we don't choose the world we live in or all of the circumstances that affect us. It is what it is, and the fact that there is a thousand to one ratio in this trade is a perfect illustration of the value (justifiably) we attach to the lives of our own, and the worthlessness (also justifiably) that the "Palestinians" attach to their own.

It is to laugh. The Israeli government released 1000 mass murderers in exchange for 1 soldat? And Israeli's value life more? You're not makin much sense there bob. Unless, maybe, the 1000 mass murderers arn't mass murderers at all. never mind: that doesn't work either...

[DogOnPorch]

It is to laugh. The Israeli government released 1000 mass murderers in exchange for 1 soldat? And Israeli's value life more? You're not makin much sense there bob. Unless, maybe, the 1000 mass murderers arn't mass murderers at all. never mind: that doesn't work either...

Edited October 16, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[bud]

So as you folks have probably seen, Israel struck a deal with Hamas to have Gilad Shalit returned in exchange for the release of about 1027 terrorists. I want to direct your attention to the language used by most media outlets when describing the events of Gilad Shalit's abduction. The reality is of course that Hamas and other terrorist outfits have been, for decades, embarking on attempts to abduct Israelis and others as hostages. Gilad Shalit, unfortunately, was the victim of one of these abductions, where he was smuggled through a tunnel dug underground that connected Gaza to Israel.

two palestinian brothers were abducted by the IDF in gaza just a couple of days before shalit was abducted by hamas. no trial. nothing. both them and hundreds of other palestinians are lost somewhere in the israeli prison system and no one knows about them. thanks to the vermins in the media.

it's not the palestinians who value their lives less. it's you, the rest of israeli apologists and the vermins in the mainstream media who value their lives as less.

[DogOnPorch]

Pretty disgusting scene in Gaza today as thousands treat murderers as heros. I doubt Hamas has any plans for keeping them away from 'normal' society by...you know...locking them up for their crimes. So, free as birds. If I was a Hamas terrorist, I'd be thinking that kidnapping and terror works!

[Bob]

Pretty disgusting scene in Gaza today as thousands treat murderers as heros. I doubt Hamas has any plans for keeping them away from 'normal' society by...you know...locking them up for their crimes. So, free as birds. If I was a Hamas terrorist, I'd be thinking that kidnapping and terror works!

Some of them will become political/terrorist leaders. Most of them will do well for themselves and likely end up on the Hamas payroll, which effectively means their lives will be subsidized by America, Canada, Europe, Australia, and some other countries.

[Bonam]

Some of them will become political/terrorist leaders. Most of them will do well for themselves and likely end up on the Hamas payroll, which effectively means their lives will be subsidized by America, Canada, Europe, Australia, and some other countries.

Our tax dollars at work. Gotta love it!

[Bob]

I have some somewhat rhetorical questions for you folks.

1. What do we learn, if anything, from the jubilant reception extended from the "Palestinians" to the released prisoners? Bear in mind, over half of the prisoners released today are serving life sentences for murder or complicity in murder. What does the celebration of mass murderers tell us about the "Palestinians" on the one hand, and the prospects for "peace" on the other? Here's a video of tens of thousands of terrorist-lovers in Gaza City expressing their ecstasy over the return of mass murderers.

2. What do we learn, if anything, from the "interview" Gilad was put through immediately upon his arrival in Egypt, prior to even receiving a medical examination, seeing his family or representatives from Israel? Here are a few examples of questions he was asked by this talking head for Egyptian state television:

a> “During all that time of captivity, you did just one video to tell the world and your family that you’re alive, why just once? Why didn’t it happen again?” As if Shalit has any say in what communications he could have with the outside world.

b> “It was the Egyptian national security that mediated for your release. There were previous failed mediation efforts, including one by the Germans. Why do you think that this time round, the mediation was a success, and what would you like to tell the Egyptian authorities?” Expectedly, here is a transparent attempt to characterize the Egyptian role in the indirect negotiations between Israel and Hamas as somehow noble.

c> “Gilad, you know what it’s like to be in captivity, there are more than 4,000 Palestinians still languishing in Israeli jails. Will you help campaign for their release?” Self-explanatory rubbish.

3. How accurate is the mainstream media's widespread description of Mahmoud Abbas and his broader Fatah organization as "moderates" and advocates for non-violence when he himself was greeting some of the released terrorists in Ramallah with kisses and statements expressing solidarity with their "struggle"? Moreover, has anyone else noticed how the abduction of Shalit is often described as a "capture"? It wasn't a kidnapping, it wasn't an abduction, it wasn't terrorism... no, it was a "capture" in a "cross-border raid".

4. Anyone else notice the great difference in the conditions of Shalit, who was visibly emaciated, pale, disoriented, and walking with a slight limp, compared to the fat, fully-aware terrorist filth that were excitedly waving their hands out of the buses upon their arrival? The mainstream media has clearly made very little mention of this contrast.

There are a lot of other things I'd like to mention about this recent story, specifically with respect to the media's terrible reporting on this story, but I'll leave it there.

[Bob]

two palestinian brothers were abducted by the IDF in gaza just a couple of days before shalit was abducted by hamas. no trial. nothing. both them and hundreds of other palestinians are lost somewhere in the israeli prison system and no one knows about them. thanks to the vermins in the media.

it's not the palestinians who value their lives less. it's you, the rest of israeli apologists and the vermins in the mainstream media who value their lives as less.

Well, the above post is about 0% true. All prisoners in Israel, "Palestinian" or otherwise are given due process. There are no secret prisons in Israel. This statement about "hundreds of other 'Palestinian' prisoners lost somewhere in the Israeli prison system" is just another in the now endless list of examples demonstrating how much you love to make things up.