Wild Bill Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Jacee: My feelings, do you really care ...as long as i'm good to go the next time right....atleast that is what the doc said when we all interviewed for the next mission... "Oh it's Tommy this and Tommy that and 'Chuck 'im out, the brute! But it's 'Saviour of 'is country!' when the guns begin to shoot!" Hope my memory of Kipling is accurate but the point is clear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Road Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I really don't think it is any of our business meddling in the Muslim world. Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran. Honestly, we got problems here at home that need addressing first than to run off and try and solve other people's crises. And in regard to Khadr, we need a zero tolerance to Extremism. That said, he is Canadian and deserves the rights of nationhood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 What keeps children off the battle field is knowing there is legal consquences for their actions... Yes and the bulk of these consequences and especially their more punishing aspects normally apply to the adults who put children there. You appear to be arguing that Omar Khadr learned all he needed to know to realize these consequences existed during the short time he was in Canada before he was taken away and indoctrinated at age 8 into al Queada. Adults will spend a lifetime arguing over the legal differences between an insurgent, combatant, soldier, terrorist or freedom fighter yet you expect a young child to learn enough from kindergarten through grade 3 to decide all on his own just a few short years later. How? Again I have to ask exactly how do children weigh the legal consequences against any divine consequences they've been told about from not obeying their parents? does that make me some hard ass, with a black heart perhaps... Perhaps, ever wonder what Jesus would do? I'm not holding Omar responsiable for all the child soldiers problems in Afghan, just want a fair and just solution to his problems. a 40 year sentence is a forty year sentence...not 8...during that time he should get the help he needs mentally and physically.... He should be freed and given an official apology along with millions of dollars. No i've worked through my issues and i've learned to live with my demons...and my anger as you put it is not focused on the Khadrs but rather at the Taliban and AQ and other terrorist groups how they have commited crimes that would rival the Nazi's in some cases... I'm pretty sure the Nazis put kids into extrajudicial prison camps too. and the Khadrs were part of an organization that was an active part of all that, and no one can say with certainity that they are still not part of that... There's nothing stopping us from charging Khadr's mother with creating a monster other than the fear of opening an ideological can of heavily propagandized worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Again I have to ask exactly how do children weigh the legal consequences against any divine consequences they've been told about from not obeying their parents? Tell they to jump off a bridge ....do they hesitate , give you a strange look and say WTF are you talking about....why is that, even at a young age they know it is not right...but the question is will they obey you...not likely... Did Omar tell his mother and father YES i'll strap on the explosive vest,i'll blow myself up for you and the family if that is your wish...NO why is that ?...so your whole argument aboput children blindly following what they say is false or has limitations to it ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) Jacee: Ya lets take a look at that shall we, i remember getting on the plane ROTO 1 the second tour over, the place was lined with thousands of canadians waving little flags, the streets were lined with people shouting and screaming...Kick some ass, amoung other things.... Canada as a majority was all for the mission....later on it would stop being a Canadian mission with the support of the people but rather a Canadian Armed forces mission, with nothing to do with the people....and as part and parcel of that we had to pay for everything we needed for that mission in blood....everything, getting light jeeps replaced, getting helos, getting armed helo escorts...we paid for all that in our blood....all that changed how our soldiers seen our own nations people and their support..during that time we learned to adapt and over come most obsticles placed in our way... Shit for a time we even took over the diplomatic mission Ya not bad for a bunch of army guys we learned to borrow and steal off our allieds for equipment we desparately needed....developing deep bonds with our allieds so in the end we felt we had to betray them in order to follow our governments wishes to return home with the mission unfinished....instead stuck in a non combat role with all the rest of the non combat wieney nations.... So yes things have changed for our soldiers and we do or atleast most of us have a bad taste in our mouths in ref the Afghan mission... Do you really believe that crap, that this is about pipe lines and whats the other one bils in minerals, drugs ....since we've been there, there has not been one section of pipe laid...can you imigine what security that would take to keep the insurgents off it...Minerals buried deep in the ground, i doubt any mining company has even been to Afghanistan, without getting shot, or blown up....the drug trade ...while the major drug cartels are making bils off Afghan poppy market the average Afghan farmer is barely making enough to feed his family.... but then again all wars are for the corp america ....well most this one does not come close except the arms companies....there is nothing in Afghan except rock and dust... As a soldier we have countless hours on culture awareness, history behind Aghanistan, it's people it's wars, the region....then we get 6 to 7 months of being dipped right into the middle of Afghan, living with the poeple talking to them on a daily bases...understanding their problems because we are immersed in them...working with them to fix them....as for knowing what and how our government works we have access to everything the avg Canadian does, from TV direct feed, to intra net.... Canadian soldiers have first hand info when it comes to Afghan infact what the media reports most of the time we laugh and joke on how bad they screw that up....there has been very few reporters that even wnet outside the wire and seen what we did....We ask questions all the time and becasue we are soldiers we ask them in short and blunt terms, remember all those government types, just dieing to get over and see the boys....ya well they've been held over the coals a few times... We are soldiers, but we are Canadian soldiers and citizens not robots....these missions are 100% volunteer, and trust me soldiers know what they are getting into... Our every move has been under the micro scope since this mission has started, and we were judged the entire way...some examples have already been posted...here is my favorite my second tour, i'm eating supper watching the news and on comes the Prisoner abuse scandle remember that one....some Univeristy proff in Ottawa has gotten some evidence from an inmate in Afghan that he has and was abused by Canadian soldiers and once the story is broke he gets dozens of these letters....right away DND says it will investage...it sends out a flash message any and all prisoners are to be treated like gold, no bruises no nothing...lets forget we are at war, not some tues night cop show...we deal with fanitics not some drug induced robber as protrayed on TV...But in the media we are already tried and convicted...in fact this went on for months and months....an independent investagation found that the orginal prisoner wasn't even taken by Canadian soldiers....and poff the media shut up , it did not retract anything it just moved on, mean while joe blow Canadian thinks his nations soldiers are thugs....no we were judged and we had to justify everything.... My feelings, do you really care ...as long as i'm good to go the next time right....atleast that is what the doc said when we all interviewed for the next mission... Making war on child soldiers is more common than you think....to the piont it is very common,All those laws and agreements everyone keeps bringing up well there for you, back in Canada home safe and sound...for us soldiers over there it's reality, it's war, it's their war with no rules, except on our side...this is were i draw my opinions from from reality, as it happens every day in Afghan...not from a chair in a living room...And as far as you sending me over there, that stopped along time ago, when the support for the mission died and we started paying for what we needed with our blood...No we stuck up our hands and said pick me, becuase we believed in the mission, and the Afghan people. Do i hate child soldiers or dislike them....No, i do hate what they have forced me to do, i dispise those that have turned these kids into monsters, and stripped their inocence...But once i get kitted up and take my turn outside the wire, my head is screwed on tight, and i will do what it takes to bring the men under my charge back home to their loved ones... Thanks Army Guy. Your perspectives are important for us to hear.I think we can all agree with your statement I bolded above. Edited October 28, 2011 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 i dispise those that have turned these kids into monsters, and stripped their inocence This is no excuse for despising the kids too. They are not monsters, they are victims who are still in possession of all the innocence they were born with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) This is no excuse for despising the kids too. They are not monsters, they are victims who are still in possession of all the innocence they were born with. I agree, of course, that the children were innocents, though what they are, have become, monsters or not, must be assessed for danger to public safety.But WE put our soldiers in a war against children. Did we ask first whether that was the case? There are no winners here. Edited October 29, 2011 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noahbody Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 He should be freed and given an official apology along with millions of dollars. a If Canada gives an apology, it should be to Chris Speer's family for Chretien getting daddy out of prison so he could kill some more along with his family. Giving suspected financiers of Al Qaeda millions is pretty idiotic don't you think? Canada didn't capture or detain him. Hell, we worn tourists that they might not get assistance if they go into an uncivilized part of the world. That's kinda what Omar did... no to mention, helping out the bad guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) This is no excuse for despising the kids too.They are not monsters, they are victims who are still in possession of all the innocence they were born with. Unfortunately, that's not true. Furthermore, by 15 years of age, we have all been influenced by a number of factors and are not in possession of "all the innocence we were born with." Not even close. As such, we don't know what his beliefs would have been with a different upbringing; to claim he would have been a loving, caring, non-violent 15 year old is to ascribe a character to him - no more, no less. Plenty of 15 year olds who were raised with loving families don't possess their parents' belief/moral system. Some of them commit horrible crimes. But as often as you can repeat your "poor Omar deserves millions of dollars" belief, I can point out that Canada still has not arrested his mother and/or charged her with child abuse - as she continues to retain her Canadian citizenship and live the good life in Canada. Yes, yes. I know that you are outraged about that, too - you evidently just feel no need to go on and on about it the way you do about "poor Omar" - and don't feel the need to mention it unless it's to agree now and then when it's pointed out. If you truly believe he's a victim of his upbringing, you should be calling for charges and/or her deportation every bit as strongly as you are calling for "poor Omar" to be compensated for millions of dollars. Edited October 29, 2011 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 If you truly believe he's a victim of his upbringing, you should be calling for charges and/or her deportation every bit as strongly as you are calling for "poor Omar" to be compensated for millions of dollars. I've been calling for charges against her for years. It'll never happen though because such a charge would blow the lid of the fiction that her son chose to become a terrorist at the age of 8 when his illegal indoctrination as a child soldier began. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noahbody Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 It'll never happen though because such a charge would blow the lid of the fiction that her son chose to become a terrorist at the age of 8 when his illegal indoctrination as a child soldier began. Actually, Omar never attended training camps like his brothers did. Further, bringing up your children to believe that one day they should become soldiers of Allah isn't illegal. Teaching of religious beliefs is protected, not prosecuted in Canada nor in Pakistan where he was being raised and where he was enrolled in school at age 7. He had been back and forth between the two countries, but his mother was adamant the he be raised in Pakistan. As far as recruiting goes, he didn't attend training camps like his brothers. He wasn't recruited for a mission, he volunteered, which at 15 years of age was allowed until one month prior to his capture. The law was changed in May to prevent recruitment of anyone under 18 by non-state parties or guerrilla groups for any purpose. Since he was already in service at that time, I would argue no law was broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I would argue no law was broken. Like me these Canadian lawyers, the Supreme Court of Canada and the UN Special Representative for Children and Armed Conflict argue otherwise. "n every sense Omar represents the classic child soldier narrative; recruited by unscrupulous groups to undertake actions at the bidding of adults to fight battles they barely understand… http://www.lrwc.org/documents/LRWC.Repatriate.Omar.Khadr.Oct%2029%202010.pdf As I've pointed out it's the child soldier narrative that prevents our government from charging Omar's mother with his indoctrination. To do so would raise politically uncomfortable questions about the nature of the conflict known as the war on terror not to mention our involvement in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Tell they to jump off a bridge ....do they hesitate , give you a strange look and say WTF are you talking about....why is that, even at a young age they know it is not right...but the question is will they obey you...not likely... Did Omar tell his mother and father YES i'll strap on the explosive vest,i'll blow myself up for you and the family if that is your wish...NO why is that ?...so your whole argument aboput children blindly following what they say is false or has limitations to it ..... Iran did use human minesweepers/children in mass in it's war with iraq...thousands voluntarily went to their deaths believing they would go to heaven... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Road Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I agree Army Guy's writings help us understand the context much better, knowing what it is like their first-hand sure helps put things in perspective. Sometimes I think our liberal values are taken advantage of, you know. Do you think we (Canada) are viewed as "soft"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noahbody Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Did Omar tell his mother and father YES i'll strap on the explosive vest,i'll blow myself up for you and the family if that is your wish...NO why is that ?...so your whole argument aboput children blindly following what they say is false or has limitations to it ..... His younger brother asked that very thing. But so do many adults. It's not a phase in life, it's religion. Many will never question it, because that's what religion is - blind faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Tell they to jump off a bridge ....do they hesitate , give you a strange look and say WTF are you talking about....why is that, even at a young age they know it is not right...but the question is will they obey you...not likely... it's different. he was motivated by his family and by what he had seen; a country who he had strong ties to was being attacked by foreign invaders and he took up arms with the rest of his family. there is a reason why children and adults are treated differently when it comes to the law. canada messed up by not following simple, internationally recognized rules on child soldiers by not applying the same rules on omar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 here are children with guns from around the world, who are encouraged, forced and brainwashed by adults to defend whatever belief they want them to: a child soldier in chad. a child soldier in thailand. jewish settler children learning early. the list goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) And? Once a child has been brainwashed to be a hate-filled warrior zealot, they are no longer an innocent youngster. Unfair as it may seem, that's the reality. If he's old enough to have killed somebody on a battlefield, he's old enough to be treated accordingly. Now, personally, I find the whole idea of "legal" and "illegal" combatants to be nonsensical. There is nothing lawful and orderly about war. It's about killing your enemies as efficiently as possible. When one is captured, how one is treated should be based on what one has done. If a combatant is guilty of atrocities or war crimes, of which many terrorists would indeed be guilty, then they should be punished accordingly. If they are thought to have actionable intelligence, then it should be extracted, by means appropriate to its urgency. And if they neither committed war crimes nor have valuable intel, they should be treated like any other war prisoners. For one, they need to be kept locked up until the war is over. Edited October 31, 2011 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 And? Once a child has been brainwashed to be a hate-filled warrior zealot, they are no longer an innocent youngster. Unfair as it may seem, that's the reality. It's a little unreal to imply every single kid is a write-off when child soldiers can be and are being rehabilitated and reintegrated as we speak. According to the international laws that protect them child soldiers are legally innocent, which is what really matters. As for the broader subjective interpretation of the term, if innocence can be lost or damaged then it can also be found and restored. We signed onto those laws up here in Canada by the way. Americans could pick their allies more carefully, but I guess that ship sailed decades ago didn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Jacee: Thanks Army Guy. Your perspectives are important for us to hear.I think we can all agree with your statement I bolded above. And while there are Laws, and conventions on this very topic they are ineffective, and really do nothing to effect the use of children on the battle field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 This is no excuse for despising the kids too.They are not monsters, they are victims who are still in possession of all the innocence they were born with. I don't despise Omar the Child, but rather what he became....And while he may be a victim he is as likely to change his spots as you are to change your mind . In his mind he is right and he is doing the right thing...As for his innocence that has been stolen from him by his family, his peers, the group he decided to join....those years are gone, and won't be coming back...He is now an adult, that has not had the chance to change any of his beliefs or experiences while he has been locked up....just what do you think he is going to do when he his released....He'll return to what he knows.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 it's different. he was motivated by his family and by what he had seen; a country who he had strong ties to was being attacked by foreign invaders and he took up arms with the rest of his family. there is a reason why children and adults are treated differently when it comes to the law. canada messed up by not following simple, internationally recognized rules on child soldiers by not applying the same rules on omar. My piont wsa Eyeball had stated that children follow thier parents wishes without thought of consquences...which is not true, Omars parents had wanted him and his brother to become sucide bombers for the cause and the family, both had refused....knowing that it would mean giving up thier lives....or like the other example telling them to jump off a bridge....they knew it was wrong regardless of what they had been told ot taught via their religion...They just knew... As for him taking up arms again'st invaders, really...Correct me if i m wrong but was it not an AQ element that flew those plnes into the towers. If so we can not act surpirsed when Uncle Sam decided to stomp them into dust....declaring them invaders is a step is it not...They must have known that the US would hold them accountable and come after them..... My piont on treating children differently is this...on the battle field children are treated the same, it is when the fighting has stopped, they are even considered for special treatment if that is what you call it...they are separated from the rest of the prisoners,housed separatily if space allows, then they are treated as any other prisoner, until the conflict is over...they are treated humanily...etc etc...So really there is not alot of protection or laws in place to really make a difference... I was pionting out some of the twisted pionts of the laws and conventions , for instnaced it is ok to shoot them,or blow them up with a F-15E full of 500 pounders, but not to hold them in most cases accountable for crimes they have commited.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 And? Once a child has been brainwashed to be a hate-filled warrior zealot ... I've seen this claim made before about Omar, but can you provide quotes, examples of his "hate-filled warrior zealot" attitudes? I haven't seen evidence of that yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 My piont wsa Eyeball had stated that children follow thier parents wishes without thought of consquences...which is not true, I never stated that. I simply suggested that society shouldn't be surprised when kids do, especially when it encourages them to without clear caveats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noahbody Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 It's a little unreal to imply every single kid is a write-off when child soldiers can be and are being rehabilitated and reintegrated as we speak. Who has the right to rehabilitate him? It's his religious beliefs. There are others who have expressed similar views to Omar Khadr in Canada. Can we insist he no longer have his views, while allowing others to continue to believe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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