bush_cheney2004 Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Be carefull how you word such comments! Why...the very point was to be provocative about this issue. I understand the point you are making but at the same time you sound like you want to commit a violent criminal offence in Canada! I wouldn't be the first person to do so. You could have made your point without a negative misinterpretation if you put a little more thought into them! You managed to figurre it out by yourself....lighten up. Actually I believe if an American citizen was here in Canada and did commit a crime and was given a jail sentence,then yes he/she could be transferred to the US to serve out their sentence there. Why? You will soon have eneough prison space for lots of folks to stay for a while. As far as the criminal picking out which pen. he/she actually gets to serve their term out in? I hope you are kidding.....they should not get to "pick" their pen. Actually I do vaguely remember a case about an American whom was convicted of several murders in Canada(Ng).He was supposed to be sent back to California or somewhere in the US that has the death penalty.But he made some kind of humanitarian plea and for a long time the Canadian government couldn't deport him. Yes...that would be the "hig-a-thug" often referred to around here. The conservative government decided to not bother asking/pressuring the Americans to extradite him to Canada to serve out his sentence.This caused some controversy in parliament since it went against Canadian tradition/policy because we do not believe in the death sentence in Canada.(I believe that this case also started a rumour about the conservatives wanting to bring the death penalty back to Canada!) Gee...that's too bad, because apparently some Canadians still believe in murder! Edited October 26, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 You managed to figurre it out by yourself....lighten up. I hope you are kidding.....they should not get to "pick" their pen. Oh I get it,I'm supposed to understand when "you" are trying to be controversial! But when I add a question mark at the end of a statement its OK for you not to "get it"! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Oh I get it,I'm supposed to understand when "you" are trying to be controversial! But when I add a question mark at the end of a statement its OK for you not to "get it"! But I did "get it", and answered your question in the negative. Plus you didn't use a smiley emoticon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 But I did "get it", and answered your question in the negative. Plus you didn't use a smiley emoticon! Ya you know what buddy your real borderline!On the edge! I'm not going to assume anything about you anymore and take you for what you say from now on. Good luck! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Ya you know what buddy your real borderline!On the edge! I'm not going to assume anything about you anymore and take you for what you say from now on. Good plan, but did you really think I would announce homicidal intentions in a web forum? Plus, I don't even like Canadian eyeballs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Canada has championed the cause of child soldiers in other countries, but there's never been a word about Afghanistan, not even from returning soldiers, to my knowledge. One has to wonder why ... ? Is it somehow different when orphans are kidnapped and forced into service, than when a parent forces a child into service? Omar Khadr was a child soldier, just not a very good onee. I've never seen any reports that he professes to believe in 'the cause', any cause except 'Omar'. His dreams are of being an ordinary Canadian kid. Both the Taliban and Northern Alliance indoctrinated child soldiers. The Child Soldiers The Northern Alliance swears it inducts no soldiers younger than 18 years old. But a visit to the trenches proves that rule unenforced. Zulmai leans against a rusty Russian tank on a hill overlooking the Taliban-controlled city of Taloqan. He is 18 but joined the mujahedin at 15, just as his four brothers did. One brother has already been killed, and Zulmai falters when asked if children should be fighting an adult's war. A Northern Alliance Foreign Ministry official named Musadiqallah steps in:"Our cause is so great that even our children want to join us in fighting the enemy." ... On the opposite side of the front lines, the Taliban also profits from young guns.Taken from their homes before their teens, these kids are steeped in battle tactics and religious fanaticism. War orphans are especially prized by the Taliban because they have no home to which they can escape. By the time they reach adulthood, the mullahs and commanders of the Taliban have become their family. The Taliban insists the extreme measures of jihad require extreme schooling. "Children are innocent, so they are the best tools against dark forces," says a Pakistani Taliban fighter, who was captured by the Northern Alliance last month near Dast-e-Qale. So ... when it's 'foreign' war orphans forced to make war, Canadians sympathize and donate to causes and are appalled. When a Canadian child is forced into conflict by his own father, we villify the child? How shallow is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) a 15 year old is a child and he should be treated as a child. canada fucked up and it continues to fuck up in regards to khadr. Edited October 26, 2011 by bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 I think his crime was in killing an ally of his country, for aiding the enemy. Doesn't that make a difference - the fact that he's a Canadian? I realize that the U.S. is the one who laid charges, but that makes me wonder - why hasn't Canada? I think the government thought if we waited long enough it would blow away and be forgotten Should Canada have laid charges? I think they should, but i highly doubt they will... It doesn't have to be treason charges, but one can't legitimize his actions by saying 'he was killing a soldier in combat which isn't an illegal war crime,' In his case it is illegal to kill anyone as he was an insurgent, What if he had killed a Canadian soldier? Would that have been considered a legitimate act of war? Should it be considered any differently when it's an ally? No it should not and was not be considered any different....Omar changed alot of things for alot of soldiers including Canadians, Soldier are not stupid and watch TV just like the rest of the world...Omar was an insurgent through and through, and the treatment and following he was developing pissed alot of people off.... Aghan is full of very young insurgents "coming of age in Afghan happens at age 11 he becomes a man...by then they have already handled wpns for a few years and know how to handle them...I've always asked why after Omar no other Canadian or US prisoners were taken, i mean there are hundreds over there...but young Omar was the last one to be splashed over the TV...like i said Omar changed things for everyone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 The medic was armed and participating in the combat. In fact the constant referral to Khadr killing a 'medic' has been part of the propaganda game since day one. Sgt.Speers was certainly trained to provide medical assistance when required but he was also a member of the Special Forces and expected to take active part in combat with his weaponry. But the propaganda machine played on his 'medic' part to increase the perception of immorality of khadr's crime.Worked very well too. It may sound like propaganda but it is not, Most medic's while on patrol will not wear Red crosses because it makes them a high valued target remember that at the time that the Taliban and other terrorist org did not sign or agree to follow the rules of war, to them it was a win to kill any high value target becuase of the terror it would create.. The only time i saw medical staff wear their stuff is when they were providing clinics in the villages. hence why they stopped wearing the red cross, they do however carry medical kits which do have the red cross on them, everyone going outside the wire has to be armed with a long barrel, and thinking back even our padre carried one, he never used it but he carried it...So one has to mule this over, a medic could wear all the red and white red crosses , and risk being a high valued target, and be covered under the convention...which is not followed if captured anyways and if the kill the medic just makes whom ever a war criminal if caught....not wear it , not covered , but your armed and can defend yourself....which one would you choose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Army Guy, I'm trying to make sense of your position. - Children can't officially be soldiers, so they are "insurgents" ... ? - "Insurgents" can't make war, under our conventions of same, so what they do is crime, murder. -Child "insurgents" are tried as adults and vilified as adults by adults. Where does being a legal child and being forced into insurgency become a consideration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 We usually treat mentally unstable Canadian kids with therapy and drugs in hospitals not prison camps in legal limbo. Are you saying Omar is mentally unstable, because that is not what his defence team has been saying... There you go again, confusing vengeance with justice. Really justice, spent many hours driving the country side waiting for your veh to blow up, almost every convoy we went out on got blown up atleast once...i can't count how many people i know that have gone through that serveral times...all because little kids like your pal Omar liked planting IED's so ya i have a vested interest in Justice... serving 8 years out of a 40 year sentence is not justice it's a joke... I continue down this road because Khadr was only 8 when he was forced down his. 8 years old. he was 15, he had become a man in Afghan culture 4 years before that, he was a vetern soldier...in Afghan he was a terrorist, he worked for one of the most feared terrorist groups on the planet...and he had been doing it for years, according to since he was 8....Here in Canada he is consider a sweet young boy gone wrong...in Afghan he's a target, a high valued one at that, because he was a bomber...don't tell me i not going to shed any tears over a terroist...tell the widows... ask them what they think of young Omar. So what sort of...healing process...involving deterrence in a mental healthcare context did you have in mind, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, something more Dickensian or would Inquisition era methods be more to your liking? Let me ask you this would you have them over for supper, to share a meal with your family...would you leave them alone with your kids...the child soldiers of africa are broken they can't be fixed....Omar is not the same, he did what he did to impress his family...and when he gets out will be the tale of the tape...my money is he is going to want pay back and is waiting and watching.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 So ... when it's 'foreign' war orphans forced to make war, Canadians sympathize and donate to causes and are appalled.When a Canadian child is forced into conflict by his own father, we villify the child? How shallow is that? Forced into conflict , your shitting me right....his last 2 years of his life he was not even with a family member or relative...he could have walked away at any time...just as thousand do every day...He wanted to be there, or he's a very lazy escape artist....prove to all of us that like the child soldier from Africa he was forced to partake under threat of death....When has Omar told the courts or anyone that he was forced to fight....he looked scared when he recorded that little vidio of his YA that is one scared mother trucker....he wanted to be a terrorist, yes his parents forced him to take the training...but he wanted to be a terrorist and now we should be nice pat him on the head stop villifing him...he is what he is a terrorist...coming to live in a town near you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Army Guy, I'm trying to make sense of your position. - Children can't officially be soldiers, so they are "insurgents" ... ?- "Insurgents" can't make war, under our conventions of same, so what they do is crime, murder. -Child "insurgents" are tried as adults and vilified as adults by adults. Where does being a legal child and being forced into insurgency become a consideration Children can be soldiers, if they follow the conventions and rules of war...even you can be a soldier...when you step outside the rules and conventions then you become an insurgent...anyone any age... Insurgents don't follow the rules of War, break those and yes you commit a crime.... He's 15 , considered a man in the AFghan culture , he already has 7 years training experience and atleast 3 or 4 in combat....he has been charged with some very seriuos crimes, murder, and attempted murder.... You tell me how many children in Canada have been charged with adult crimes and in Adult court...why does that make Omar any differnt and why were you not debating when they got charged or sentenced.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Are you saying Omar is mentally unstable, because that is not what his defence team has been saying... Actually it was you who suggested he was and that such kids need to be reeducated. I assume by reeducation you mean treatment, although it's painfully obvious our notions of what treatment means comes from almost completely different planets. Let me ask you this would you have them over for supper, to share a meal with your family...would you leave them alone with your kids... Perhaps after they'd been 'reeducated' and given a clean bill of mental health, sure. the child soldiers of africa are broken they can't be fixed....Omar is not the same, he did what he did to impress his family...and when he gets out will be the tale of the tape...my money is he is going to want pay back and is waiting and watching... So you're basically so paranoid of kids that any and all that over the age of 8, whether they're African, Afghan or Canadian, they're a potential target. Somebody please tell me our soldiers are evaluated by psychologists before they're sent abroad to defend and represent our values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Children can be soldiers, if they follow the conventions and rules of war... And exactly how do you expect children under the age of 8 to know these rules and distinctions? You tell me how many children in Canada have been charged with adult crimes and in Adult court... Can you cite even one case that involved any other Canadian child who was taught for years by his parents that it was okay to build bombs and kill people? By the way you do realize our society instructs Canadian kids, from about the age of three, to obey their parents don't you? why does that make Omar any differnt and why were you not debating when they got charged or sentenced.... I've got a better question, why shouldn't we treat every other Canadian kid who commits a crime the same way we've treated Omar Khadr? Edited October 26, 2011 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Actually it was you who suggested he was and that such kids need to be reeducated. I assume by reeducation you mean treatment, although it's painfully obvious our notions of what treatment means comes from almost completely different planets No not me , that is what the UN child soldier program is saying try and keep up. So you're basically so paranoid of kids that any and all that over the age of 8, whether they're African, Afghan or Canadian, they're a potential target. Have you done any research on these African child soldiers, you might want to...their problems are not going to just fade away in the night because they're playing in the play ground...PTSD or severe cases of PTSD in a children are that much harder to over come,these are not kids that seen one person killed,or raped but rather hundreds, including thier parents family some have even done this killing themselfs...etc and while they have shown a major come back in these specialized schools in Africa...the violense is still there, and this is after years of re education by some of the top in thier field...these kids are never going to be kids again...never...they may look like kids but underneath they are what someone created them to be... Somebody please tell me our soldiers are evaluated by psychologists before they're sent abroad to defend and represent our values. Every mission.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 these kids are never going to be kids again...never...they may look like kids but underneath they are what someone created them to be... they will never be kids again, but they can be rehabilitated to a certain extent. there are hundreds of stories out there from former child soldiers. i'm not sure where you're trying to go with your posts, but it seems like you're advocating treating child soldiers as adults because they are hopeless and should be treated as such. here is one story out of thousands: A Former Child Soldier Tells His Story here is another: The Story of a Child Soldier canada has an obligation when it comes to child soldiers. they have failed to act on their obligation in regards to khadr. not only that, they also failed to give due process for a canadian citizen. the rule of law should matter to all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 No not me , that is what the UN child soldier program is saying try and keep up. Have you done any research on these African child soldiers, you might want to...their problems are not going to just fade away in the night because they're playing in the play ground...PTSD or severe cases of PTSD in a children are that much harder to over come,these are not kids that seen one person killed,or raped but rather hundreds, including thier parents family some have even done this killing themselfs...etc and while they have shown a major come back in these specialized schools in Africa...the violense is still there, and this is after years of re education by some of the top in thier field...these kids are never going to be kids again...never...they may look like kids but underneath they are what someone created them to be... I'm still left with the sense that you think it's their own damn fault for being abused kids. Are you completely oblivious to the strong impression you leave that you want these kids to suffer even more punishment? Where the fuck is YOUR head at man? Every mission.... We better start re-evaluating our psychologists if that's the case. Speaking of treating PTSD ever heard of this? http://www.thefix.com/content/prescription-lsd?page=all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 And exactly how do you expect children under the age of 8 to know these rules and distinctions? You keep lowering the bar with every post..now it's under 8 years of age...right and wrong is taught at school, at home, by your peers, you name it....most of the conventions are pretty shit simple...made up of values from normal everyday life....how do our kids know whats right and wrong how come they don't kill each other in the school yard.... Can you cite even one case that involved any other Canadian child who was taught for years by his parents that it was okay to build bombs and kill people? By the way you do realize our society instructs Canadian kids, from about the age of three, to obey their parents don't you? your shitting me right, what about in racist families,as one example ... shit Canada's history is full of examples look how we treated the Indians in our country....and deep down we knew it was'nt right... Obey your parents....tell them to go get a big stick so you can beat them with do they obey ? Why ? I've got a better question, why shouldn't we treat every other Canadian kid who commits a crime the same way we've treated Omar Khadr? We do, everyone is held accountable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 I'm still left with the sense that you think it's their own damn fault for being abused kids. Are you completely oblivious to the strong impression you leave that you want these kids to suffer even more punishment? Where the fuck is YOUR head at man? I did not say anything of the kind, i said they should be held acountable for their actions,. whats wrong with that, if one of these 15 years old had killed one of your family members would you be singing the same tune....would you think that 8 years served out of a 40 year sentence was enough, because he was only 15 .... He should be afforded no more attention than any other 15 year old in Canada that has been sentenced to do adult time for adult crimes.... Speaking of treating PTSD ever heard of this? http://www.thefix.co...on-lsd?page=all No it's the first time....PTSD is a very bad mental illiness if it helps then go for it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 i'm not sure where you're trying to go with your posts, but it seems like you're advocating treating child soldiers as adults because they are hopeless and should be treated as such. Thats not what i'm trying to say, My piont is they should be held accountable for their actions....and comparing Omar to one of those African child soldiers is a leap don't you think...Infact i agree with the child soldier act we signed on for , however i do think that Omars case is not the same not even close, as he could have left that portion of his life in the dust years before...but chose to stay... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 He chose to stay? Did he buy his own plane ticket, call up his al-Qaeda buddies and plot this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 ...he never used it Sgt Speers was using it. It was his job - along with being the medic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) I respect your experiences, Army Guy. What you're saying is that you don't agree with the international law that identifies a child soldier as one under 18, correct? IE, regardless of how they became combatants, they're accountable for crimes like murder as if there were no war, though for adults it's war not murder. I'm having a hard time understanding why you hold children MORE accountable than adults. You should know ... Omar was under threat of death by his father, and he knew it: His brother rebelled and his father threatened and then tried to train him as a suicide bomber. Brother ran away at 16. Omar knew what would happen if he rebelled: He'd be 'a martyr' ... a dead one. Eta... I understand he and others like him killed and injured Canadian soldiers and some seemed to revel in it. It's horrible and I'm respectful of the trauma Canadian soldiers like yourself have endured. Omar is a symbol of all that's wrong in Afghanistan and it seems an insult that he's Canadian. You said he could have left it behind years before. Is that realistic? Where does a 10-11-12 year old go? I found the cbc report from his hearing in 2009, the testimony that he couldn't have thrown the grenade. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2008/12/12/khadr-trial.html Lt.-Cmdr. Bill Kuebler told the hearing that the photograph shows Khadr buried under the rubble of a collapsed building at the time the grenade that killed Sgt. Christopher Speer was thrown, proving he could not have thrown it. The Globe and Mail reported that the Col. Patrick Parrish, the military judge in Khadr's case, barred Kuebler from showing the photograph to the media. Kuebler said he wants the soldier who gave a similar account — identified in court documents only as "Soldier No. 2" — to testify at Khadr's Jan. 26 trial. (Didn't happen. All Guantanamo military trials were ordered ended by Obama.) That account differs widely from another report from a soldier that says Khadr was sitting up and moving when the soldier, believing Khadr threw the grenade, shot him twice in the back. Omar's pleaded guilty, as an adult. So his age and whether he did THAT crime are no longer at issue. He is being held accountable. He was shot twice, spent 8 years in Guantanamo and 4 more now. We can't hold him accountable for all of the crimes of Afghanistan. Edited October 27, 2011 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 You keep lowering the bar with every post..now it's under 8 years of age...right and wrong is taught at school, at home, by your peers, you name it.... If he was taken away at age 8 to become a terrorist then according to your logic he presumably learned everything he needed to know to make adult choices before that. most of the conventions are pretty shit simple...made up of values from normal everyday life....how do our kids know whats right and wrong how come they don't kill each other in the school yard.... So wouldn't these conventions include obeying his parents? your shitting me right, what about in racist families,as one example ... shit Canada's history is full of examples look how we treated the Indians in our country....and deep down we knew it was'nt right...Obey your parents....tell them to go get a big stick so you can beat them with do they obey ? Why ? You're not making any sense at all here I'm afraid. We do, everyone is held accountable. Not to the extent that Canadian kids get thrown into extrajudicial prison camps for obeying their parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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