Ontario employees sent memo about "sensitivity" to Muslims.

[BubberMiley]

There aren't enough 's in the world for that.

There will never be enough s in this world.

Edited September 30, 2011 by BubberMiley

[ProducerJeff]

I see a lot of apologists on here who know little or nothing about Ramadan, Islam or religion at all.

There is a reason why we have a separation of church and state. AKA Freedom from Religion.

This simple idea protects the individual from arbitrary moral or ethical decision making by an authoritative body not for the people or by the people but one that answers to a higher, possibly make-believe power.

Telling employees to acocmodate for religious reasons is both an insult and a moral killer in the office. Giving excuse for poor work ethic and bad behaviour simply because of a certain time of year is ridiculous. It also forces the distinction between "Muslim" and the rest of us.

Many of you probably know little about the history of how religion spreads and the actual doctrines of proselytizing found within the Quran or even the Bible.

It is the imperative of all Muslims to convert or destroy the infidel. You might think the Moderate Muslim is somehow exempt from this, but he reads the same book as the fanatics.

The doctrines of faith are incompatible in a secular society and that line MUST remain solid in application. If we allow government control over churches for instance, would constitute a violation of this principle. If we allow lobbying and accommodation simply because of their religion, then we open up a flood gate of terrible consequences.

Being all "nice" and "Politically Correct" is super great double plus good fun, but these religions and cultures care little for you or your "approval". They want to position themselves in a point of power to push their agenda.

Religion should be kept in homes and private facilities that accommodate their brands of discrimination and exclusion. they DO NOT belong in a public facility.

Period.

And those of you who try and be the "cool cucumber" and shrug their shoulders, look back at history and how these kind of events perpetrate and look how individuals with your attitudes of indifference and passiveness have allowed more problems to perpetuate.

[Sir Bandelot]

Great Allah, it's all there under your account name. Maybe you were hacked and someone else wrote it.

Being misunderstood is a daily ritual...

[Sir Bandelot]

Telling employees to acocmodate for religious reasons is both an insult and a moral killer in the office. Giving excuse for poor work ethic and bad behaviour simply because of a certain time of year is ridiculous. It also forces the distinction between "Muslim" and the rest of us.

It is the imperative of all Muslims to convert or destroy the infidel. You might think the Moderate Muslim is somehow exempt from this, but he reads the same book as the fanatics.

The doctrines of faith are incompatible in a secular society and that line MUST remain solid in application. If we allow government control over churches for instance, would constitute a violation of this principle. If we allow lobbying and accommodation simply because of their religion, then we open up a flood gate of terrible consequences.

Being all "nice" and "Politically Correct" is super great double plus good fun, but these religions and cultures care little for you or your "approval". They want to position themselves in a point of power to push their agenda.

Here we go again... is that you Bob?

It might as well be.

My view is that the old way of suppressing human cultural identity in public by the government, or in the workplace for the sake of production needs to be done away with. It's just another form of control, with an agenda all of its own.

This is part of the forced equality that attempts to promote monoculture. The ultimate outcome of such government enforced secularism on a people is, communism. In some countries people are already being forbidden to wear certain clothes in public, for no other reason that to enforce monoculture, eliminate uniqueness. These are the old "new ways".

The new new ways must embrace the rights of individuals over the collective, allow humans beings the right to express themselves from the viewpoint of their religion, culture, heritage. Even in the workplace... we are more than simply units of production to allow wealth to trickle up to some otherwise abstract concept such as a business corporation. The best workplaces will be the ones that have a 'quiet room', where employees can take a break and find themselves for a while, through prayer, meditation or what have you. Even just a place to stretch out and have a nap. The "humanity room", it could be called.

The role of government as authority over the individual needs to be suppressed. NOT human culture needs to be suppressed. The rights of the individual, which is a tangible thing, finite and mortal, must be protected and cherished above all. That should be the greatest role of government.

[ProducerJeff]

Here we go again... is that you Bob?

It might as well be.

My view is that the old way of suppressing human cultural identity in public by the government, or in the workplace for the sake of production needs to be done away with. It's just another form of control, with an agenda all of its own.

This is part of the forced equality that attempts to promote monoculture. The ultimate outcome of such government enforced secularism on a people is, communism. In some countries people are already being forbidden to wear certain clothes in public, for no other reason that to enforce monoculture, eliminate uniqueness. These are the old "new ways".

The new new ways must embrace the rights of individuals over the collective, allow humans beings the right to express themselves from the viewpoint of their religion, culture, heritage. Even in the workplace... we are more than simply units of production to allow wealth to trickle up to some otherwise abstract concept such as a business corporation. The best workplaces will be the ones that have a 'quiet room', where employees can take a break and find themselves for a while, through prayer, meditation or what have you. Even just a place to stretch out and have a nap. The "humanity room", it could be called.

The role of government as authority over the individual needs to be suppressed. NOT human culture needs to be suppressed. The rights of the individual, which is a tangible thing, finite and mortal, must be protected and cherished above all. That should be the greatest role of government.

No not Bob you silly apologist. Simply because I fell that the church MUST remain separate from the State and that religion has no place within the operations of business both private and public, doesn't make me into some bigot or discriminator. how many centuries or tens of millennia has religion oppressed and brutalized humanity? We have an opportunity to turn the tides of the fuel that empowers ideals like nationalism, racism, bigotry etc etc and people like you, shrug your shoulders and try to be... with it and cool, by supporting this.

The problem with your argument that somehow we are oppressing these people is a joke. They would gladly force fed you religious doctrine in a second. I guess the whole accommodation and forced separation (equal by separate) is lost on you eh?

Again you miss the point of keeping a hardline between public and private.

If we are TOLD NOT TO EAT OR DRINK in front of them to accommodate this "equal but separate" idea, this does not bother you?

The world rarely works on an ideal of the supreme individual. People form collectives to push agenda. Their agenda is clear and you supporting it, support the Islamization of western society, why? to be cool.

thumbs up

[Sir Bandelot]

Easy now! No need to get excited... No I don't support Islamicization of society, not at all. Nor do I fear it. There is always some pressure from fundamentalists, of any stripe to try to remove our freedoms. My view is more one of cultural acceptance and tolerance, within broad confines that protect individual rights. If I don't want to be a muslim, the law will protect me from that.

In regards to this memo, I don't think it's being enforced. It's a recommendation to be considerate. But people should be allowed to eat in front of muslims, if they insist on needing to do that. No one should be forced not to eat. I expect Muslims are quite used to it by now, living in a society where Ramadan is not publicly enforced. More likely that moderate muslims (the huge majority) don't really care if they see others eating during their Ramadan.

But what is interesting or even disturbing is how things like this provoke a response in some people who fear that it represents making concessions to Islamic fundamentalism, as though being considerate to people of other cultures means we must somehow become them. That's patently false but shows intolerance is on the rise, mainly by people who are reactionary.

What next, get a gun?

[Oleg Bach]

The government and private enterprise have no buisness in the shoring up of any system of personal belief. Why should what was once a Christian society turned secular grant support through force "sensitivity" training programs? How about we give all Muslim employees courses on how to support and be sensitive to Christians - Jews - atheists and homo-sexuals....They would not go for it - so why should we?

[Black Dog]

No not Bob you silly apologist.

Same shit, different pile.

Simply because I fell that the church MUST remain separate from the State and that religion has no place within the operations of business both private and public, doesn't make me into some bigot or discriminator.

Sigh. A little perspective, please. If we were dealing with real directive from management banning lunch meetings and forcing other concessions from non-Muslim employees, you'd have reason to be upset and I'd be right there with you.

But that's not what we are dealing with here.

how many centuries or tens of millennia has religion oppressed and brutalized humanity? We have an opportunity to turn the tides of the fuel that empowers ideals like nationalism, racism, bigotry etc etc

And stopping people from praying at work will do this? Amazing!

Again you miss the point of keeping a hardline between public and private.

If we are TOLD NOT TO EAT OR DRINK in front of them to accommodate this "equal but separate" idea, this does not bother you?

It would bother me if anyone was being told not to eat and drink in front of them. But nobody is.

[ProducerJeff]

Same shit, different pile.

Sigh. A little perspective, please. If we were dealing with real directive from management banning lunch meetings and forcing other concessions from non-Muslim employees, you'd have reason to be upset and I'd be right there with you.

But that's not what we are dealing with here.

And stopping people from praying at work will do this? Amazing!

Again you miss the point of keeping a hardline between public and private.

It would bother me if anyone was being told not to eat and drink in front of them. But nobody is.

interesting. You must be one of those contrarian types. Do you actually have an opinion or you just randomly like to contradict things for the sake of contradiction?

Clearly you've never worked in a corporation. these "memos" always boil down to politics and will be enforced in one capacity or another. it may not be an official mandate, but the directive is clear.

In my wife's work, they had a similar memo and have been "spoken too" once violating these "recommendations." It has affected me personally by seeing how outraged she is.

You really should stop sitting on a fence and blindly defending actions that have always opened doors for further real discrimination.

Don't think it will happen? I can link you to thousands of such articles and events in human history that start off so innocuous and innocent like this.

Don't forget the roots of Nazism and the party that formed came from bad sci fi, underground orgies and a general dislike of one or two groups of people. It doesn't take much to organize groups and religion has done a great job at that.

Assuming "everyone should love each other" and not acting when clearly a violation of both the Charter of Rights and basic principles of Democracy happen, is blind.

as for dismissing what I wrote by claiming it will solve all our worldly ills by stopping prayer, i never said that. i think its clear it's the direction we need to take. people can pray all they want at work, just dont mandate it. dont create apartheid situations and don't create a divisive environment. You're step back and see approach is exactly how special interests and lobbyist get power, simply by people like you.

[Guest American Woman]

Great Allah, it's all there under your account name. Maybe you were hacked and someone else wrote it. Yeah, that's the ticket....

Or perhaps you're claiming I said something that I never did! Yes, by George. THAT'S IT!!

:rolleyes:

[ProducerJeff]

Same shit, different pile.

Sigh. A little perspective, please. If we were dealing with real directive from management banning lunch meetings and forcing other concessions from non-Muslim employees, you'd have reason to be upset and I'd be right there with you.

But that's not what we are dealing with here.

And stopping people from praying at work will do this? Amazing!

Again you miss the point of keeping a hardline between public and private.

It would bother me if anyone was being told not to eat and drink in front of them. But nobody is.

Same shit different pile eh? sad little man.

[Black Dog]

interesting. You must be one of those contrarian types. Do you actually have an opinion or you just randomly like to contradict things for the sake of contradiction?

Well, noob, you can always read the damn thread and my posting history and find out for yourself.

Clearly you've never worked in a corporation. these "memos" always boil down to politics and will be enforced in one capacity or another.

Actually, in my many years working for the government, bullshit memos that were never enforced were far more common than any other.

Had someone been forced to comply here, I'd expect somebody would have come forward somewhere to complain publicly. But this didn't hit the papers until Ramadan was already over.

it may not be an official mandate, but the directive is clear.

Which part, exactly?

In my wife's work, they had a similar memo and have been "spoken too" once violating these "recommendations." It has affected me personally by seeing how outraged she is.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

You really should stop sitting on a fence and blindly defending actions that have always opened doors for further real discrimination.

Ah yes, the old slipperly slope.

Don't think it will happen? I can link you to thousands of such articles and events in human history that start off so innocuous and innocent like this.

First they came for the Timbits...

Don't forget the roots of Nazism and the party that formed came from bad sci fi, underground orgies and a general dislike of one or two groups of people.

Uh...what?

Assuming "everyone should love each other" and not acting when clearly a violation of both the Charter of Rights and basic principles of Democracy happen, is blind.

First off: I'm not assuming "everyone should love each other". I'd settle for civility. As for the rest, well, if this is as you say, I look forward to your (and your wife's) court challenge.

as for dismissing what I wrote by claiming it will solve all our worldly ills by stopping prayer, i never said that. i think its clear it's the direction we need to take. people can pray all they want at work, just dont mandate it.

Thank goodness no one is mandating prayer.

dont create apartheid situations and don't create a divisive environment.

If I was eating lunch, and a Muslim co-workers asked me to put down my sammich because they're fasting, I'd probably take the opportunity to discuss the rights and responsibilities of co-workers and the limits of accommodation. I wouldn't fly off the handle and scream about Nazis and Islamification and other such silliness. That's how divisive environments are actually created.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Black Dog

[Shwa]

...Don't forget the roots of Nazism and the party that formed...

Godwin's Law invoked a mere three posts in. Beauty eh?

Is this some sort of MLW record?

<- me being totally cool.

[Shwa]

Or perhaps you're claiming I said something that I never did! Yes, by George. THAT'S IT!!

I am not claiming anything, except where you posted.

So you are off the mark. Again.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Shwa

[Guest American Woman]

I am not claiming anything, except where you posted.

So you are off the mark. Again.

Good God. If this isn't against the rules, it should be. I've told you repeatedly that I did not say what you claim I said. Keep repeating your false claim if you must - I have better things to do with my time that point out your lie every time you repeat it - which will obviously be until the end of time if I keep refuting it. So have your way. And while you're at it, go to hell.

But do have a nice day.

[Shwa]

Good God. If this isn't against the rules, it should be. I've told you repeatedly that I did not say what you claim I said. Keep repeating your false claim if you must - I have better things to do with my time that point out your lie every time you repeat it - which will obviously be until the end of time if I keep refuting it. So have your way. And while you're at it, go to hell.

But do have a nice day.

Great Allah, you are touchy. That should be against the forum rules. If you can't follow the discussion, don't jump on other posters for your misgivings.

Others should be made aware of your over-sensitivity. By way of a memo...

Edited September 30, 2011 by Shwa

[ProducerJeff]

Well, noob, you can always read the damn thread and my posting history and find out for yourself.

Actually, in my many years working for the government, bullshit memos that were never enforced were far more common than any other.

Had someone been forced to comply here, I'd expect somebody would have come forward somewhere to complain publicly. But this didn't hit the papers until Ramadan was already over.

Which part, exactly?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Ah yes, the old slipperly slope.

First they came for the Timbits...

Uh...what?

First off: I'm not assuming "everyone should love each other". I'd settle for civility. As for the rest, well, if this is as you say, I look forward to your (and your wife's) court challenge.

Thank goodness no one is mandating prayer.

If I was eating lunch, and a Muslim co-workers asked me to put down my sammich because they're fasting, I'd probably take the opportunity to discuss the rights and responsibilities of co-workers and the limits of accommodation. I wouldn't fly off the handle and scream about Nazis and Islamification and other such silliness. That's how divisive environments are actually created.

hey man, you can sit around and pick your ass not bothering or caring for the sake of political correctness.

You can encourage the spread of religious influence in government, in fact I encourage you too. People like me who want to draw a hard line between public and private aren't the bad guys. It's when people like you who do nothing and say nothing allow fanatics on both sides of the fence to propagate.

Europe is a gorgeous example of oh simpleton apologists like you have allowed and foster the propagate hate because you don't want to "offend".

Moonbats like you think that you're being clever trying to "open dialogue" but in reality you're just being mocked. Men like Tarek Fatah know the importance of drawing that line.

As for my wife and you not "buying it". Doesn't matter if you do or don't. I couldn't actually care. My point is clear, you live in some fairytale of the possible. That's nice and all, but it doesn't really solve the on going issues of cultural disparity.

BTW Islamification is a real issue and a real problem going on around the world. But, you think having an open dialogue with help stem the issue or something.

ok...

[Shwa]

hey man, ...

Now who's trying to be "cool" eh Mr. Godwins Law?

Here is a link for you, since you seem to be remiss in a few areas.

CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS

"Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:"

When you launch your constitutional challenge to have that opening line changed, let us know will ya? It'll be good for a laugh.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Shwa

[Black Dog]

hey man, you can sit around and pick your ass not bothering or caring for the sake of political correctness.

You can encourage the spread of religious influence in government, in fact I encourage you too. People like me who want to draw a hard line between public and private aren't the bad guys. It's when people like you who do nothing and say nothing allow fanatics on both sides of the fence to propagate

It's called picking your battles sunshine. As much as it may please you to think of yourself as a brave warrior on the front lines of the fight against Islamisim, you're just a guy getting his ginch in a knot for nothing. Save your energy for real problems is my advice.

Moonbats like you think that you're being clever trying to "open dialogue" but in reality you're just being mocked.

By whom? The vast invisible conspiracy or Muslims IT dudes?

As for my wife and you not "buying it". Doesn't matter if you do or don't. I couldn't actually care.

And yet you brought it up like it was a legit data point. Cool story bro.

My point is clear, you live in some fairytale of the possible. That's nice and all, but it doesn't really solve the on going issues of cultural disparity.

And being an internet keyboard warrior does? Or do you have a Human Rights complaint in the hopper? Can't wait!

BTW Islamification is a real issue and a real problem going on around the world. But, you think having an open dialogue with help stem the issue or something.

ok...

You're right. We all need to stomp our feet on teh internet!

[Bob]

Easy now! No need to get excited... No I don't support Islamicization of society, not at all. Nor do I fear it. There is always some pressure from fundamentalists, of any stripe to try to remove our freedoms. My view is more one of cultural acceptance and tolerance, within broad confines that protect individual rights. If I don't want to be a muslim, the law will protect me from that.

In regards to this memo, I don't think it's being enforced. It's a recommendation to be considerate. But people should be allowed to eat in front of muslims, if they insist on needing to do that. No one should be forced not to eat. I expect Muslims are quite used to it by now, living in a society where Ramadan is not publicly enforced. More likely that moderate muslims (the huge majority) don't really care if they see others eating during their Ramadan.

But what is interesting or even disturbing is how things like this provoke a response in some people who fear that it represents making concessions to Islamic fundamentalism, as though being considerate to people of other cultures means we must somehow become them. That's patently false but shows intolerance is on the rise, mainly by people who are reactionary.

What next, get a gun?

The fact that you equate the adjustment of behaviour, such as not eating in a group meeting atmosphere for a month while some Muslims fast in order not to tempt them with the smell of food, with being consider, is exactly why Canada is finished. Eventually, as the number of Muslims continues to grow as they out-reproduce you, you won't have a choice in the matter.

[Machjo]

Why are we adjusting to their needs? If your prayer needs interfere with your job requirements, perhaps it's time to look for another job. This is just another example in the West's capitulation to inferior societies and ideologies. In the long-term, unless we can stand up and assert our superiority, we're finished.

What's the maximum percentage of the population you're willing to accept in Canada to be Muslim?

fully agreed. Haver you noticed too how we bend over backwards to close schools and government offices on Sundays, legislate Christian Holy Days as statutory holidays, etc.

Just pathetic.

[Machjo]

It's a continuum of accommodating religion in Ontario's public school system.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/public-schools-cannot-be-places-of-prayer/article2091850/

Keep religion out of public schools. Why is that so hard to do?

You bet it's hard to do. Just try to give schools more leeway to decide their own schooldays, or to openm on Sundays or statutory holidays, etc.

[Scotty]

In any case, the Conservative government isn't really don't much to stop the trend so it seems we have an entirely mainstream foundation of support for Canada's policies on immigration and MC.

Its certainly mainstream in that the media, academia and cultural elites all support it. I rarely meet anyone else who does, particularly on immigration. Even immigrants think our system is stupid. After all, they're here now, and like the rest of us don't like so many undesirables flooding in.

[Scotty]

No the left screams racism and bigotry when they see racism and bigotry.

And they see it everywhere except in their own ranks.

[Scotty]

No, you shouldn't. No more than I could walk into your meditation/yoga room and start praying.

I don't get the sense from your posts that you're much of a team player. People who make problems for others continually should be rewarded with a separation package... they're so much easier to deal with when they're gone.

That pretty much lets out anyone who believes in innovation and new ideas, and leaves behind dull, bureaucratic drudges who just plod along, doing the same thing over and over....