Is the canadian left anti-Semitic

[Bob]

Funny how you glean all of that from me stating a single fact without any value statement attached to it.

Do you think that was the first post of yours I've ever read? If my description of your motivation for posting that detail (of Iran having a designated Jewish component to its government and giving some independence to the Jewish community) is wrong, feel free to correct me. Why did you mention that detail?

[Battletoads]

Yeah.... just another example of why people like you should talk less about this subject and pay more attention. This question reveals your massive ignorance of Israel.

I'm just asking for you/someone to clear up what your fellow right wing nuts keep telling me.

[eyeball]

Dude...do you think Canada was any different?

I do, especially in light of the comprehensive land-claim and treaty settlement my neighbours up the road signed this year.

[jacee]

I certainly wouldn't describe the left as anti-Semitic, but the left certainly has been the torch-bearer of anti-Semitism for many decades - far outpacing the right.

It's a multifaceted issue, and it's something I'm quite certain we've talked about in reasonable depth on MLW, before. To put it simply, the contemporary left in Canada and the USA are reflexively anti-Israel for many reasons, which makes them anti-Semitic either through ignorance (most likely) or through malice.

...

It's this sort of reflexive cheering for the underdog, where the "Palestinians" are incorrectly seen as oppressed losers in a conflict where they don't have a "fair chance", rather than realizing that they are a part of broader inferior, violent, misogynistic, deeply religious and hate-filled society (the broader Arab-Muslim world) that shouldn't elicit the compassion of any freedom loving individual.

That's my two cents.

If Canadian 'leftists' are anti-semitic or anti-Jew for opposing Israel's aggression against Palestinians ...

What do you call Canadian Jewish leftists who do the same?

What do you call Israeli Jewish leftists who do the same?

Are you the official arbiter of how Jews must act and think to be considered 'good Jews'?

How many 'good Jews' are there in Israel, Bob?

I've heard that over 60% of Israelis support Palestinian independence.

[bush_cheney2004]

I do, especially in light of the comprehensive land-claim and treaty settlement my neighbours up the road signed this year.

That's swell...I look forward to the new nation in British Columbia and recognition by the UN!

Edited September 19, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Bob]

That's swell...I look forward to the new nation in British Columbia and recognition by the UN!

You know, although I wouldn't draw parallels between the circumstance for Aboriginal/First Nations and the "Palestinians", the truth is the "Palestinians" have much more autonomy/sovereignty/independence than the Aboriginals/First Nations. Although I have little sympathy for the perceived "plight" of the Aboriginals/First Nations in Canada (and the USA), the "Palestinians" probably outperform Aboriginals/First Nations on certain barometers (i.e. higher levels of educational attainment and lower rates of drug addiction/alcoholism). Although, to be fair, outperforming Aboriginals/First Nations isn't really that hard to do.

The idea that somehow Canada has the moral high ground on this issue, if you accept the parallels between the situations for Aboriginals/First Nations in Canada and the "Palestinians" in Israel and the territories (and I don't accept that parallel), is quite silly. Israel goes to much greater lengths to accommodate the "Palestinians" than Canada does towards the Aboriginals/First Nations, but of course the circumstances are different.

[Bob]

I'm just asking for you/someone to clear up what your fellow right wing nuts keep telling me.

No, it's more entertaining to continue to enjoy you wallow in ignorance as you try to describe Israel as some sort of theocracy or "religious state". I'd rather not waste my time trying to inform you, you're more fun just the way you are. Please don't ever change.

[GostHacked]

No, it's more entertaining to continue to enjoy you wallow in ignorance as you try to describe Israel as some sort of theocracy or "religious state". I'd rather not waste my time trying to inform you, you're more fun just the way you are. Please don't ever change.

If Israel is not a religious state, then it is not a Jewish state. If it IS a Jewish state (which you claim it is) then yes, it is indeed a religious state.

[jbg]

Now now Argus, I've had countless right wing kooks tell me Israel is a secular democracy. Many Israelis also make that claim. How is a secular state a religious state?

In terms of formation it is a Jewish state, but non-Jews have full civil and religious rights. Other than with regard to military service and immigration, non-Jews are equal.

In Islamic states, non-Muslim houses of worship have to be lower in terms of their roofs, non-Muslims have to pay a special tax, and submit to different rules and regulations.

[Bob]

In terms of formation it is a Jewish state, but non-Jews have full civil and religious rights. Other than with regard to military service and immigration, non-Jews are equal.

This should change.

in Islamic states, non-Muslim houses of worship have to be lower in terms of their roofs, non-Muslims have to pay a special tax, and submit to different rules and regulations.

Or, they just terrorize the minorities through mass murder campaigns and expulsions. It's a lot easier to have "equality" for the minority on paper if you virtually remove the minority.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Bob

[GostHacked]

Some of you need to be aware that it is possible to support Jews AND Muslims, and also to support Israel and a Palestinian state. Turning these things into dualisms is the work of propagandists and only serves to perpetuate the conflicts in the Middle East.

But that would not fit their argument. It has to be one sided or the other, there cannot be any compromise.

[Bob]

If Israel is not a religious state, then it is not a Jewish state. If it IS a Jewish state (which you claim it is) then yes, it is indeed a religious state.

See, it's comments like this that regularly illustrate your inability to comprehend political and social concepts. If I'm Jewish and I'm not religious... am I a contradiction? Or perhaps, I don't even exist? Maybe I'm from some sort of alternate universe?

[GostHacked]

See, it's comments like this that regularly illustrate your inability to comprehend political and social concepts.

I understand much. I understand you don't represent all Jews, which is a great thing. If that was the case, it would not be that hard to understand why people dislike or even hate Jews. Being a hateful person yourself. Something you cannot deny here since you joined MLW.

If I'm Jewish and I'm not religious... am I a contradiction? Or perhaps, I don't even exist? Maybe I'm from some sort of alternate universe?

Self-hating Jew? Even your kind discriminates against the moderates of Judaism.

[g_bambino]

If Israel is not a religious state, then it is not a Jewish state. If it IS a Jewish state (which you claim it is) then yes, it is indeed a religious state.

The word "Jewish" is very loosely defined.

[Black Dog]

The word "Jewish" is very loosely defined.

So too, apparently, is the word "anti-semitism."

[Bob]

The word "Jewish" is very loosely defined.

Not really.

[jbg]

In terms of formation it is a Jewish state, but non-Jews have full civil and religious rights. Other than with regard to military service and immigration, non-Jews are equal.

This should change.

Why?

In Islamic states, non-Muslim houses of worship have to be lower in terms of their roofs, non-Muslims have to pay a special tax, and submit to different rules and regulations.

Or, they just terrorize the minorities through mass murder campaigns and expulsions. It's a lot easier to have "equality" for the minority on paper if you virtually remove the minority.

I was referring to dhimmitude in the classic sense.

In the case of Iran while there is some unfairness to Jews, on balance they seemed to be allowed to exist as dhimmis, and are not subject to slaughter. The same was true, within limits, for Egyptian Copts, at least until Mubarak's authority began to dwindle.

It is true, as you observe, that Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Libya and other countries expelled their Jewish communities after Israel declared independence in 1948. The sheer number of people posed a practical barrier to re-admission of what were then called "Arab Refugees".

[g_bambino]

Not really.

Really:

The definition of who is a Jew [i.e. Jewish] varies according to whether it is being considered by Jews based on normative religious statutes, self-identification, or by non-Jews for other reasons. Because Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion, and citizenship, the definition of who is a Jew has varied, depending on whether a religious, sociological, or ethnic aspect was being considered. The issue has given rise to legal controversy, especially in Israel, but also outside of Israel.

Who is a Jew?

[g_bambino]

So too, apparently, is the word "anti-semitism."

Nowadays, yes.

[Bob]

Really:

You think Wikipedia has anything to offer me on that question?

I was discussing that question with peers long before Wikipedia came around. Jewish identity is not loosely defined, it's just been obfuscated by many people and many groups for political purposes (primarily our enemies have sought to create such confusion for anti-Israel/anti-Semitic political purposes).

[g_bambino]

You think Wikipedia has anything to offer me on that question?

Yes. And if not Wikipedia itself, then the sources from which its contents are drawn.

Jewish identity [has] just been obfuscated by many people and many groups for political purposes.

It's loosely defined, yes.

[Bob]

If Judaism is loosely defined, than so is every other ethnic and/or religious identity.

[Black Dog]

If Judaism is loosely defined, than so is every other ethnic and/or religious identity.

And that's supposed to help your argument?

[bush_cheney2004]

....The idea that somehow Canada has the moral high ground on this issue, if you accept the parallels between the situations for Aboriginals/First Nations in Canada and the "Palestinians" in Israel and the territories (and I don't accept that parallel), is quite silly. Israel goes to much greater lengths to accommodate the "Palestinians" than Canada does towards the Aboriginals/First Nations, but of course the circumstances are different.

Of course the circumstances are different...Canada (and the USA) have successfully subjugated and normalized the conquest of "aboriginals".

[GostHacked]

If Judaism is loosely defined, than so is every other ethnic and/or religious identity.

That does seem to be the case. We have several denominations of Christianity as is the same in Islam. Not all sects within a major religion agree with each other about what the religion's beliefs should entail. So it is very difficult at best to paint them all the same. Judaism is no different.

There are more gray areas than you care to acknowledge, because that would totally negate the left-right, black-white stance you are trying to argue from.