g_bambino Posted September 17, 2011 Report Posted September 17, 2011 Apparently the membership of the Baron Black of Crossharbour (AKA Conrad Black) in the Order of Canada is under review: The Governor-General's office confirmed Wednesday afternoon that it is reviewing his award. "The matter regarding Conrad Black has been brought to the attention of the Advisory Council of the Order of Canada," said Marie-Pierre Belanger in the Governor-General's office. Governor-General weighs stripping Conrad Black of his Order of Canada Only members of the Order of Canada who are convicted of a crime in a Canadian court are automatically dismissed; so Black's conviction in the US is technically meaningless. However, appointment to the Order of Canada is an honour from the sovereign, and, as such, the integrity of the order needs protected. Regardless of where Black was convicted, he's still a criminal. Though, complicating matters further is the questionable nature of Black's conviction itself; many think it was revenge, rather than justice. The Order of Canada Advisory Council faces a tough decision. I can see both sides of the argument. But, personally, I think he should be allowed to stay on the order's rolls. His crime was not heinous, and, beyond the personal, those who manage the Order of Canada should avoid even the vaguest suspicion of bending to political or even popular will. The Order of Canada operates apart from parliament and the Cabinet, and membership in it recognises a person whose achievements have benefitted Canada, rather than it being a popularity contest. Quote
Battletoads Posted September 17, 2011 Report Posted September 17, 2011 If it were any other foreign criminal would there even be a discussion? Quote "You can lead a Conservative to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
William Ashley Posted September 17, 2011 Report Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) I wrote a note intended to reach B. McLachlan on this. I am firmly disgusted that the US justice system is in anyway considered for "The Order of Canada". It was a sham process that ruined a good '' person'' If it (the ongoing events) was such a national interest to Canada they should have extradited him, not put him up in a farce judicial process that even refuted almost all the sham charges levied against him. It seems they hooked the remaining simply to keep him criminal, lest it be an absolute hufa due to wrongful imprisonment and 10's of millions of dollars (if not 100's of millions of dollars' in damages. It is an injustice what Lord Black has been put through. Canada doesn't even consider the equivolent criminal, and the charges don't exist in Canada. I get a bulb of illness in my stomach when I seek to vomit all over the process and how misguided the order could be to even consider a removal of a Canadian honour for a farse process within the US. Edited September 17, 2011 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
g_bambino Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Posted September 17, 2011 If it were any other foreign criminal would there even be a discussion? Yes. Quote
msj Posted September 17, 2011 Report Posted September 17, 2011 I am neither a friend of Conrad Black's nor have I read any of the court rulings in detail so I am in no position to venture an opinion of whether or not his conviction is a "sham." I generally trust the US justice system even though I may not agree with many aspects of it (too much capital punishment). With certain exceptions, waterboarding and Guantanamo Bay for example, their system gets it right more often than not. I prefer to look at the OoC from the point of view of if I were a recipient, or a potential recipient, would I want to be included in an order that includes the likes of Conrad Black? For me: not a chance. Neither would I accept such an "honour" until they kick out Drabinsky, too. But then, I do not consider white collar crimes as lightly as most people appear to do - and this is where I agree with the US justice system. Conrad never would have been convicted in Canada and that is a sad criticism of our "justice" system. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Rick Posted September 17, 2011 Report Posted September 17, 2011 Yes. It shouldn't be.He should have had it stripped from him the day he renounced his Canadian citizenship. Quote “This is all about who you represent,” Mr. Dewar (NDP) said. “We’re (NDP) talking about representing the interests of working people and everyday Canadians and they [the Conservatives] are about representing the fund managers who come in and fleece our companies and our country. Voted Maple Leaf Web's 'Most Outstanding Poster' 2011
g_bambino Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Posted September 17, 2011 He should have had it stripped from him the day he renounced his Canadian citizenship. Why? He was a citizen when the appointment was made and there's nothing in the order's constitution that says a member's name must be removed from the rolls should that individual cease to be a citizen. Quote
Battletoads Posted September 17, 2011 Report Posted September 17, 2011 Yes. Oh, why is that? Why should we be letting foreign thieves degrade what is supposed to be one of Canada's highest honors? Quote "You can lead a Conservative to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
capricorn Posted September 17, 2011 Report Posted September 17, 2011 Why? He was a citizen when the appointment was made and there's nothing in the order's constitution that says a member's name must be removed from the rolls should that individual cease to be a citizen. There's also the matter that he was tried, not in Canada, but in the US. Who's to say whether he would have been found guilty, let alone charged, in Canada under Canadian law? Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
g_bambino Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Posted September 17, 2011 Oh, why is that? Why should we be letting foreign thieves degrade what is supposed to be one of Canada's highest honors? The question to which I answered "yes" was not "should foreign theives be degrading what is supposed to be one of Canada's highest honours?" It was whether or not the same discussion would be taking place had this been another individual in Black's position. Quote
g_bambino Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Posted September 17, 2011 I prefer to look at the OoC from the point of view of if I were a recipient, or a potential recipient, would I want to be included in an order that includes the likes of Conrad Black? That's definitely a way to approach this. Membership in an order is an ongoing thing; it is not a one-of gift, like a decoration or a medal. Since Black is unique both in the fact that he was a citizen when appointed to the order, but no longer is, and was convicted in a US court, not a Canadian one, the decision of whether or not to remove him from the Order of Canada's rolls is entirely discretionary. But, then, so is admission to the order in the first place. Assuming he'd never renounced his citizenship, would he now be deemed by the Advisory Council as worthy of the honour of appointment into the order? Quote
treehugger Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) I like Black even though he is an arrogant man, he just makes me laugh with his personal statements. But he has been through enough for what the crime was supposed to be. He knew he was on camera while removing his personal boxes so he said, he spoke to the camera and stated that, but the sound wasn't on. This is all overdone because of who he is. He is extremely well educated and his knowledge is of good use to people. leave him be. And if he had a trial in Canada we don't know what would have happened. Edited September 19, 2011 by treehugger Quote
August1991 Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) I prefer to look at the OoC from the point of view of if I were a recipient, or a potential recipient, would I want to be included in an order that includes the likes of Conrad Black?For me: not a chance. Neither would I accept such an "honour" until they kick out Drabinsky, too. That's an interesting perspective. The old Henny Youngman joke is that he would never join a club that would have him as a member. Here the criteria seems to be whether to join a club that has one specific member. For example, I travel abroad with my Canadian passport even though I know that Garth Drabinsky (and Margaret Atwood for that matter) do too. Should I renounce my citizenship?Mick Jagger and Elton John were knighted. Is it reason to decline a knighthood because one disagrees with the morals of Sir Reginald Dwight? IMHO, Mackenzie King rightly stopped this nonsense of accepting foreign titles. We should hardly start it all over again here. After all, we all know that these titles are bought and paid for: Lord Black of Crossharbour and Mick Jagger being prime examples. So I guess that I am questioning the existence of an Order of Canada. Why bother? Edited September 28, 2011 by August1991 Quote
Michael Hardner Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 That's an interesting perspective. The old Henny Youngman joke is that he would never join a club that would have him as a member. That was Groucho. Forgive my picky correction here but Groucho needs more credit than he gets. So I guess that I am questioning the existence of an Order of Canada. Why bother? Given the times we're in, and the change we've seen, I'd be in favour of a top-to-bottom redesign of how our government works to bring it up to date, make it less bureaucratic, less formal, lower overhead and more responsive. A complete overhaul not seen since Trudeau. This would require a wrecking ball and a soft voice. The only politician with the ability and the skill to do that in recent memory would be Stephen Harper. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Oleg Bach Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 The lawyer who drew up the Order Of Canada was one of the sons of one of the men that used to be Conrads mentor ....This issue might just be a family affair. Conrad is probably one of the most aware and intelligent Canadians we have - I often wonder why his real peers and real superiours in Canada maintained such silence through out the last few years regarding his conviction - and let me remind you - If Conrad had done in Canada what he alledgedly did in the states - he would have served no jail time......I say let the guy have his little medal - after all YOU gave Henry Morgantaler an Order Of Canada after he single handedly destroyed our gene pool....Morgantaler the lunitic should have been sent away to do time...but no - fools exaulted this little jerk who stated "unwanted children become concentration camp guards" In other words kill the Nazis before they are born - what a crazy reason to promote the aborted existance of needed leadership. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 It shouldn't be. He should have had it stripped from him the day he renounced his Canadian citizenship. Some Native leader stated that he did not like some Jews that he imagined were destroying Canadian society and they stripped him of his metal. So if you or I were to say that we did not like or approve of Jamacian gang bangers at Jane and Finch - then we should be persecuted formally also? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 ...and let me remind you - If Conrad had done in Canada what he alledgedly did in the states - he would have served no jail time...... Sure...only Canadian law and convictions are to be taken seriously. Canadians on death row in the United States are really good 'ol boys who would be free in Canada! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 Sure...only Canadian law and convictions are to be taken seriously. Canadians on death row in the United States are really good 'ol boys who would be free in Canada! The corporate sytem can not be compared to the street level mayhem you are talking about - the point I made was under the law...we do not put away corporate heads of state...maybe you do to set an example and create the illusion that you have a fair playing field - we in Canada do not have public corporate hangings to appease the little guy. Hangings that create the foolish idea that even the rich are accountable - the rich are not accountable here. We are honest when it comes to dealing with our powerful and shifty characters - we know who they are - they run the place and we protect them - we do not partake in human sacrafice on the corporate level...our established Mafia are truely established...yours are a little more disloyal...so what was it like taking down one of our white rhinos? Quote
Oleg Bach Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 Finally Conrad understands that courts that he used to support are nothing but a nest of snakes - I will be happy when he is home with his new and improved attitude - I can see why some don't want the guy in Canada - he might just clean up some of the self serving corruption that exists on the higher levels...I like the guy - at least he can think - I believe people hate him because he is smart - that is so frinking socialist and weasily - the weak hate the strong and bright - yet they need them to hold the system together - Conrad is a hero. Quote
g_bambino Posted September 28, 2011 Author Report Posted September 28, 2011 IMHO, Mackenzie King rightly stopped this nonsense of accepting foreign titles. We should hardly start it all over again here. After all, we all know that these titles are bought and paid for: Lord Black of Crossharbour and Mick Jagger being prime examples.So I guess that I am questioning the existence of an Order of Canada. Why bother? What are you talking about? The Order of Canada has nothing to do with British peerage titles or foreign honours of any kind. Quote
g_bambino Posted September 28, 2011 Author Report Posted September 28, 2011 Given the times we're in, and the change we've seen, I'd be in favour of a top-to-bottom redesign of how our government works to bring it up to date, make it less bureaucratic, less formal, lower overhead and more responsive. A complete overhaul not seen since Trudeau. What's the relevance to the Order of Canada? Quote
Oleg Bach Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 What's the relevance to the Order of Canada? The Order is a pat on the head...for a job well done. Nothing wrong with showing respect to a loyal dog. Conrad was not disloyal to Canada - Chretian was! Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 ...we do not put away corporate heads of state...maybe you do to set an example and create the illusion that you have a fair playing field - we in Canada do not have public corporate hangings to appease the little guy.... You don't "put away" much of anybody, including murderers. I don't know why you worship the corporate turd in Mr. Black, but you have your reasons. Ain't nuthin' special about another convicted criminal to me. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 You don't "put away" much of anybody, including murderers. I don't know why you worship the corporate turd in Mr. Black, but you have your reasons. Ain't nuthin' special about another convicted criminal to me. I am not the idol worshipper - you are - Black is just a common guy. You are too common to realize that you are as good as any corporate billionare....kick it up a notch and give yourself a break BC - I have total respect for you - you should have the same for yourself - In my view - YOU are a king...act like one...The people that convicted Black were just jealous peasants. As for my reasons...It is Black and his true peers that hold our banking system together...and as you know they did a damned good job...that is what is important - not skimming off a little cash to impress your wife to get a blow job- that was Conrads only mistake - his only weakness - sex and his woman. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted September 28, 2011 Report Posted September 28, 2011 What's the relevance to the Order of Canada? I don't know exactly, but medal ceremonies and the like seem like vestiges of the past to me. They're a sap on our resources and our imagination maybe. We should focus on things that matter to people. I don't have a strong opinion on that, but I do have an opinion. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
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