Do Canadians feel safer?

[Guest Derek L]

They were very proficient before being disarmed.

All airline pilots? Many are ex-air force or currently serving with the ANG/Reserves, but no multi-engine American or Canadian air force personal get the same level of small arms training as RCMP/ATF/US Marshall service/FBI etc……….let alone training in the use of a firearm in such a confined space.

WHY?

Why don't the windows roll down in a airline? A Taser is just as effective in stoping a person and a .22 LR is a subsonic, low velocity round.

[Guest Derek L]

WHY?

Which one looks deadlier to you? Can you tell the difference? Ones used by the FBI, the other won’t punch holes through a plane.

#1

#2

Edited September 9, 2011 by Derek L

[Argus]

Though that is possible, I’d think what threat that keeps security services up at night, would be more along the lines of terrorists going into a crowded mall, school or subway/bus with automatic weapons and a explosive vest……….In my view, that would be a lot easier and more effective in terms of creating terror……..look at Israel.

Hell, never mind a crowded mall. How about just driving a dump truck right through here.

[Guest Derek L]

Hell, never mind a crowded mall. How about just driving a dump truck right through here.

Or a sports event………And Chuck Heston is dead, we’re screwed.

[Moonlight Graham]

I heard that the $92B includes other costs related to national security.

What does "other costs" mean? Are we talking foreign wars re: Afghanistan

[capricorn]

What does "other costs" mean? Are we talking foreign wars re: Afghanistan

According to the link I provided, yes.

[Saipan]

All airline pilots? Many are ex-air force or currently serving with the ANG/Reserves, but no multi-engine American or Canadian air force personal get the same level of small arms training as RCMP/ATF/US Marshall service/FBI etc……….let alone training in the use of a firearm in such a confined space.

Yes, they are. Nothing happen before they were disarmed. Btw, name one RCMP in Olympic shooting team.

Have you heard of pilot shooting accidentaly into the floor? Well "hightly trained" cop guarding the Queen on a train did

So you think WTC attack is better than armed pilots?

Why don't the windows roll down in a airline?

Friggin draft?

But sometimes the whole part of ceiling rolls out

A Taser is just as effective in stoping a person and a .22 LR is a subsonic, low velocity round.

Why do you think police went from 9mm to 40 S&W ?

[Saipan]

Which one looks deadlier to you? Can you tell the difference? Ones used by the FBI, the other won’t punch holes through a plane.

#1

#2

And what that has to do with anything at all?

[Guest Derek L]

Yes, they are. Nothing happen before they were disarmed. Btw, name one RCMP in Olympic shooting team.

Have you heard of pilot shooting accidentaly into the floor? Well "hightly trained" cop guarding the Queen on a train did

So you think WTC attack is better than armed pilots?

Competitive shooting and law enforcement/tactical training is apples and oranges....Obviously, those acting as sky marshals have undergone SWAT/ERT training from their parent organisations.

How many Air Canada/Delta/South West etc pilots go through Quantico?

Do you think the WTC attack is better than armed police placed onboard airliners?

Why do you think police went from 9mm to 40 S&W ?

Stopping power..........A 9/10 mm is overkill on board an airliner, they wouldn't have to worry about being outgunned on board an airliner.

.22 LR/Taser vs box cutter?

And what that has to do with anything at all?

From ~10' away, they look alike, but the M&P 22 won’t cause an uncontrolled decompression of the plane and a .22LR round in the head will stop a durka-durka just as well as a 9mm, 10, or .357.

If you’re worried about stopping power onboard a plane, why not give the pilots an 870

[Saipan]

Competitive shooting and law enforcement/tactical training is apples and oranges....

No, shoot for example IPSC competition and find out.

Btw, do you think some idiot like Roszko was better than FOUR well trained RCMPs?

Do you think the WTC attack is better than armed police placed onboard airliners?

That was my question. It didn't have to happen at all if it wasn't for anti-fireram fanatics. People like Wendy Cukier or Sarah Brady are responsible for all those deaths and untimately Afghanistan war..

M&P 22 won’t cause an uncontrolled decompression of the plane

What did?

[Guest Derek L]

No, shoot for example IPSC competition and find out.

I do......With my M&P 40 and 686.......difference being, the targets are not going to take control of a plane.

Btw, do you think some idiot like Roszko was better than FOUR well trained RCMPs?

In a emergency, do you call the police or Westjet?

That was my question. It didn't have to happen at all if it wasn't for anti-fireram fanatics. People like Wendy Cukier or Sarah Brady are responsible for all those deaths and untimately Afghanistan war..

Do you think Sarah's husband could have taken control of an aircraft after his run in with a .22LR?

What did?

How many firearms have been used discharged on board an airline by law enforcement?

Edited September 9, 2011 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

US Airways Pilot's Gun Fires In Cockpit

It is the first time a pilot's weapon has been fired on a plane under a program created after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to allow pilots and others to use a firearm to defend against any act of air piracy or criminal violence, he said.

The TSA initially opposed the Flight Deck Officer program to arm and train cockpit personnel. Agency officials worried that introducing a weapon to commercial flights was dangerous and that other security improvements made it unnecessary. Congress and pilots backed the program.

"The TSA has never been real supportive of this program," said Mike Boyd, who runs the Colorado-based aviation consulting firm The Boyd Group. "It's something I think Congress kind of put on them."

"If that bullet had compromised the shell of the airplane, i.e., gone through a window, the airplane could have gone down," he said.

[bush_cheney2004]

US Airways Pilot's Gun Fires In Cockpit

I think the TSA guy is exaggerating the risk...pressurized cabins at altitude already have a "hole" (outflow valve). US air marshals use a special safety slug that frags like bird shot.

This Goldfinger scene has forever perpetuated a myth:

Edited September 9, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[dre]

That has nothing to do with security on the ship, which I believe is what was being referenced. It has nothing to do with the cruise ship's security, period, as that would involve marine law and the legality of small ships being able to buzz big ships.

The USS Cole didn't result in casualties in the thousands, which was the comment/idea I was responding to. And I doubt the ship would sink instantaneously - survivors of the blast could make it to lifeboats. It's a different situation from taking out a plane. But again, you are speaking of a different situation than 'security on a cruise ship.'

And my life has gone on ...... pretty much without fear - or obsession. No "stupidity" ruining the quality of my life. I have no problem with security on a plane, and am glad it's been heightened. But then, I don't claim to know what "terrorists know." I don't claim to know "their whole plan." As such, I find it interesting that you apparently do.

Okay. If you say so ..........

You're backing up my claim.

Which again, is a different issue from the one I was referring to ...........

That has nothing to do with security on the ship, which I believe is what was being referenced. It has nothing to do with the cruise ship's security, period, as that would involve marine law and the legality of small ships being able to buzz big ships.

Regardless of how you want to classify that threat, its the most important one they face, and their biggest vulnerability.

Youre statement was just flat out wrong... here it is again...

The only way they could kill as many people on a cruise ship is to have a bomb in their suitcase

Thats NOT the only way.

The USS Cole didn't result in casualties in the thousands, which was the comment/idea I was responding to.

The coal was an armored military vessel and tiny craft loaded with exploses was able to blow the side off the ship.

And my life has gone on ...... pretty much without fear - or obsession. No "stupidity" ruining the quality of my life. I have no problem with security on a plane, and am glad it's been heightened. But then, I don't claim to know what "terrorists know." I don't claim to know "their whole plan." As such, I find it interesting that you apparently do.

Well its not a big secret. Theyve pretty much openly announced what it is, and its pretty much the same as what any guerilla movement tries to do. They dont try to beat the superior power in direct battle. Their attacks are designed cause you to incur massive costs through your own actions. If you spend a billion for every million they spend then youll go broke in the long term, and they will win by attrition.

So far a ragtag bunch of low tech poorly funded arabs has been able to cause the most powerfull country in the world to spend trillions of dollars of borrowed money, create huge new permanent branches of government that will be taking your money for hundreds of years to come, and caused you to take on two costly building invasion/nation building projects.

Your kids will still be trying to pay for all this stuff long after youre dead.

[Guest Derek L]

I think the TSA guy is exaggerating the risk...pressurized cabins at altitude already have a "hole" (outflow valve). US air marshals use a special safety slug that frags like bird shot.

For sure, and barring a window hit, a bullet size hole through the fuselage will take longer to decompress the cabin then it would for the plane to descend below 10K feet………Hardly any Goldfinger(?) moments…

But my point is that I’d have more faith in a police officer trained in close quarter combat then a pilot with a weekend course at the Hilton conference center.

LOL I new it Goldfinger

Edited September 9, 2011 by Derek L

[bush_cheney2004]

...The coal was an armored military vessel and tiny craft loaded with exploses was able to blow the side off the ship.

Not so fast...the hulls of Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyers are not armoured amidships at the water line. What little armour there is happens to be positioned topside for key compartments (e.g. CIC) and magazines. 500-700 pounds of high explosive will put a large hole in nearly any hull if placed as close at the "tiny craft" was to the USS Cole. A smaller shaped charge would easily breach the hull as well.

Edited September 9, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

Not so fast...the hulls of Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyers are not armoured amidships at the water line. What little armour there is happens to positioned topside for key compartments (e.g. CIC) and magazines. 500-700 pounds of high explosive will put a large hole in nearly any hull if placed as close at the "tiny craft" was to the USS Cole. A smaller shaped charge would easily breach the hull as well.

But the USS COLE wasn’t underway, and obviously pre 9/11.……I wouldn’t think it prudent to come zooming in on a USN vessel today, unannounced, screaming Dirka-Dirka Muhammad Jihad…….Good way to be introduced to the CIWS and 25 mike-mike.

[bush_cheney2004]

But the USS COLE wasn’t underway, and obviously pre 9/11.……I wouldn’t think it prudent to come zooming in on a USN vessel today, unannounced, screaming Dirka-Dirka Muhammad Jihad…….Good way to be introduced to the CIWS and 25 mike-mike.

The crew of the USS Cole failed to follow their own operating procedures, and conflicting policy for topside watches with loaded ammunition for the 5th Fleet contributed to a lax stance. The skiff should have never gotten so close. The ship's skipper should have been sacked, IMHO.

[Guest Derek L]

The crew of the USS Cole failed to follow their own operating procedures, and conflicting policy for topside watches with loaded ammunition for the 5th Fleet contributed to a lax stance. The skiff should have never gotten so close. The ship's skipper should have been sacked, IMHO.

But couldn’t one argue the ROE where more to blame? In the end the 17 that lost their lives, like many before them, have shown deficiencies in modern navies (militaries) strategies towards force protection……..No different then us sending the first few roto’s over to the dirt box in the Iltis etc

[bush_cheney2004]

But couldn’t one argue the ROE where more to blame? In the end the 17 that lost their lives, like many before them, have shown deficiencies in modern navies (militaries) strategies towards force protection……..No different then us sending the first few roto’s over to the dirt box in the Iltis etc

Not in the case of the Cole...there are standard procedures for warships to follow going in/out of port and while moored, especially when port services do not include a secure wharf or refueling pier in "hostile waters".

[Guest Derek L]

Not in the case of the Cole...there are standard procedures for warships to follow going in/out of port and while moored, especially when port services do not include a secure wharf or refueling pier in "hostile waters".

If that was the case, then yes, their CO should have been held responsible……Even pre 9/11, putting into Yemen, one would think extra crew on watch keeping/small arms etc would be the norm……I was always under the impression that the crew did spot the boat (and where armed with pintle mounted M-60s) but needed permission to shoot from their CO/XO and didn’t receive that……to me, that would seem like ROE

[Moonlight Graham]

According to the link I provided, yes.

Woops, sorry missed the link you posted. thanks.

[bush_cheney2004]

If that was the case, then yes, their CO should have been held responsible……Even pre 9/11, putting into Yemen, one would think extra crew on watch keeping/small arms etc would be the norm……I was always under the impression that the crew did spot the boat (and where armed with pintle mounted M-60s) but needed permission to shoot from their CO/XO and didn’t receive that……to me, that would seem like ROE

It never should have gotten that far...security services and planning should have been in place before the Cole entered port. Engaging the skiff with small arms is the last resort after other procedures have failed, and wouldn't have necessarily kept the skiff from coming close aboard anyway. Port calls always sucked that way...we didn't want to appear as hostile to the locals, but you can't let them come so close...not even if they take their tops off!

[eyeball]

It never should have gotten that far...security services and planning should have been in place before the Cole entered port. Engaging the skiff with small arms is the last resort after other procedures have failed, and wouldn't have necessarily kept the skiff from coming close aboard anyway. Port calls always sucked that way...we didn't want to appear as hostile to the locals, but you can't let them come so close...not even if they take their tops off!

You'd need fast escort boats that could intercept small boats before they get close enough to a warship or a passenger vessel.

Both are common enough in addition to the large mosquito fleet of sporties and recreational boaters roaring around off Vancouver Island for example. ROE that included shooting small boats that approach too closely would result in boats being blown out of the water on a daily basis around here. Take the number of amateurs alone that simply don't understand the fundamentals of avoiding a collision - who imagine they have the right of way because they're trolling for example.

It's just a good thing I only have a ship's horn instead of a battery of Exocet missiles.

[Guest Derek L]

It never should have gotten that far...security services and planning should have been in place before the Cole entered port. Engaging the skiff with small arms is the last resort after other procedures have failed, and wouldn't have necessarily kept the skiff from coming close aboard anyway. Port calls always sucked that way...we didn't want to appear as hostile to the locals, but you can't let them come so close...not even if they take their tops off!

ie. Force protection