Are Corporations Evil ?

[bush_cheney2004]

We are but cattle to be milked by the corporations - they will even kill us in an undeclared war all in the hope of profits in the security and weapons buisness.

Awww...shucks. Do feel like a plastic bag....blowing down the street? Rise up...and become a weapons business firework!

[CitizenX]

bush_cheney2004 something I've noticed is you don't seem capable of contributing to any topics. You add your one or two sentence comments that contain no substance. Your title is "senior mocker" which seems to sum you up. What is the point of your existence on this forum other that to be some sort of heckler of others views without contributing your own. It's kind of sad

[bush_cheney2004]

bush_cheney2004 something I've noticed is you don't seem capable of contributing to any topics. You add your one or two sentence comments that contain no substance.

If you mean I won't kiss your ass...that's right...I won't. My brand of provocative engagement predates your rookie status 'round here.

Your title is "senior mocker" which seems to sum you up.

Brilliant...you win a cookie!

What is the point of your existence on this forum other that to be some sort of heckler of others views without contributing your own. It's kind of sad

I love that...an authentic Canadian (and very smug)..."sad". What I "contribute" has been well established over thousands of posts...some serious...some not...but always...American!

[jacee]

Ya the Bush_Cheney thing is just a bit past its best before date.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ya the Bush_Cheney thing is just a bit past its best before date.

That's what they all say...rookie.

[CitizenX]

This topic has started going off the rails. The question was, do you believe corporations are evil.

1) What is your definition of evil?

2) What kind of entity is a corporation? It is legally a person.

3) Can you affix the word evil to the concept Corporation?

Back on track

[GostHacked]

Some corporations are indeed evil.

Monsantos for one comes to mind.

[CitizenX]

Some corporations are indeed evil.

Monsantos for one comes to mind.

So is are these private tyrannies acceptable? Are they a necessary evil? I don't believe so, do you?

A great book to read is Life Inc. How Corporatism Conquered the World, and How We Can Take It Back

Whether we like it or not, Americans are almost completely dependent on corporations to make their daily lives run. From the places we buy groceries, to the cars we drive, to the little niceties that make life more pleasant - Giant corporations have their hand in almost every aspect of our daily routines. But things don't have to be this way. Mike Papantonio of Air America's Ring of Fire talks about how things got so bad, and what we can do to take our lives back with Douglas Rushkoff, author of the new book "Life, Incorporated: How the World Became a Corporation, and How to Take it Back." - golefttv

Edited September 13, 2011 by CitizenX

[GostHacked]

So is are these private tyrannies acceptable? Are they a necessary evil? I don't believe so, do you?

No they are not a necessary evil. In the case of Monsantos, there is no benefit to farmers when they have to purchase seed every year because of something like Monsantos' terminator seed (not viable for next years crops). Farming used to be self sustainable for the most part because farmers would be able to harvest the crops and save some of the seeds for next years crops, that is no longer the case.

Monstanos controls a lot of what gets to your table these days. They have patents on their genetically modified seeds, yet claim that the seed is indistinguishable from an organic/real seed. But there seems to be enough differences to claim a patent on it.

Monsantos is a perfect example of a 'neccessary evil' that does not need to be.

[CitizenX]

I agree completely GostHacked. I'm sure you have seen this documentary but I'll post it anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH4OwBYDQe8

One solution to this problem is to fight to remove their personhood.

Another is to boycott as many corporations as possible. Buy Local, and Support small businesses.

Another is to stop acting like a consumer, and start acting like a morally and ethically responsible human being.

Edited September 13, 2011 by CitizenX

[Bonam]

Another is to boycott as many corporations as possible. Buy Local, and Support small businesses.

Another is to stop acting like a consumer, and start acting like a morally and ethically responsible human being.

Please, go buy your computer from a manufacturer that isn't a corporation. Get your car built by the local mom and pop shop. Stop your subscription to your ISP's internet service, cancel your account with the phone company, and get the neighbor's kid to facilitate your communications by carrying letters back and forth on his bicycle.

You folks need to catch up with the times. Complex products and services, particularly those requiring investment in infrastructure, production facilities, etc, can only be provided by large businesses wielding significant capital.

[netspawn]

"... a community activated only by self-interest would be a community of ruthless profiteers"

-- from 'The Worldly Philosophers' by Robert Heilbroner

.

On 29Aug CitizenX say: It is my view that Corporations are evil entities ...

Corporations are inherently and intrinsically evil entities (persons) <snip>

.

netspawn say: I think it is extremely absurd to consider Corporations to be in any way "persons" as such; whether this is merely a convenient legal fiction or otherwise. Corporations are basically just machines; more complex than cars and smart-phones to be sure, but machines just the same. And as machines they are ethically neutral. Now some people think that guns are evil because their "purpose" is to harm and kill people and other living creatures, but guns are simply tools that can be used for good or ill depending on the will and intentions of the wielder. It's the same story with Corporations. If they commit evil acts it is only because the owners and managers will it to be that way. The responsibility for the evil committed by Corporations thus belongs not to the Corporations as such, but rather to those who own and run them.

.

CX: The reason that corporations are able to get away with evil acts is because the owners (shareholders) turn a blind eye to their actions. They defer responsibility away from themselves for how their investments are used. They only want to make money, and don't really care where it comes from. <snip>

.

Exactly! This is the true beauty of the Corporation. It is not only built to be a money-making machine, but it is also deliberately designed to deflect responsibility away from those who are in fact responsible for all the actions of the Corporation (ie. the owners and employees). The fact that responsibility is attributed to "fictional persons" rather than the real people who own and work for the Corporations is the fault of inadequate and unjust laws and regulations that favor the wealthy and powerful over the common good. These Rich-Ones get the lawmakers to make those evil-laws that favor their interests, just as they craft the policies and directives of the Corporations so as to serve their own interests regardless of any pain they may cause to others. These Rich-Ones are the true source of all the evil that the Corporations commit. They care nothing for the greater-good of society, or the welfare of civilization as a whole. And they are also masters of self-deception. They sleep at night by telling themselves that they are not responsible for the actions of the Frankenstein-monsters that they have created and unleashed upon the world.

.

CX: Herein Lies the Problem, and part of the reason that Corporations do evil. A CEO's job is to create profits by any means, if he/she fails they are replaced. This creates an evolutionary system where the most ethically delinquent, narcissistic, morally corrupt persons rise to the top. None of whom will take any legal responsibility for the actions of the Corporation. <snip>

.

Western society is dominated and ruled by the Rich-Ones (and their political minions). They are the minority that controls the political machinery of law-making; and those who control the Law control society. This anonymous elite of the rich and powerful are evil because they care only for themselves, and this childish and selfish evil within them is expressed in evil laws that favor their monstrous bastards (ie. the Corporations), and in evil laws that are oppressive and destructive of society as a whole (eg. the stupid and draconian war-on-drugs). The CEO's are simply hired-guns and mercenaries whose job it is to drive their corporate-machines toward "success". Unfortunately, what is "good" and "successful" for the ruling elite is evil and destructive for everybody else; and it is future generations, and the planet itself, who will ultimately pay a terrible price for the criminal avarice of this current generation of elite scumbags.

.

Republican presidential candidate Buddy Roemer say: … our electoral system is sick. You can't tackle the jobs problem, the tax problem, the budget problem till you tackle the root - money and politics. They [the politicians] spend their time getting big checks from big special interests. These special interests - corporations - write the tax code; it doesn't work for America. Jobs are being stolen from Americans, being given away in unfair trade; and no one does anything. You know why? American companies have never made more money, but they really don't give a damn about the rest of America.

.

And yet the People seem to be entirely ignorant of the true nature of their condition, and completely unaware of the dangers hanging by a thread over their collective head. After all, they just want to be rich too. They care no more for the future and the planet than the Rich-Ones do. They too are guilty; guilty of the same evil of gross stupidity and rampant greed. And if they are just the same as the Rich-Ones in nature and intention, do they not also share the unwanted burden of responsibility for the evil actions of amoral Corporations? If the Corporations are evil, it is only because we want them to be evil. We like it that way. That's why we build them this way, when we *could* build them to be machines that actually benefit society as a whole, and promote the greater good.

.

So the evil lies not with the Corporations, but with us - with ALL of us - not just the Rich-Ones who are joyously killing us all one centimeter at a time. Yes, the American dream is embodied in a single individual who manifests the very essence and being of our "great" society. The soul of America is perfectly expressed in none other than Dick Fuld (the former CEO of Lehman Brothers) who (along with others of his ilk) caused the recent meltdown of the global financial system!

[GostHacked]

I agree completely GostHacked. I'm sure you have seen this documentary but I'll post it anyway.

One solution to this problem is to fight to remove their personhood.

Another is to boycott as many corporations as possible. Buy Local, and Support small businesses.

Another is to stop acting like a consumer, and start acting like a morally and ethically responsible human being.

I've also bought/read the book, Monsantos is a very very scary corporation.

Alternatives are getting less and less. Corportations like Monsantos buy up smaller companies, and shut some down to avoid competition. They do genetically modified seeds, and previous organic sustainable farming is a threat to their bottom line.

Much of what you buy and eat in grocery stores these days are GMO foods. I always ask the question, 'When and why did organic become an option?'

[CitizenX]

netspawn say: I think it is extremely absurd to consider Corporations to be in any way "persons" as such; whether this is merely a convenient legal fiction or otherwise. Corporations are basically just machines; more complex than cars and smart-phones to be sure, but machines just the same. And as machines they are ethically neutral. Now some people think that guns are evil because their "purpose" is to harm and kill people and other living creatures, but guns are simply tools that can be used for good or ill depending on the will and intentions of the wielder. It's the same story with Corporations. If they commit evil acts it is only because the owners and managers will it to be that way. The responsibility for the evil committed by Corporations thus belongs not to the Corporations as such, but rather to those who own and run them.

I don't think that you can compare a corporation to a gun. Guns are not considered persons under the law. If someone shoots another person with a gun the individual that was in control of the gun is charged. People that is in control of a corporation are not legally responsible for the actions of the corporation they control.

Corporations are not just "machines". They are a group of people, and of course groups of people can be evil. Examples include the KKK, the Nazi's, ect. But in this case it's like the Nazi's committing horrible acts but not being legally responsible for them because it's the organizations fault.

[CitizenX]

Please, go buy your computer from a manufacturer that isn't a corporation. Get your car built by the local mom and pop shop. Stop your subscription to your ISP's internet service, cancel your account with the phone company, and get the neighbor's kid to facilitate your communications by carrying letters back and forth on his bicycle.

You folks need to catch up with the times. Complex products and services, particularly those requiring investment in infrastructure, production facilities, etc, can only be provided by large businesses wielding significant capital.

You are obviously comfortable with the amount of power that these entities wields. You don't seem to be concerned with any immoral acts that they might commit, as long as you get your cheap products.

Yes we live in a world where it's near impossible to get by without using them in some way. This is what concerns me.

Edited September 14, 2011 by CitizenX

[Bonam]

You are obviously comfortable with the amount of power that these entities wields.

Yes, I think having power split between government organizations and private enterprises certainly makes sense. The more ways power is split up, the better. Thousands of corporations, each wielding power, each with competing interests, interacting with all kinds of other groups that also wield power (governments, individual voters, unions, special interests, non-profits, etc) means power is less likely to be abused in any one particular direction. When the government holds all the power and private enterprise holds none, you get communism. When private entities hold all the power and the government holds none, you have anarchy. What we have is pretty close to a happy medium.

[dre]

Yes, I think having power split between government organizations and private enterprises certainly makes sense. The more ways power is split up, the better. Thousands of corporations, each wielding power, each with competing interests, interacting with all kinds of other groups that also wield power (governments, individual voters, unions, special interests, non-profits, etc) means power is less likely to be abused in any one particular direction. When the government holds all the power and private enterprise holds none, you get communism. When private entities hold all the power and the government holds none, you have anarchy. What we have is pretty close to a happy medium.

Yes, I think having power split between government organizations and private enterprises certainly makes sense. The more ways power is split up, the better.

Power should be split between voters, and temporarily vested in Government between elections. Otherwise youre allocating power based on wealth, which has turned out to be a complete disaster in the past.

That is of course why only private citizens are given a vote. ALL other special interests should be on the outside looking in, except for very limited participation that happens in a very supervised way.

[Shady]

Another is to boycott as many corporations as possible. Buy Local, and Support small businesses.

Another is to stop acting like a consumer, and start acting like a morally and ethically responsible human being.

Corporations can be and are local. Corporations can be and are small businesses. I'm not sure you know what corporatoins really are. Or, you have a pre-conceived notion of some cookie-cutter image. In Ontario it takes a whole $360 dollars to incorporate your business. What exactly is evil about that? I have friend that incorporated his business, he has two employees. Him and his wife. I have a relative that incorporated his business. He has 10 employees. Are they evil? Should the be boycotted? Why? If not, why not?

The ultimate answer to your question is that some people are evil. And some evil people happen to run corporations, or teach kids, or do lost of things. You're confusing the acts of individuals with their titles or the institutions they work for or beling to.

I think this pretty much ends this sophomoric thread.

[CitizenX]

Corporations can be and are local. Corporations can be and are small businesses. I'm not sure you know what corporatoins really are. Or, you have a pre-conceived notion of some cookie-cutter image. In Ontario it takes a whole $360 dollars to incorporate your business. What exactly is evil about that? I have friend that incorporated his business, he has two employees. Him and his wife. I have a relative that incorporated his business. He has 10 employees. Are they evil? Should the be boycotted? Why? If not, why not?

The ultimate answer to your question is that some people are evil. And some evil people happen to run corporations, or teach kids, or do lost of things. You're confusing the acts of individuals with their titles or the institutions they work for or beling to.

I think this pretty much ends this sophomoric thread.

Why don't start on page 1 and look at what I'm talking about before you pop off. As far as being "pretty much ends this sophomoric thread", It's over for you when ever stop reading or replying to it. It's a philosophical Thread and may be over your head anyway, but thanks anyway here's your participaction pin.

[Jack Weber]

Why don't start on page 1 and look at what I'm talking about before you pop off. As far as being "pretty much ends this sophomoric thread", It's over for you when ever stop reading or replying to it. It's a philosophical Thread and may be over your head anyway, but thanks anyway here's your participaction pin.

The dreaded participation pin for The Professor(shady)...

By the way,philosophy,like almost everything else,is wwwwwaaaaaaayyyy over his head...

[Bonam]

Power should be split between voters, and temporarily vested in Government between elections.

No, I don't believe that power should be vested solely in government even in between locations. Government should never hold all the power, between elections or otherwise. Voters having power is a good ideal, but in practice, individuals do not have the resources to influence policy. However, groups of individuals do. The only way for voters to wield their power is by joining up with other voters in various groups. These groups can be non-profits, protests, unions, and, yes, corporations too. Now, the extent of the influence that they have can certainly be looked into, but you can bet that individuals will always band together with other likeminded individuals and use their resources to try to shape society towards how they believe it should be.

[netspawn]

Bonam say: ... When the government holds all the power and private enterprise holds none, you get communism. When private entities hold all the power and the government holds none, you have anarchy. What we have is pretty close to a happy medium.

Actually, Bonam, I do believe that you are wrong in several important respects. Firstly, the use of the term 'power' is (or can be) very misleading, since it's not so much 'power' that matters, but rather 'control'. Those who control the political apparatus of law-making do, in fact, control (or 'have power over', if you wish) society (both economically and culturally). So it's not a question of holding 'government' and 'business' in check by maintaining some sort of balance between them. There is no "happy medium", for the actual rulers of our society control BOTH government and business. And that is where the true power lies ... with the plutonomists (as they are called by some). So what we have is unparalled freedom and liberty for a tiny minority of god-like beings, and what is essentially slavery for everybody else (in varying degrees, of course). If the people are ignorant these realities, then perhaps they can be happy; otherwise ...

[bloodyminded]

The ultimate answer to your question is that some people are evil. And some evil people happen to run corporations, or teach kids, or do lost of things. You're confusing the acts of individuals with their titles or the institutions they work for or beling to.

I think this pretty much ends this sophomoric thread.

No, you've got it exactly backwards. The problem isn't, or not usually, with a few "evil individuals" cackling wildly as they perform horrendous deeds. The vast majority of individuals working within corporations are as normal and decent as anyone else.

It's an institutional issue, in the same way that honest and intelligent journalists can pormote statist propaganda without quite seeing it this way.

[Shady]

Why don't start on page 1 and look at what I'm talking about before you pop off. As far as being "pretty much ends this sophomoric thread", It's over for you when ever stop reading or replying to it. It's a philosophical Thread and may be over your head anyway, but thanks anyway here's your participaction pin.

How about instead of personal attacks, you just answer my questions.

[Shady]

No, you've got it exactly backwards. The problem isn't, or not usually, with a few "evil individuals" cackling wildly as they perform horrendous deeds. The vast majority of individuals working within corporations are as normal and decent as anyone else.

It's an institutional issue, in the same way that honest and intelligent journalists can pormote statist propaganda without quite seeing it this way.

I actually agree with you. That's what I was trying to say. It's not a black and white issue, it's shades of grey.